like ZOMG thats near enough mega greifing, are the devs now on drugs or sommert >.> >.< <.< that n drone tp'ing just 'get someone outta the way' so annoying, *slaps devs*
and least u got a reply from them, i send stoof and get sod all >.>
This is why I never go to Warburg. HvV combat is fair enough, but my idea of fun differs somewhat from being ganked the second I step out of the safe zone.
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Not much chance of that, Warburg is usually empty when I have been there.
The problem I see with the PvP zones is not the rules (apart from FFA in Warburg), it that mobs give you debt at all. Debt should be abolished from all PvP zones (and mobs should give no xp).
I really should do something about this signature.
I'd have to agree with DEVs here. Whole point of these zones is that they are much more dangerous then other others.
The idea of a villain leading a hero into a trap which consists of a group which is hostile to both individuals has been used many times, sometimes even forcing the two to team up when things go wrong for the villain 
I've never been enthusiastic about the PvP thing but if you are implementing the idea then I think you have to go for the whole no holds bar approach. It may not seem nice or fair but if it's not what you want, arrange a duel in the Arena, these open areas filled with mobs are not designed for duels, they are warzones and as the saying goes - War is Hell
I agree that using the environment is a valid tactic, it's the debt that is the problem.
I really should do something about this signature.
It is like that in most pvp-related online games, these are the risks of PvP. Since you go there, you accept the risk, same as the 'griefer' uses this tactic to take down opponents. Imho it gives a minor balance to the huge differences of AT-strenght.
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Get in the game, put up with the game... I think you need to be prepared for dept if you into PvP. Just my five cents.
I'm completely agree with the devs...
If you go to a PvP zone, you KNOW that it is a PvP zone and you can get killed "fairly" or "unfairly" (im no sure about those words) cause these zones have no rules, so I'd tell the people moaning cause they got tped into a mob and got debt; use that anger trying to kill the one who tped ya, ot try to get him debt, as there are no rules no one else can help
I agree, debt is the problem here. I love using my force bubble, but i find i need to use it wisely because it's huge range can draw you a lot of aggro from npcs. So a tactic a melee only AT can use against it...is to go in an area witch is full of npcs...that way either i have to be extremely careful on how i use it or die...or not use it at all....and that would mean i lost my lvl 38 power 
Though after reading what i just said...i have to agree to some extent that debt isn't that bad...if i know i don't get any debt...i won't hold back when facing npcs. So it's quite a dillema. Maybe it would be better if they'd reduce the debt aquired in pvp zones...make it half ( like in missions ), that way would be more fair i think ( since /rad chars can get into trouble unwillingly - put a debuff on a hero/villain and he moves near a npc...the npc will aggro the /rad AT...)
Lets understand this about PvP, there is one big rule, and that rule is PvP does not give a penalty in terms of death. This is NOT a PvP only oriented game. If i go to a PvP zone i expect a lot of things, one i do not expect is to get debt from PvP'ing. That is a major setback for a game that is not fully PvP oriented. So the opinion that if you go into a PvP zone and expect to be killed by npc's trained by a player for me is widely flawed. If we go by that reasoning, then when you are in a hazard if i happen to pass by with a herded group of npc's by you and kill you, well its a hazard zone.. bad luck. If i pass with another group of enemies and kill train them on you again, well you are on a hazard zone, bad luck for you... But this type of behaviour is considered griefing on non-pvp hazard zones. The reasoning showed by the dev's is very thin and very flawed on my point of view. The bottom line is PvP shoudnt get you debt by whatever means. This isnt a fully oriented PvP game.
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Lets understand this about PvP, there is one big rule, and that rule is PvP does not give a penalty in terms of death. This is NOT a PvP only oriented game. If i go to a PvP zone i expect a lot of things, one i do not expect is to get debt from PvP'ing. That is a major setback for a game that is not fully PvP oriented. So the opinion that if you go into a PvP zone and expect to be killed by npc's trained by a player for me is widely flawed. If we go by that reasoning, then when you are in a hazard if i happen to pass by with a herded group of npc's by you and kill you, well its a hazard zone.. bad luck. If i pass with another group of enemies and kill train them on you again, well you are on a hazard zone, bad luck for you... But this type of behaviour is considered griefing on non-pvp hazard zones. The reasoning showed by the dev's is very thin and very flawed on my point of view. The bottom line is PvP shoudnt get you debt by whatever means. This isnt a fully oriented PvP game.
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If you want safe debt free PvP, the Arenas work quite well for that. Let's not go forcing your 'rules of PvP' on people when there are alternative debt-free ways to PvP too.
You're right, this isn't a fully PvP oriented game. The so called PvP zones are in fact PvE zones where PvP can happen. So why should that be different from regular PvE zones?
Shrug.
