PvP 'skill' - about as much skill to ride a bike

Wamdue_EU · 04-09-2006 06:50 PM

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no he argued it requires the same skill as riding a bike i agreed (being sarcastic cos i completely disagree with Hobo) saying there are basically as many levels to riding a bike as there are in PvP

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There aren't many levels of how to ride a bike, you get on and pedal - as long as you have a sense of balance you can do it.

Tour de France is how fit you are, BMX Championships is how much you can say "dude" with a bandana round your forehead.

Archy · 04-09-2006 07:37 PM

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It doesn't exist, stop fooling yourselves.

PvP is so damn easy in this game it isn't even funny. Get a good build, get one or two tips and start having Arena matches/stepping into PvP zones. I give it about a week before you know practically everything you need to know.

Tactics? Teamwork? Co-ordination?

Get Teamspeak and your troubles are solved. Or take a typing class so you can type quickly in Teamchat, maybe make a few binds.

Skill?

What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?

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So? What you're saying is that some guy who has just bought a lvl 50 toon on eBay with the exact same build as you would stand a 50/50 chance against you (after a weeks practice maybe?)?

SingStar:
"Extremists LOVE to fish to get us annoyed so we break the forum rules."
CRACK68:
"The origin of life wasn't planned either, should all life be declared a bug and wiped out?"
Lionsbane:
"You know me.Ever the realist"

Gani_ · 04-09-2006 08:42 PM

I think its more a question about knowing the AT and the powers. Know their strenghts and know their weaknesses. I do believe there is some form of 'skill' involved still.

Put two different players with the exact same builds against each other and skill will still play a certain part imo. Keeping your head cool and remembering what to use and when to use it etc.

A big missunderstanding that seems to happen alot is that some people tend to forget that which AT you put up against each other does matter. So going you got no 'skill' to someone because you were playing a /nrg blapper against a /therm corrupter for instance, just doesn't make much sense to me

Knowledge - Archetype - Skill

All play their role IMO

Gani_ · 04-09-2006 08:53 PM

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Perfectly put. I'd add one more though - a good sense of sportsmanship.

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Just read the responses and have to say I definately agree here. That to me is actually the single most important one

Silver_Weasel · 04-09-2006 09:06 PM

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IMO 3 things are essential for PvPing well.

Game knowlegde

Reflexes, or movement

Imagination

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I'd also add Machiavellian/Sun Tzu thoughts to good manners, but that's about it

One particular blaster stood within the Longbow, daring me to get him.

I used my stealth suit, snuck up behind him, held him to the floor and beat seven bells out of him before Longbow could react.

Zerging takes no more skill than the ape pusing the button; crushing a good opponent without resorting to cheap shots takes a lot of skill.

X_treme · 04-10-2006 06:59 AM

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no he argued it requires the same skill as riding a bike i agreed (being sarcastic cos i completely disagree with Hobo) saying there are basically as many levels to riding a bike as there are in PvP

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There aren't many levels of how to ride a bike, you get on and pedal - as long as you have a sense of balance you can do it.

Tour de France is how fit you are, BMX Championships is how much you can say "dude" with a bandana round your forehead.

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if u say so

Synaesthetix · 04-10-2006 07:19 AM

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if u say so

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Smile and nod X, just smile and nod.

@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD

"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love

Frazzle_d · 04-10-2006 09:52 AM

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You may not need 'PvP skill', but you do need game skill.

I'm mostly PvE'er, but the times I have ventured to PvP zones I've fared fairly well, with totally PvE builds, as I know how the game works, which IMO is enough.

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Addition to the above post;

if you play your character how you like it, how you're comfortable with playing your character, and fight like it's went [censored] in PvE like it couldn't possibly get any worse, you'll do fine.

If you look at the combat logs, you'd be surprised at how much you actually did, and for how long.

Gorgog · 04-10-2006 11:01 AM

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Quote:
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It doesn't exist, stop fooling yourselves.

PvP is so damn easy in this game it isn't even funny. Get a good build, get one or two tips and start having Arena matches/stepping into PvP zones. I give it about a week before you know practically everything you need to know.

Tactics? Teamwork? Co-ordination?

Get Teamspeak and your troubles are solved. Or take a typing class so you can type quickly in Teamchat, maybe make a few binds.

Skill?

What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?

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So? What you're saying is that some guy who has just bought a lvl 50 toon on eBay with the exact same build as you would stand a 50/50 chance against you (after a weeks practice maybe?)?

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Think it really just shows that most the time its not so much skill that wins fights but lack of skill that losses em. Oh and after a week of practice? Yup, why not? If you have a PvP mindset and do nothing other then PvP for a week solidly there isnt much reason why you cant be as good as anyone else, seems to me thats the point of the thread, to suggest that it doesnt take long to do, oh and to get people to argue over an old and well debated point.

