Taking a patron doesn't necessarily mean you have to use their powers, Im pretty sure Bridger said this somewhere although can't find it now so I could be wrong but that would be like forcing power choices onto you.
I imagine you could take a patron have the content and the badge and the respec then ignore the available patron pool and fill with standard pool or primary/secondary power choices. Do heroes have to have epic pool powers?
[ QUOTE ]
Do heroes have to have epic pool powers?
[/ QUOTE ]
I asked a mate this a while back, and was told no, there is a high chance you WON'T want to heavily invest in the epic/patron/ancilliary power pools, and instead will fill the missing stuff you wanted pre-40 but couldn't get.
In particular, I was asking if I would be able to take my lvl38 2ndary power for my brute after lvl40.
It does seem imbalanced, I mean these are my gut reactions for my 2 main chars:
With my Bot/Dark MM, I can't really see much except the defense I'd bother with, I don't use ANY attacks at all, instead concentrating on debuffing/buffing, so I'd be more likely to fill in some gaps there (and maybe take the hold). I certainly don't see any major incentive to take 3 powers from one of these pools, unlike every other AT which at least get's a pet.
My fire/fire brute's a different story, a ranged attack could be handy (especially with knockdown for the mace), an AoE hold would be extremely useful for AoEing and the pet's just icing. Some form of status protection would have been nice, but can't have everything.
Zombie_Man over Stateside has posted a reasonably good summary on the PPP's for Masterminds.
I think my real beef is the fact that our tier four PPP Power is a single-target hold. Which, compared against a pet for every other AT seems horribly underpowered.
If the final power was changed to a pet or a henchman/ally buff (shared travel powers for henches? New power upgrade? +Dam/+Acc buff) then I don't think I'd feel so.... meh about the sets.
yeah, that's exactly my view, the defense is nice, but otherwise....
Now, as you say, if there was something nice as power #4, then I could easily take one of the others as the "price" for that, but as is power #4 is actually worse than a hold I had to leave out of my build pre-40. So obviously, I'm gonna get the one from my 2ndary over one I have to spend 3 points to get.
Suggestion : PPP Tier 4 for Masterminds gives Kamikazi.
Robots run up and explode on their target, Thugs/Mercenaries have a satchel of C4, Ninjas ignite themselves and dive on the nearest enemies, Zombies become Embalmed Abominations.
Now that would be fun 
[ QUOTE ]
Suggestion : PPP Tier 4 for Masterminds gives Kamikazi.
Robots run up and explode on their target, Thugs/Mercenaries have a satchel of C4, Ninjas ignite themselves and dive on the nearest enemies, Zombies become Embalmed Abominations.
Now that would be fun
[/ QUOTE ]
<cough> Traps Secondary, 9th Power, Detonator </cough>
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
The best suggestions I've seen over here and Stateside for the tier four (T4) MM PPP power are...
- Upgrade for henchmen that grant the Patron-themed attack (e.g. for Black Scorpion, the upgrade gives the henchmen Web Coccoon). For balance have it on a double/triple length timer compared to the final L32 upgrade so you can't justifiably have all your henchmen upgraded with it
- A themed ally buff, usable on other players or henchmen
- A pet, as per all other AT's PPP pools
- A new themed, commandable henchman
I think that any one of these changes to just the last power would make it a worthwhile choice to go for a Patron.
Doesn't anyone have a hero round here? Heroes certainly don't have to take any powers from thier epics (I only have one of the powers on my level 50 ATM). I'm sure villains will be the same, and you will still be able to choose a patron for the missions and respec.
The total number of powers is 23 (I think), and you have 18 primaries and secondaries, 16 pool powers, and 4 epic/patron, for a total of 38 powers to choose from.
I really should do something about this signature.
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't anyone have a hero round here? Heroes certainly don't have to take any powers from thier epics (I only have one of the powers on my level 50 ATM). I'm sure villains will be the same, and you will still be able to choose a patron for the missions and respec.
[/ QUOTE ]
However...
