Either way, my point was simply that there's no reason why Shield Charge has to be a two-step process that takes longer to execute than any other attack.
Well yeah, but using shift+lclick is the same as using any hotkey+lclick. In this situation, shift is basically a hotkey.
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Well yeah, but using shift+lclick is the same as using any hotkey+lclick. In this situation, shift is basically a hotkey.
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The only reason I use it is convenience and not for any noticeable speed. I hate teleport as a travel power, but it's practically mandatory on a stoner and my finger finds the shift key a lot more comfortably when traveling long distances than it does any of the number keys. I've found that there is a lot less missed clicking when going across an entire map when I use shift instead of where I had it before at 7.
** Not that it matters but I use hotkeys for everything also.
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Out of curiosity why wouldn't you use Shield Charge against an AV? Wouldn't it only serve to up a Tanker's DPS?
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Actually, after I wrote that and headed off to work, I realized that I don't have any data to back that up. Scrappers and tanks aren't the same thing at all, and Shield Charge doesn't get nailed with the AT modifier, which should make it a MUCH better attack for tanks than for scrappers (compared to other available attacks on each). So let me check the numbers...
... and it looks like I was totally wrong, at least on paper. Shield Charge on a tank does an extremely high base 78 DPS and has better DPE than most single-target tanker attacks. So it looks like you should use Shield Charge against an AV as often as it comes up.
However, in practice, you have to get that target on the ground before it activates. That adds a little time. I wonder where the break even point is with other attacks. Looks like maybe around half a second. If you can click, target and click in half a second, it will add DPS.
But then we need to get into how best to do single target damage with the Shield primary, and I think you'll get a lot better mileage out of surrounding yourself with minions to crank up your Against All Odds. You don't want to kill them, so you want to avoid all AoE damage if you can. And that's one problem with Dark Melee, in that it also relies on Soul Drain for its high DPS, which would probably kill minions before you can finish off the AV. That's just a guess, though.
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With the AE this is certainly doable (just spawn ambushes as mins die or AV reaches certain health).
However in the actual missions where the AVs appear you might run into logistical issues in keeping fodder around (as you pointed out).
P.S. - SD/SS would have survivability issues against an AV I would imagine.
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P.S. - SD/SS would have survivability issues against an AV I would imagine.
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Why? SS/SD Brutes handle AVs just fine. If your equivalent Tank has problems, that doesn't really point to the set as the source.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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P.S. - SD/SS would have survivability issues against an AV I would imagine.
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Why? SS/SD Brutes handle AVs just fine. If your equivalent Tank has problems, that doesn't really point to the set as the source.
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SD has the same issue all defense sets have (even before a debuff or +tohit AV) - susceptibility to streaks. You can mitigate with a self heal (aid self / siphon life) or you can roll the dice. Given the higher hp and resists tanks enjoy with shield mitigation, I imagine a shielder would be in good shape even w/o a self heal. Resistance does a good job of mitigating incoming damage so your natural regen can counter it, though.
With support my Shield doesn't have a problem against AVs. Without support, if he didn't have a heal he'd eventually go down over the course of a long fight as soon as the insps emptied.
Granted my SD/DM doesn't have very high regen ... so don't know what an extra 200% or so might do in the place of an on-demand heal.
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How can Statesman fight against LR with his SS and win?
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A variety of reasons.
- Being a character created by a dev, he can do whatever he wants. For reference, see Positron, an armored Defender with more HP than any Tanker, or Castle the Fire/Fire tankmage.
- He's an actual, top tier hero. Player heroes and villains are 3rd class. We rate below canon sidekicks. That's why few player made characters can beat signature characters toe to toe when they're not watered down to EB status.
- He's also got a variety of electrical and energy attacks at his disposal.
- His faceplace cancels out Enhancement Diversification. That's why players aren't allowed access to it as a costume piece.
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Positron said it best a while back - we all con Grey to Him. Reverse the situation in a mission (do an older arc) and the AV is very very easy.
Also, We have yet to see the "secrets" of the Incarnate ATs. Lore wise I'd say Players are more in the line of Hercules in which we can "threaten" the godlike powers out there but unless we are en masse we are really no threat. Most civilians are just specs of dust to them unless they find an alternative like the malta Group, etc. An Incarnate versus an Incarnate might cut through those resistances like butter by reducing effectiveness by like a factor of ten. 50% going to 5%..etc. Perhaps you can forward your Question to Manticore in the Lore thread, I'd love to see his answer!
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
I think it's much harder for me to get my Hitpoints up on SD. I can only get to about 2400 or 2500 hp. More than a scrapper, but not as high as other Tanker primaries like Stone or Ice. But then again, others, like Fire, don't get anything at all.