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Lets understand this about PvP, there is one big rule, and that rule is PvP does not give a penalty in terms of death. This is NOT a PvP only oriented game. If i go to a PvP zone i expect a lot of things, one i do not expect is to get debt from PvP'ing. That is a major setback for a game that is not fully PvP oriented. So the opinion that if you go into a PvP zone and expect to be killed by npc's trained by a player for me is widely flawed. If we go by that reasoning, then when you are in a hazard if i happen to pass by with a herded group of npc's by you and kill you, well its a hazard zone.. bad luck. If i pass with another group of enemies and kill train them on you again, well you are on a hazard zone, bad luck for you... But this type of behaviour is considered griefing on non-pvp hazard zones. The reasoning showed by the dev's is very thin and very flawed on my point of view. The bottom line is PvP shoudnt get you debt by whatever means. This isnt a fully oriented PvP game.
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If you want safe debt free PvP, the Arenas work quite well for that. Let's not go forcing your 'rules of PvP' on people when there are alternative debt-free ways to PvP too.
You're right, this isn't a fully PvP oriented game. The so called PvP zones are in fact PvE zones where PvP can happen. So why should that be different from regular PvE zones?
Shrug.
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Im not forcing rules, im simply stating the rules of PvP as said by the devs, getting killed by another player in PvP does not give you debt. Thats the rule of PvP that the devs always said upfront on a lot of ocasions. So if a player makes a npc kill you, then isnt the player that killed you therefore the rule doesnt apply? Then if you accept this reasoning you must abide by the rule that ED wasnt a power change... Also if the PvP zones are PvE zones with PvP allowed, then the "my rule" is more then true. It is against the EULA training mobs into another player as this is griefing and should, with no exception, be petioned... If i go to Warburg or Sirens or Bloody i know there is a debt possibility and i accept it, what i dont agree is another player, of his own free will giving me debt. I will always see it as a EULA violation. Other players have given me debt in Warburg but due to mistakes, these happen. Hell ive made those and given debt to a player, but it was my mistake and i apologized.
Don't agree here. PvP zones are "open fire" zones. If you go in you could easily die. The EULA thing was drawn up for PvE zones really and don't translate well.
Removing the debt and xp entirely would be one solution but I wonder how many people you would lose from PvP zones if they didn't yield XP? Quite a few I'd wager as people would be completely forced to PvE to level up.
Hey everyone! Let's ask Thunderclap if he'd like to control where stalkers land.
He says [censored]. 
I [censored] myself whenever someone I'm fighting ends up in a tangle with a pve mob, and I try my best to avoid that, since no one likes debt. But meh, always going to happen.
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So if a player makes a npc kill you, then isnt the player that killed you therefore the rule doesnt apply? <snip>It is against the EULA training mobs into another player as this is griefing and should, with no exception, be petioned...
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The difference here is context... If I'm a hero, and I drag some Monsters from the Monster Isles to the center of Portal Corp, yes, greifing and petitionable.
If I'm a defender, and considerably squishy and not PvP-friendly, I can definitely see the use of TPing that brute into this little mob of Longbow, and hoping I get the killshot. It's not easy to build one's PvP reputation when you're squishy and have few underpowered attacks. If the player is killed by the NPCs, sure it's bad luck for both the attacker and the player, but it wouldn't be seen as griefing, just using what you have available...
TPing into Drones, that was griefing, since it was not helping you get a kill (unless you were removing a MM or stalker etc from their squishy for a minute, say - thats a good tactic IMO), but that doesn't give debt anymore, so isn't really a problem, right?
Shrug.
I'll bet this gets moved to the PvP boards shortly...
Suggestion: add a short Debt Suppression window to Knockback and TP Foe powers?
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Lets understand this about PvP, there is one big rule, and that rule is PvP does not give a penalty in terms of death. This is NOT a PvP only oriented game. If i go to a PvP zone i expect a lot of things, one i do not expect is to get debt from PvP'ing. That is a major setback for a game that is not fully PvP oriented. So the opinion that if you go into a PvP zone and expect to be killed by npc's trained by a player for me is widely flawed. If we go by that reasoning, then when you are in a hazard if i happen to pass by with a herded group of npc's by you and kill you, well its a hazard zone.. bad luck. If i pass with another group of enemies and kill train them on you again, well you are on a hazard zone, bad luck for you... But this type of behaviour is considered griefing on non-pvp hazard zones. The reasoning showed by the dev's is very thin and very flawed on my point of view. The bottom line is PvP shoudnt get you debt by whatever means. This isnt a fully oriented PvP game.
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Quite agree that its not a full PvP game. However there are some zones where there PvP is allowed and these also contain NPCs who are hostile. The zone is a hostile zone which I take to means that anything and anyone will attack you, using NPCs against someone is just making full use of the features of the zone, so I don't think can be counted as grief.
If player uses mobs against another player in a non-PvP zone, then it is griefing. In these zones players are deamed to act in a non-hostile manner to each other.
The issue of debt is tricky and can understand that people don't like debt. Two options:
i) have no mobs in PvP zones - but this is already the case with Arenas
ii) have no debt from mobs but also no XP as there's no risk. Not sure if this would work as it would discourage some players from entering zone as the only rewards are PvP.
I'm not a PvP but have undertaken missions and roaming mobs in such zones - I know there's a risk of ambush by other players or mobs. I take the risk for the XP or the Badge.