Suggestion for nxt post on PvP skill: "PvP = BF,Tab,f,1,4,Respite,2,6,Respite,4,2,"oh crap",luck,luck,luck,luck,respite,3,6,2,gloat over corpse on broadcast." .

Imaginary_EU · 04-10-2006 12:01 PM

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Quote:
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It doesn't exist, stop fooling yourselves.

PvP is so damn easy in this game it isn't even funny. Get a good build, get one or two tips and start having Arena matches/stepping into PvP zones. I give it about a week before you know practically everything you need to know.

Tactics? Teamwork? Co-ordination?

Get Teamspeak and your troubles are solved. Or take a typing class so you can type quickly in Teamchat, maybe make a few binds.

Skill?

What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?

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So? What you're saying is that some guy who has just bought a lvl 50 toon on eBay with the exact same build as you would stand a 50/50 chance against you (after a weeks practice maybe?)?

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Think it really just shows that most the time its not so much skill that wins fights but lack of skill that losses em. Oh and after a week of practice? Yup, why not? If you have a PvP mindset and do nothing other then PvP for a week solidly there isnt much reason why you cant be as good as anyone else, seems to me thats the point of the thread, to suggest that it doesnt take long to do, oh and to get people to argue over an old and well debated point.

Suggestion for nxt post on PvP skill: "PvP = BF,Tab,f,1,4,Respite,2,6,Respite,4,2,"oh [censored]",luck,luck,luck,luck,respite,3,6,2,gloat over corpse on broadcast." .

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Im getting tired of this, wanna meet me in the arena to show me your correct or are you afraid.

50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr

Slazenger · 04-10-2006 01:03 PM

Show me the skill involved when your villian has 8 heroes breathing down his neck.
Only way that i know to survive is just not to enter the zone and no skill involved there just common sense.

Too many 50's to list here's a few you may know.
Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt

_Organi_ · 04-10-2006 01:25 PM

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Suggestion for nxt post on PvP skill: "PvP = BF,Tab,f,1,4,Respite,2,6,Respite,4,2,"oh [censored]",luck,luck,luck,luck,respite,3,6,2,gloat over corpse on broadcast." .

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lmao!

Gorgog · 04-10-2006 03:35 PM

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Im getting tired of this, wanna meet me in the arena to show me your correct or are you afraid.

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You seem to have something to prove Imaginary. If you think accusing someing of being too scared to fight you will get you a fight your sadly mistaken, dont go in for manipulation myself.

At the end of the day you and I are just two players in a multi player game who both have the right to say what they like on forums as long as it does not put people down.

As far as I know ive not done that and if I have it was not intentional and please except my appologies.

Never turned down a fight but quite frankly I have no intention to fight you as I have nothing to prove at all. It is, after all, only a game. You are welcome to take that any way you wish.

X_treme · 04-10-2006 03:40 PM

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Im getting tired of this, wanna meet me in the arena to show me your correct or are you afraid.

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You seem to have something to prove Imaginary. If you think accusing someing of being too scared to fight you will get you a fight your sadly mistaken, dont go in for manipulation myself.

At the end of the day you and I are just two players in a multi player game who both have the right to say what they like on forums as long as it does not put people down.

As far as I know ive not done that and if I have it was not intentional and please except my appologies.

Never turned down a fight but quite frankly I have no intention to fight you as I have nothing to prove at all. It is, after all, only a game. You are welcome to take that any way you wish.

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lol if ur idea of PvP is :

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Suggestion for nxt post on PvP skill: "PvP = BF,Tab,f,1,4,Respite,2,6,Respite,4,2,"oh [censored]",luck,luck,luck,luck,respite,3,6,2,gloat over corpse on broadcast." .

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then i'm not supprised u wont fight him, imaginary is just trying to prove there is far more PvP skill than you think

X_treme · 04-10-2006 03:41 PM

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Show me the skill involved when your villian has 8 heroes breathing down his neck.
Only way that i know to survive is just not to enter the zone and no skill involved there just common sense.

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i have said this so many times, the zones are not the only PvP, the arena is a lot fairer and far more fun imo

Scrapapo · 04-10-2006 03:47 PM

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Im getting tired of this, wanna meet me in the arena to show me your correct or are you afraid.

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Why don't you roll something not cookie-cutter in PvP and actually prove your point? Why don't you roll a Claws Scrapper or Assault Rifle Blaster and prove there's skill involved?

If anyone can beat me, in fact, with a Claws Scrapper or Assault Rifle Blaster then I will eat my words. Until then PvP doesn't take skill. Funny how someone with an Ill/Rad and Ice/Energy in their sig says otherwise I think.

World of Jackcraft.

nightbringer_EU · 04-10-2006 04:01 PM

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Im getting tired of this, wanna meet me in the arena to show me your correct or are you afraid.