And, right now, my Tanker build is looking to have a regen rate between 300% and 350% this includes the Regen Tissue, Numina, Miracle, Per Shifter, and the Panacea. Now is this over kill on a SD/Dark? Would this be overkill on a SD/EM tank that is damaging himself?
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I think it's much harder for me to get my Hitpoints up on SD. I can only get to about 2400 or 2500 hp. More than a scrapper, but not as high as other Tanker primaries like Stone or Ice. But then again, others, like Fire, don't get anything at all.
And, right now, my Tanker build is looking to have a regen rate between 300% and 350% this includes the Regen Tissue, Numina, Miracle, Per Shifter, and the Panacea. Now is this over kill on a SD/Dark? Would this be overkill on a SD/EM tank that is damaging himself?
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SD is one of the few primaries that come with built in perma HPs (True Grit). Whereas Ice and Invuln can have high HPs for a limited time (barring insane amounts of recharge) via their heals (which also add HPs for a duration) SD gains more out of the box perma (about +370 or so for a fully slotted True Grit at L50). So your SD Tanker with nothing else added should be close to 2250 out of the box (at L50).
Add in IO set bonuses and the various accolades that increase HPs, you should be able to run around with a full time 2800 or so HPs.
300-350% regen on a SD/DM is overkill imo (I would look at +recovery and +recharge there personally). However on an SD/EM, 300-350% regen would be a good investment (especially if you didn't take Aid Self).
*EDIT* Fixed some numbers.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about accolades. So true about the Perma Hp. I hadn't thought about it that way.
Oh and dm is so self sustainable, what with the heal and the end recovery. I just want to be absolutely sure that I can stay up the whole fight.
Depending who and what, most any Shield Tanker should stand up to most occasions if built properly.
Any other Shield (non-DM) Tankers try soloing an AV and what were your experiences?
How do you figure up DPS? I want to try and do math on some builds for tanks and see what I can come up with.
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wait,wait,wait... Is that Werner on the tanker forum?
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Wait, who am I? Where am I? Who all are you people?
Yeah, I'm not sure what happened. I must have gotten drunk and blacked out.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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How do you figure up DPS? I want to try and do math on some builds for tanks and see what I can come up with.
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Examples of DPS calculations in this spreadsheet.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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wait,wait,wait... Is that Werner on the tanker forum?
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Wait, who am I? Where am I? Who all are you people?
Yeah, I'm not sure what happened. I must have gotten drunk and blacked out.
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He finally saw the light and realized Tankers have better DPS since Scrappers have 0 DPS when splatted 
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Isn't that exactly the same thing ?
I.e., if Shield Charge is the power number 7 on your hotkey bar, you'd press 7 and click the location. Here you press shift and click the locationn. I don't see much difference.
(I'm just asking because I've seen this bind used for teleport too, yet I don't understand what makes it different than using the hotkey bar.)
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With the hotkey method, you are pressing the hotkey to activate the power, then clicking on the location to set the target. With the lshift+button method, you are pressing the shift and mouse button simultaneously and its that act that triggers the power and the location selection at the same time.
Its a little different in that the lshift key by itself does nothing: its just a meta key. I can hold down the shift key and then at exactly the moment I want to cast the macro power click the mouse button. Really, the main difference is that they do not rely on specific powertray arrangement: I don't even *have* teleport on most of my character's trays, which saves a space (which used to be more important before having customizable tray layouts).
Every character I have that has teleport uses lshift+button mainly for consistency. Additionally, some characters use control or alt + button for other things (I have control+button mapped to phantom army on my Illusion controller).
I don't think there's any major advantage either way. Shift-click mainly has historical advantages. I suppose if you're not a touch typist, its also easier to quickly hit shift+button than to hit hotkey+button since the shift key is bigger and you can keep a finger homed over it.
(The only disadvantage I can think of to using hotkeys is that its theoretically possible to doubletap the hotkey and to a quick activate-deactivate on the power; that's basically impossible with shift+click. But I don't think that's the sort of key error that happens often)
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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How do you figure up DPS? I want to try and do math on some builds for tanks and see what I can come up with.
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Examples of DPS calculations in this spreadsheet.
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Well, I don't understand the spreadsheet, could you explain how to get a DPS total, b/c on some of the spreadsheet there isn't even a number for DPS for some of the attacks. I was just tyring to figure out what my DPS would be using SD/SS w/Double Rage and AAO +5.
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How do you figure up DPS? I want to try and do math on some builds for tanks and see what I can come up with.