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Don't agree here. PvP zones are "open fire" zones. If you go in you could easily die. The EULA thing was drawn up for PvE zones really and don't translate well.
Removing the debt and xp entirely would be one solution but I wonder how many people you would lose from PvP zones if they didn't yield XP? Quite a few I'd wager as people would be completely forced to PvE to level up.
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Hazards zones are "open fire" zones and could get you easily killed, as we all know (Hollows anyone?), and as i said, it is griefing on these zones for another player to give you debt. The EULA applys to all game, PvP or PvE. As for removing the xp from those zones, well if you got do a mission in a PvP zone is instanced, and you get xp. Hunting outside for xp, well you can do that in normal regular zones, and they are somewhat less dangerous if you follow the colour code of the zones. The problem i see are the badges associated to killing npc's in PvP zones.
pfft the eula is so vague and open to individual interpretation that something that is bad one day may not be the next. Lets be clear, the EULA is nothing set in stone and deliberately so which is a little weak imo.
XP and debt in these zones is a VERY bad idea, it means there is no easy introduction to PVP zones for new players and they have little incentive to learn the enjoyment of pvp.
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I like this strategy, havent used it cos it's percieved as a bad thing. Always used the mobs to take down cocky big players on MUDs, there wasnt any extra penalties there though.
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Lets understand this about PvP, there is one big rule, and that rule is PvP does not give a penalty in terms of death. This is NOT a PvP only oriented game. If i go to a PvP zone i expect a lot of things, one i do not expect is to get debt from PvP'ing. That is a major setback for a game that is not fully PvP oriented. So the opinion that if you go into a PvP zone and expect to be killed by npc's trained by a player for me is widely flawed. If we go by that reasoning, then when you are in a hazard if i happen to pass by with a herded group of npc's by you and kill you, well its a hazard zone.. bad luck. If i pass with another group of enemies and kill train them on you again, well you are on a hazard zone, bad luck for you... But this type of behaviour is considered griefing on non-pvp hazard zones. The reasoning showed by the dev's is very thin and very flawed on my point of view. The bottom line is PvP shoudnt get you debt by whatever means. This isnt a fully oriented PvP game.
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If you want safe debt free PvP, the Arenas work quite well for that. Let's not go forcing your 'rules of PvP' on people when there are alternative debt-free ways to PvP too.
You're right, this isn't a fully PvP oriented game. The so called PvP zones are in fact PvE zones where PvP can happen. So why should that be different from regular PvE zones?
Shrug.
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Debt does not belong to PVP zone. According to developer logic, somebody who, say, herds their own lvl 52 ambush in steel canyon around trying to kill low lvl players and causing debt is of course not griefing, now is it?!
There is nothing wrong in using mobs to kill players in PVP zones if only they wouldnt cause debt.
EDIT: Then again, having PvE enemies give fairly good xp,inf and prestige rewards in PVP zones gives a reason for players to hang around in PVP zones even if there are no player enemies there. The fact that same PVE enemies give debt justifies these rewards.
So its a two-edged sword.. The devs could have used a better choice of words to explain this, though...
Maybe the devs think the debt in pvp is a way of extending the game;
you die more in Siren's and Warburg because, let's face it, wandering Titans are on top of everyone's 'I want to see this in PvP zones' list, as well as more powers to actually use to get players into NPC characters.
Also of note; when you're in the mid thirties, you can no longer gain any influence in SG mode. Major drawback.
Solution? You kill some time in PvP, die, get debt, go exemp in SG mode since you can switch on and off between missions for influence or prestige as well as not actually storming to 50, and it helps gel sgs together better.
I'm willing to put some money on the idea that this was a pretty thought on a memo in staff room somewhere at some point.
Unfortunately, much as I enjoy the occasional PvP, there's too much negavity of the whole damned thing that's depressing as a whole and puts me off for while.
Half EXP from PvE Mobs (In PvP zones) and Half Debt In PvP zones.
K
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Half EXP from PvE Mobs (In PvP zones) and Half Debt In PvP zones.
K
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i actually agree with that, but in the instances exp reward etc should remain same, just outside in the zone, then its a GO!
Full post copied from CuppaJo
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Quote:
I just sent a PM to cuppa asking if purposefully giving a player debt is considered griefing. Will update when she gets back to me
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The Devs say - No.
Ultimately PVE mobs in a PVP zones are hazards of a PVP zone. Players do have control (and options) that will prevent them from being victims of the TP Foe tactic.
Regarding being held, immobilized, slept and then being teleported into a PVE mob: griefing? No.
If a player uses TP Foe and teleports another player into a mob, so that their health is reduced, and then finishes them off with a killing shot .griefing? No.
If a player intentionally uses a knockback power (or Repel or Dispersion Bubble) on another player from the top of the roof to the street below where there happens to be a PVE mob, and the players presence draws mob aggro and dies should the player who knocked back the target player off that roof be actioned for griefing? No.
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Some of the things said here just makes me want to PvP no more. I still think on purpose, training a mob on a player is griefing, and against the EULA. But with this no one can protect you from a stupid player (or group of) who on purpose trains mobs on you on a PvP zone.
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