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Why don't you roll something not cookie-cutter in PvP and actually prove your point? Why don't you roll a Claws Scrapper or Assault Rifle Blaster and prove there's skill involved?

If anyone can beat me, in fact, with a Claws Scrapper or Assault Rifle Blaster then I will eat my words. Until then PvP doesn't take skill. Funny how someone with an Ill/Rad and Ice/Energy in their sig says otherwise I think.

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Thats as dumb as saying if an empaths solo'es you, then he proves his point.
You should know better Chives. Balance isnt in 1on1's.

A Paragon Defender

Scrapapo · 04-10-2006 04:08 PM

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You should know better Chives. Balance isnt in 1on1's.

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...Imag was suggesting someone to meet him in the arena, I assumed he wanted a 1v1. Didn't he?

World of Jackcraft.

Imaginary_EU · 04-10-2006 04:17 PM

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You should know better Chives. Balance isnt in 1on1's.

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...Imag was suggesting someone to meet him in the arena, I assumed he wanted a 1v1. Didn't he?

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Problem is chives, Columna(NBs spines / regen) could beat Imaginary, your lost.

Now my question is, does NB have more skill or did he just get lucky?

50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr

Scrapapo · 04-10-2006 04:23 PM

I've seen his planned build and you've seen mine. Mine, to be honest is quite far off a PvP build.

World of Jackcraft.

Imaginary_EU · 04-10-2006 04:27 PM

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I've seen his planned build and you've seen mine. Mine, to be honest is quite far off a PvP build.

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He used his PvE builds, he didnt respec yet. My point is there is loads more to PvP that just build and basic tactics.

50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr

Gorgog · 04-10-2006 04:29 PM

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Suggestion for nxt post on PvP skill: "PvP = BF,Tab,f,1,4,Respite,2,6,Respite,4,2,"oh crap",luck,luck,luck,luck,respite,3,6,2,gloat over corpse on broadcast." .

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Twas kinda a joke X, least one person saw that.

Anyway Ive just thought of a great way to end this Imaginary. Why dont you suggest an AT, any AT, TA/Archery defender for instance, we both level one to 14, that way we can have a travel power of our choice and also dont waste time leveling too far for what is basicaly a waste of time anyway.

If its about even it proves little. If on the other hand you beat me something like 14-0 then you will have certainly proven your point.

While at that level you dont have many powers to make a difference hopefully at the end of the day skill will win out .

Scrapapo · 04-10-2006 04:29 PM

For reference, here they are -

Nightbringer's:

01) --> Lunge==> Acc(1) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(50)
01) --> Fast Healing==> Heal(1)
02) --> Reconstruction==> Heal(2) Heal(3) Heal(3) Rechg(5) Rechg(5) Rechg(7)
04) --> Quick Recovery==> EndMod(4) EndMod(7) EndMod(9)
06) --> Build Up==> Rechg(6) Rechg(9) Rechg(11) TH_Buf(11) TH_Buf(13) TH_Buf(13)
08) --> Impale==> Acc(8) Acc(15) Dmg(15) Dmg(17) CentiExp(17) Rechg(19)
10) --> Dull Pain==> Heal(10) Heal(19) Heal(21) Rechg(21) Rechg(23) Rechg(23)
12) --> Confront==> Taunt(12) Taunt(27) Taunt(29) Range(29) Range(31)
14) --> Hurdle==> Jump(14) Jump(48) Jump(50)
16) --> Integration==> Heal(16) Heal(25) Heal(25) EndRdx(27)
18) --> Swift==> Run(18)
20) --> Resilience==> DmgRes(20)
22) --> Assault==> EndRdx(22)
24) --> Hasten==> Rechg(24) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
26) --> Ripper==> Acc(26) Acc(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(34) Rechg(34)
28) --> Instant Healing==> Heal(28) Heal(34) Heal(36) Rechg(36) Rechg(36) Rechg(37)
30) --> Tactics==> EndRdx(30) TH_Buf(37) TH_Buf(37)
32) --> Throw Spines==> Acc(32) Acc(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(39) Dmg(40) Rechg(40)
35) --> Combat Jumping==> Jump(35) Jump(40)
38) --> Super Speed==> EndRdx(38) Run(42) Run(42)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> TH_Buf(41) TH_Buf(42) TH_Buf(43) EndRdx(43) EndRdx(43) EndRdx(45)
44) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(44) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(46) Range(46) Range(46)
47) --> Super Jump==> EndRdx(47)
49) --> Stamina==> EndMod(49) EndMod(50)