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Examples of DPS calculations in this spreadsheet.
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Well, I don't understand the spreadsheet, could you explain how to get a DPS total, b/c on some of the spreadsheet there isn't even a number for DPS for some of the attacks. I was just tyring to figure out what my DPS would be using SD/SS w/Double Rage and AAO +5.
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From the most simplistic point of view, you want to add up the damage done by your attacks, then divide by the time it takes to get them out.
So the spreadsheet has a damage column. Under the Super Strength build, you can see the damage of the Super Strength attacks I was using. There is a calculation for each, and a the top of the spreadsheet, you can see an example of how the damage is calculated. For the Super Strength tanker, Rage takes the place of Build Up.
The spreadsheet also has a couple of time columns, Activation Time and Arcanatime. The activation time you can get from the real numbers in the game. Arcanatime is a formula that adds in the irreducible delay between attacks caused by the way the server ticks of time work. So the Arcanatime is the time that each attack will take when used in the attack chain.
For some builds, that might be enough. Super Strength is more complicated because of Rage. In the example, I know that Rage will stack for five cycles of my attack chain, then crash, and then I'll have one more chain before I get to click on Rage again. That is, of course, based entirely on recharge. You need to look at how fast Rage recharges, and therefore for how long it will overlap. Damage for single and double-stacked rage is of course different.
So then I add up the damage for the five chains with double Rage and the one chain for single Rage. I add up the Arcanatime for those chains, plus the Arcanatime for Rage itself, plus the time of the Rage crash. Divide the two, and you have DPS.
Now, the DPS here is a little overstated for a couple reasons. First, I don't actually have perma Hasten. Second, Hasten itself takes a little time to activate. I added in a little fudge factor for the second bit, but didn't do a thing for the first.
As far as Against All Odds, it appears to be 10% + 5.5% for every target, so five targets should give you a 37.5% damage buff. That isn't a DPS buff; it's just like any other enhancement. So put a +37.5% in each of the attack damage calculations where all of the other damage enhancements are.
Plugging that into the calculation I did for Invulnerability/Super Strength, I get 147 DPS. So if you could somehow have everything exactly the same, but ADD Against All Odds with five targets, that would be the DPS. That's not how it will work in practice, but it might be in the ballpark for what a Shield Defense/Super Strength tanker might be able to achieve.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Alright, so how do you calculate for the extra damage provided by Procs?
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me 
Please list them, thanks in advance.
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Well, you can look up all enemy resistances in the game here. If you're doing 130 DPS, and the AV has 20% resistance, then you'll do 130 DPS * (100% - 20%) = 104 DPS. But since an AV heals 94 hit points per second, you're really netting out to 10 DPS. Be prepared for a VERY long fight.
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Also, I am not sure I am understanding these numbers as correct. . .if I could get an explaination on this as well. I take the numbers to mean for example .50 for Dominatirx is 50% resistance, but, what about the people that have 1.00 and 1.20, 1.30, .80. Are those 100%, 120%, 130% and 80% for resistances?
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me Please list them, thanks in advance.
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Well, you can look up all enemy resistances in the game here. If you're doing 130 DPS, and the AV has 20% resistance, then you'll do 130 DPS * (100% - 20%) = 104 DPS. But since an AV heals 94 hit points per second, you're really netting out to 10 DPS. Be prepared for a VERY long fight.
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Also, I am not sure I am understanding these numbers as correct. . .if I could get an explaination on this as well. I take the numbers to mean for example .50 for Dominatirx is 50% resistance, but, what about the people that have 1.00 and 1.20, 1.30, .80. Are those 100%, 120%, 130% and 80% for resistances?
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That column represents damage taken. So 1.00 means the mob takes 100% damage (no resistance). A mob with 0.80 takes 80% damage (1.00 - 0.8 = 0.2; 20% res). A mob with 1.2 means they take 120% normal damage (1.0 - 1.2 = -0.2; 20% vulnerability).
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Alright, so how do you calculate for the extra damage provided by Procs?
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You plug them into the formula in the place where it says "proc chance * proc damage". The example given there shows a regular proc with a 20% chance to fire and 71.8 damage if it does.
More complicated procs like chance for build up or -resist are, well, more complicated. But there are examples of those in my in-progress Scrapper DPS Comparison.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Could you fix your code, for MA. . .currently it is showing the KAT/SS in Mids. I wanted to see the MA, thanks.
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I don't use the hotkeys, so I can't really answer that.
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Ahh, well I guess that *is* the answer. I'm so used to hotkeys in any game I didn't stop and consider not everyone does. My bad !