- EPP's are respec'able. PPP's are not
- PPP's require missions to be granted them. EPP's do not
Cryptic's design philosophy would indicate, along their risk vs. reward scheme that PPP's would be proportionately more powerful.
I don't question the general design and theme of PPP's for any other AT apart from Masterminds - my Brute, Stalker and Corruptor are quite happy with what is on offer. My Mastermind is not.
Sure, I can just opt to not take the powers but Issue Seven is still in development. I assume there is still time to make changes, and so I'm suggesting them - if they come out as currently advertised then I will indeed only be taking one or two of the powers, and remain dissatisfied with the T4.
Obviously better feedback can be given once it's on the Test Server but if you look across both EU and US Forums the PPP's have all been fairly well recieved except for Masterminds which have been almost universally lambasted. This should tell the developers something - the playerbase is not happy with their current plans.
[ QUOTE ]
Cryptic's design philosophy would indicate, along their risk vs. reward scheme that PPP's would be proportionately more powerful.
[/ QUOTE ]
They CAN'T be though without completly unbalancing the hero/villain equilibrium.
I really should do something about this signature.
Read my post on in the announcments and you will see that im not happy in anyway shape or form with the patron powers for MM's so i will skip them and get more pool powers as i dont need any holds and immobs, my dark dervent and lich do plenty for me!! 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cryptic's design philosophy would indicate, along their risk vs. reward scheme that PPP's would be proportionately more powerful.
[/ QUOTE ]
They CAN'T be though without completly unbalancing the hero/villain equilibrium.
[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't the equilibrium already out of balance though? If a hero chooses an EPP and a few months down the road changes are introduced which make that pool less effective the hero has the option to respec out of that pool. Villains don't have that option. Sure they can take different powers from the PPP or none at all but they are still locked into a choice that may have unknown consequences for their character in the future.
I know Posi said there is "currently" no way to allow villains to respec their PPP which we could take to mean that at some stage they may allow it, but honestly it's a thin hope. Plus, given the Devs lack of foresight as to how players will actually use their powers (they didn't foresee that anyone would 6 slot attacks for damage, 6 slot hasten for recharge, herd half a map and debuff then AoE them to death, etc), resulting in all the changes we've seen since Issue 3 (global defense, ED, AoE limits, etc) I think it's within the realms of possibility that PPP's will be "tweaked" or "balanced" at some stage in the future.
Hence the Patron Power pools are all much the same. It doesn't matter which you pick if there is no significant difference.
I really should do something about this signature.
Actually looking at the powers again, you're absolutely right. As long as they make the same changes to all PPP's at the same time then I don't suppose it will make any difference at all, unless they make any changes to the secondary effects. It's just the same power with different graphics. Personally, I'd prefer a little more variety between sets and the option to respec but that doesn't look very likely 
.
[ QUOTE ]
Suggestion : PPP Tier 4 for Masterminds gives Kamikazi.
Robots run up and explode on their target, Thugs/Mercenaries have a satchel of C4, Ninjas ignite themselves and dive on the nearest enemies, Zombies become Embalmed Abominations.
Now that would be fun
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'd love that, but some people say that detonator is a load of donkey crud. Dunno what to believe with that power anymore 
They suck.
Why on earth would I want a silly hold/immob power? My mercs are throwing them out all the time.
More importantly...Why would my char ally themselves with one of the four idiots of doom,instead of either remaining indy or becoming a loyal lacky of Recluse?
Lets be honest here, the four idiots of doom are hardly competant villain role models.
Besides, I Wanted to summon spider robots! Or maybe a new equip option that grants my mercs the funky blasty stick things that the the Arachnos minions have.
-
And what are these PvP problems people talk about? To me they seem the same as the problems all chars have the solution being dont die :P
DG>
why on earth i need powers as MM? i got my happy pets doing most of the work, maybe 1 hold power to stack my /poison hold for the bosses.
Besides that, i cant find a single one that 'suits' my /poison style.. Nope, very dissapointing..
