PvP 'skill' - about as much skill to ride a bike
By
Archy,
Posted on: 2006-04-09 11:47 in Everything about PvP
ha ha ha ha aha ha ha ::cough::cough::
Getting most players (at least villains) to even be aware of the team window is a hurdle of massive proportions.
"binds" ::chortle::...chest pains...collapses.
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It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when.
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According to some people...it is 
They seem to want the same easy "pick up and play" game that they get for PvE - and they aren't getting it.
See, this is the thing - I'll be the first to admit that I'm hardly the best PvP'er around, and no doubt some people will back that up (hey Syn, Bilharzia, other League members, and pretty much anyone in Sirens who's killed Wynter 
)
The difference, I suspect, between me and other PvP'ers is that I don't go in wanting to be "T3h U8er L33t PVPER!!!!" - I just go in to have a laugh, and mess about with fellow players of a game I love. Not bein particularly good at PvP doesnt bother me, so I'm not all that concerned about not having the skills that other players do.
Hmmmmm..... now I've rambled on for a while with no discernible point, I return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast 
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Skill?
What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?
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You know Hobo, you're damn right - it takes absolutely no skill to find out what the "best" build is, and no skill at all to co-ordinate attacks through TS.
The real skill is in taking underused/underpowered/non-FotM powersets, making them PvP-viable (and then some), and in being fully aware of your teammates in any situation, with or without TS, even in PuGs if necessary.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
riding a bike is still a skill and one that not all the populace can do, to build on the analogy if we give you the same outfit and bike as a olympic level cyclist you could match him?
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
what syn said, basically. Even if I do play an em/regen stalker :0
Ah well, II have fun anyway. I just want to see more variety of builds in there.
Um...I can't ride a bike....
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It doesn't exist, stop fooling yourselves.
PvP is so damn easy in this game it isn't even funny. Get a good build, get one or two tips and start having Arena matches/stepping into PvP zones. I give it about a week before you know practically everything you need to know.
Tactics? Teamwork? Co-ordination?
Get Teamspeak and your troubles are solved. Or take a typing class so you can type quickly in Teamchat, maybe make a few binds.
Skill?
What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?
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Disagree. How come I can beat players with the same build every time?
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
You may not need 'PvP skill', but you do need game skill.
I'm mostly PvE'er, but the times I have ventured to PvP zones I've fared fairly well, with totally PvE builds, as I know how the game works, which IMO is enough.
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The real skill is in taking underused/underpowered/non-FotM powersets, making them PvP-viable (and then some), and in being fully aware of your teammates in any situation, with or without TS, even in PuGs if necessary.
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No, that takes better understanding of the game by your logics.
A Paragon Defender
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No, that takes better understanding of the game by your logics.
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Not exactly - you might have a perfect understanding of how the game works, but that doesn't necessarily translate to knowing how other players will use their builds against you. Knowing how the game works AND knowing how other builds work in a PvP setting, and then applying that into making numerous builds that all work to a high level (or that just fulfil the intended purpose) is what is required - as well as an ability to translate that into results in PvP. You can have all the natural reflexes and reactions in the world, but with a poor game-knowledge, that won't translate well to PvP; the opposite is also true. I'd argue that both are needed to be truly skilled at PvP, but that's my take on it.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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No, that takes better understanding of the game by your logics.
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Not exactly - you might have a perfect understanding of how the game works, but that doesn't necessarily translate to knowing how other players will use their builds against you. Knowing how the game works AND knowing how other builds work in a PvP setting, and then applying that into making numerous builds that all work to a high level (or that just fulfil the intended purpose) is what is required - as well as an ability to translate that into results in PvP. You can have all the natural reflexes and reactions in the world, but with a poor game-knowledge, that won't translate well to PvP; the opposite is also true. I'd argue that both are needed to be truly skilled at PvP, but that's my take on it.
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But then how can you agree with Hobo that the game doesnt require skill? Arent what you just mentioned skill?
Another thing about skill, how come nightbringer can destroy my ice / nrg blaster, but I can destroy all the other scrappers I have meet? Do they lag game knowlegde or lag of natural reflexes?, In my opinion its both and something else that is called imagination. Thinking about different ways to attack me, running from BU and AIM is that reflexes or game knowlegde? Or is that simply being smart? NB is one of the few scrapper I have fought that actually runs when he hears those two comming up. And dont tell me that your casual player with a lvl 50 dont know what AIM and BU does. I will call it PvE syndrome and alot of players cant make the mental switch to PvP.
IMO 3 things are essential for PvPing well.
Game knowlegde, a field where Im really strong.
Reflexes, or movement. A field where Im your casual player. I had to give up on playing some platform games cause my natural reflexes arent good enough. And I really suck at games like counter strike. I would be lost without the follow button.
Imagination, thinking in counters, you may know all the facts about power and PvP, but there is still being able to use that knowlegde in the heat of the battle. You could call it tactical understanding. A field where Im at my best.
Perhaps its cause lag the reflex part you can still be good at PvP that turns Hobojack to saying that there is no skill in the game, I dont know.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
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But then how can you agree with Hobo that the game doesnt require skill? Arent what you just mentioned skill?
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Look over what I said carefully - I said that there's no skill involved in doing as HJ suggested, in getting a cookie-cutter FotM build then using TS to better organise zerging tactics - not that there's no skill involved in PvP. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, but I'm with you on this one. (Decide for yourself whether that's good or bad. )
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NB is one of the few scrapper I have fought that actually runs when he hears those two comming up.
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*grins*
I consider myself in good company then. Interestingly enough, I was "told off" for doing precisely that shortly after I dropped an Ice/En in a 1v1 with my Claws/SR... one man's "skill" is another man's "omgz u run liek a gurl", I guess. 
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IMO 3 things are essential for PvPing well.