My own -

01) --> Lunge==> Acc(1)
01) --> Fast Healing==> Heal(1) Heal(13) Heal(46)
02) --> Spine Burst==> Acc(2) Dmg(3) Dmg(3) Dmg(5) Rechg(21) Rechg(21)
04) --> Quick Recovery==> EndRec(4) EndRec(5) EndRec(23)
06) --> Reconstruction==> Rechg(6) Rechg(7) Rechg(7) Heal(15) Heal(23) Heal(31)
08) --> Impale==> Acc(8) Dmg(9) Dmg(9) Dmg(15) Rechg(31) Rechg(31)
10) --> Build Up==> Rechg(10) Rechg(11) Rechg(11)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(13)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14)
16) --> Integration==> Heal(16) Heal(17) Heal(17) EndRdx(37)
18) --> Dull Pain==> Rechg(18) Rechg(19) Rechg(19) Heal(34) Heal(37) Heal(37)
20) --> Hurdle==> Jump(20)
22) --> Health==> Heal(22)
24) --> Stamina==> EndRec(24) EndRec(25) EndRec(25)
26) --> Ripper==> Acc(26) Dmg(27) Dmg(27) Dmg(39) Rechg(40) Rechg(40)
28) --> Instant Healing==> Heal(28) Heal(29) Heal(29) Rechg(40) Rechg(43) Rechg(50)
30) --> Kick==> Acc(30)
32) --> Throw Spines==> Acc(32) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) Rechg(34) Rechg(34)
35) --> Tough==> DmgRes(35) DmgRes(36) DmgRes(36) EndRdx(36)
38) --> Moment Of Glory==> DmgRes(38) DefBuf(39) DefBuf(39)
41) --> Focused Accuracy==> EndRdx(41) EndRdx(42) EndRdx(42) TH_Buf(42) TH_Buf(43) TH_Buf(43)
44) --> Laser Beam Eyes==> Acc(44) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) Rechg(46) Rechg(46)
47) --> Energy Torrent==> Acc(47) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Dmg(48) Rechg(50) Rechg(50)
49) --> Resilience==> DmgRes(49)

Now tell me that his build isn't as well geared to beating what an Ill/Rad can throw out. I don't know about you but looking at both these, I'd say the first is a little better geared towards fighting Ill/Rads, and generally in PvP altogether. Wouldn't you?

World of Jackcraft.

Imaginary_EU · 04-10-2006 04:36 PM

Make it lvl 22 and you have a deal. PvP on lower levels is a bit lame, unless its teams.

My point is that there is game knowlegde as skill so we just take the same power set and you figure a build out and I figure a build out. Builds have to suite playstyle as well.

Im up for any ATs that can actually kill each other.

I suggest ice / dev blasters, cause I wanna level one of those at some point for sirens.

I should be ready in about a week.

50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr

QiSnake · 04-10-2006 04:43 PM

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Thats as dumb as saying if an empaths solo'es you, then he proves his point.

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And its almost as dumb as saying "If I can beat you in a fight, my view must be correct". Even given that the subject is PVP fighting, being able to beat someone doesnt necessarily mean your view of it all is accurate. Not trying to sound nasty towards Imaginary there at all, just making a point.

I still think that a load of people think there is no skill in PVP, simply because the majority of skill is down to good manuevering, timing, and team awareness. Its simply the way that PVP plays out in this game. Some people only feel something is truly skillful, if it is more demanding on the part of the player. Its the feeling of automation that subtracts from the feeling of really having done something skillful, or accomplished something more than an average win. This may be one of the reasons why excessive fleeing is so frustrating to some people, because when you have a 1on1 fight (when by luck, there are no interruptions), if you struggle and win, you actually feel like you've overcome some kind of obstacle and earned that KO. In other battles, no matter how finely timed, well manuevered, or well planned/executed the battle, there is no real sense of achievement.

You have to learn the skill before you can do it. To a well-practiced acrobat, two consecutive backflips isnt something skillful at all, its just routine. To an average sloppy MMO player like me, its skillful. Being 'skillful' can be seen as relative, from the point of the viewer. Many people who are considered barely competant in the PVP zones, may in truth be very skillful players. Perhaps some of us say there is no skill in PVP, because even when we admit that someone pulls off a very well done ambush, or an intelligent chain of executed powers, or escapes or gives chase in an efficient manner... to us its not really considered skill at all, its just routine. Once you get to a certain level of play-skill, most things seem like nothing more than routine. Even if someone figures out ways of demolishing you, giving you virtually no way of fighting back. You realise that its not truly skill that they used to win over you, but intelligence, or perhaps experience.

What I see at the base of this thread, is people genuinely agreeing on some core aspects, but having different branches of thought on the matter. The REAL point of difference here, is the way we dice around with the terms, and the way we personally have come to think of that one word "skill". This may just end up being yet another agree to disagree thing, because once you stray into the zone of personal opinion, there isnt much you can do. Even then, I dont think we're here to convert one another to our own views anyway, right?