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
I think I'll be getting Scorpions big stick, the shield will stack with my force fields nicely
IN MEMORIUM OF GAYBABY
CRUELY TAKEN FROM THIS WORLD WHILE SO YOUNG
Im a Dark/Bots MM, I think Ghost Widow would suit me...More debuffs......we'll see what happens! 
Are some of Ghost Widow's powers not already in the MM dark set though?
She was the one I wanted to take so as to stick with Gravecall's theme but not really particularly interested in any of them now;
Already have a hold power,
Shouldn't be getting close enough to need a defense boost (outside PVP anyway)
Already have ranged personal attacks and pretty sure some of the powers I've yet to take offer area effects.
Powers I would've liked to have seen:
Sniper attack (help in PVP)
Self Res (like for brutes as we're too squishy when backed into a corner and a little extra defence ain't going to cut it if we can't resummon quickly/if there are more enemies than pet or if they're just ignoring our pets regardless)
Another pet (shouldn't need explaining)
Another buff for our pets (again shouldn't need explaining)
The cone blasts are from the Defender / corrupter Dark Blast set.
The shield is probably like a Dark Armour power and the hold looks new
[/color]<blockquote><font class="small">Antwort zu::[/color]<hr />
Powers I would've liked to have seen:
Sniper attack (help in PVP)
Self Res (like for brutes as we're too squishy when backed into a corner and a little extra defence ain't going to cut it if we can't resummon quickly/if there are more enemies than pet or if they're just ignoring our pets regardless)
Another pet (shouldn't need explaining)
Another buff for our pets (again shouldn't need explaining)
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess a snipe would have been nice, but the others... I don´t know if that would have worked.
Do you really think, a self rez would be useful for a MM? Especially this soul-draining kind Ghost Widow would have offered? "So, I am back, dear enemy, with your full attention but without my pets. Get ready to pummel me again!" I don´t think so.
More pets? Do you think, navigating in those caves is still too easy with 2 MMs on the team? I don´t see my array of henchmen becoming much stronger from a single blood widow or arachnobot blaster. It does make a significant difference for my dominator, though.
And if there was something I was afraid of, then it was the thought of just another pet buff coming with the PPPs. Why not make the whole pet buffing procedure even more time and endurance consuming as it already is at level 40? Well, let´s add 50% to both endurance and time spent for some effect that will allow those MMs to read a book or watch tv while their pets sweep the map. Thanks, but no thanks.
I am quite happy as it is. So I can use my non-pet-powers to turn the enemies into something completely helpless before my pets turn them into something completely dead.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think, a self rez would be useful for a MM? Especially this soul-draining kind Ghost Widow would have offered? "So, I am back, dear enemy, with your full attention but without my pets. Get ready to pummel me again!" I don´t think so.
[/ QUOTE ]Something like: [ QUOTE ]
You draw power from the netherworld, allowing you to rise again. You also summon several spirits to distract the enemies and hold them at bay while you make your escape.
[/ QUOTE ] Basically summoning some NPC's with strong large taunt auras, lasting long enough for you to disappear from the area.
Hmmm, okay, this could work, although I am still not convinced... I guess there would be all kinds of balancing issues. On the one hand you wouldn´t want it to be a "standard" rez, which would result in the MM faceplanting again, and on the other hand you wouldn´t want it so uber that the MM could self rez off Infernal and set up his private army again before said Infernal (or one of his Behemoths) realizes what is going on.
But I think the part with the distraction is really nice. And I could see this work for any patron in one way ore an other without a stretch. In effect this would be some kind of taunt / placate / smoke bomb in case you lost all your pets to some nasty AV damage output. As a matter of fact I would prefer being able to use this power as a panic button without having to die first.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
Also they mention a respec coupled to the patron power thing, will this replace the level 44+ respec or be as well as?
And yeah I don't want to miss out content but none of the patron poweres that I can see offer any benefit to my character, if I could get a patron and not take the powers I might go for it but my reading of the system is that with a patron you get the powers.