Game knowlegde
Reflexes, or movement
Imagination
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Perfectly put. I'd add one more though - a good sense of sportsmanship.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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how come nightbringer can destroy my ice / nrg blaster, but I can destroy all the other scrappers I have meet?
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Post NB's build and post the builds of the other Scrappers please.
World of Jackcraft.
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Um...I can't ride a bike....
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Have you tried? It takes a day, tops.
World of Jackcraft.
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Perfectly put. I'd add one more though - a good sense of sportsmanship.
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Definately agreed, there.
i think hobo summed it up brilliantly, PvP skill is the same as bike skill, any1 can with practise ride a bike, any1 can PvP...
But tell me why i can't compete at world BMX championships or why i can't perform a backflip on a half pipe while on a BMX? Or why i can't go out and win the tour de france?
in simple...there are hugely different levels of skill and this is a perfect illustration for PvP, any1 can do it but to be up there with the best it takes an extremely higher level of skill
theres my input
Hobo's actually arguing that it takes only a little bit of skill, some practice, and everyone's then the same. You're arguing the opposite.
no he argued it requires the same skill as riding a bike i agreed (being sarcastic cos i completely disagree with Hobo) saying there are basically as many levels to riding a bike as there are in PvP
The fact that you can just press follow to follow your opponent and that you dont have to be facing them to attack pretty much takes alot of skill out of the game.
Change that and player speed and reactions would count for so much more. Otherwise its pretty much common sense what target to go for and how best your powers will help a team, just because not everyone spends the time to learn it doesnt mean its not easy.
Most people who would argue otherwise probably see themselves on some unreachable PvP plinth but are the 1st to call for 'nerfs' when outsmarted .
Skill: Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
In this sense of the word, there is a lot of skill to PvP in this game. It takes a lot of practice and knowledge of the game to know exactly how specific powersets will counter each other, in both team matches and duels.
Ofcourse, this is a team game, so anyone can go pick up an ice/energy blaster with whirlwind and own most anything that comes their way 1vs1. But you will find team matches are a lot more 'skill' based. Some people just don't know how to stay alive in team. They lack either the intelligence or ability to be able to see what move to make and where.
As with anything though, practice makes perfect. Just takes some people a lot longer than others.
Jupiter is slow looking into his notebook, but he always looks.
The [b]Retribution[/b] is coming.
[url="http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j19/Valens_ii/"]Some of my toons[/url]
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Um...I can't ride a bike....
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Have you tried? It takes a day, tops.
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For you, it might. That doesn't mean everyone has the same experience. People have different levels of ability when it comes to physical ability, reflexes, balance, whether you're talking about their natural ability or what they're trained themselves to.
I, for one, couldn't ride a bike until I was around 11 - and not through lack of trying. I then didn't ride for over a year, and did the 'impossible': forgot how to ride a bike. I have a good laugh every time anyone uses the ability to ride a bike as an analogy for anything, as a result.
While leg muscles and balance don't matter in PvP, reflexes do, as has been mentioned. You might have good reflexes, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. For those of us who don't naturally have very quick reflexes, or aren't used to playing games or sports that require them (meaning we've had little chance to practice and train them), things can be a little more challenging. I honestly think my reflexes have become better since I started playing, and especially since I started PvPing, though.
Anyone can PvP, they just need the will to get in the Arena, or one of the zones. To be good at it and contribute to the team without giving away easy kills/points takes skill/knowledge/reactions.
Binds can help you speed up your reaction time, knowing what power to use and when comes through doing many battles against several different builds/ATs and Teams.
Learning the maps used in PvP can also help you become better, as each one has advantages and disadvantages.
The team might adjust their tactics depending on the map.
Feel free to ignore this post, its a bit boring
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To be honest, in more finicky reflex-based games like Counterstrike Source, I never truly considered any of what I did a kind of skill. It was merely doing what I was supposed to. Perhaps the part some of us are orbiting around here, comes mostly from the usage of the word "skill".
To be skilled at something, would mean you are effective/efficient and experienced at the task in question. Whereas merely "having a skill" can mean you are able to participate, or engage in the act... otherwise meaning you have learned how to do it, but the way you say it denotes nothing towards how good you are at it. Try not to quote me on the dictionary here, but those are ways that it can be said, and the things they imply. So, where do we draw the line from simply participating well in PVP, and being -skilled- at PVP? Is being skilled just an alternate way of saying "I can compete well enough"? Or is it a measure of how far above the average player you are, in terms of performance?
Given that when you enter a PVP zone with at least a handful of opponents and allies to fight with, if you dont have some relatively good degree of PVP skill, you're just fodder. Normally, the gray-area for new learners is small. I think, ultimately, what is being said, is that what differenciates between a merely competant PVP player and a 'skilled' PVP player, isnt that great at all. Or maybe the game mechanics just prevent us from feeling any real sense of mastery over PVP, given that so much feels automated and down to simple manuevering/timing?
When its all said and done, I have previously thought "wouldnt it be nice if there was the potential for more skill/cunning to be used in PVP", but when I heard the stories about how SWG went down the pan, for trying to make it more involving and action-based, I soon changed my mind.
And now, I cant remember if I was supposed to actually make a point, or just state the obvious. All shall be cured now, as I eat my pizza..
It doesn't exist, stop fooling yourselves.
PvP is so damn easy in this game it isn't even funny. Get a good build, get one or two tips and start having Arena matches/stepping into PvP zones. I give it about a week before you know practically everything you need to know.
Tactics? Teamwork? Co-ordination?
Get Teamspeak and your troubles are solved. Or take a typing class so you can type quickly in Teamchat, maybe make a few binds.
Skill?
What is that exactly? It's not hard to find out what powers work best and when. Is that it?
World of Jackcraft.