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If so, then you'd you'd be incorrect. The period of time DPS is calculated over could be a complete 5s chain, or a complete 10s chain, or a dynamic chain over the course of 20 minutes. All you need to do is add up total damage dealt and divide by time.
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Sort off. The shorter the time window, though, the more skewed the value will be to the high end, though. In order to get the most accurate value its best to use a very large time window. I use 60 seconds. At that point changes seem to just affect nearly tie-ups.
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That's why I said a"complete 5/10s chain", meaning they're infinitely repeatable, so duration doesn't matter. (Ex: Smite - SL - Smite - MG takes 6.732s.) The two wrinkles are:
a) It can't be in the middle of the chain (ex: Smite - SL - Smite - MG - Smite would give invalid results)
b) Dynamic chains, longer is definitely better. In this case, I didn't explicitly say that, though.
10s may be too short, specially when looking at tanks, due to recharges. How would KOB, a 25s recharge power, look like in a 10s average?
Then pop in a 20 s average where unenhanced KOB will still only be used once.
That's why I feel the distinction had to be made. Even if the chain was static you cant repeat it without forcing either pauses or using filler attacks.
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10s may be too short, specially when looking at tanks, due to recharges. How would KOB, a 25s recharge power, look like in a 10s average?
Then pop in a 20 s average where unenhanced KOB will still only be used once.
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This thread is specifically about DPS high enough to kill AVs, there's no way KO Blow won't be enhanced for recharge. If you're trying to cover DPS for all circumstances (such as with your calculator), it makes sense, but that's not what's being discussed.
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That's why I feel the distinction had to be made. Even if the chain was static you cant repeat it without forcing either pauses or using filler attacks.
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A static chain is just that, one that can be used back to back without pause. If you're building to solo an AV, then you'd generally take endurance costs into account as well either through IO bonuses or powers (EA, CP, etc).
You might be able to solo an AV without a set chain (and I did say the longer the sample the better in those cases), but it'd be a lot harder due to Tanker's having lower DPA making each ounce of DPS much more valuable.
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This thread is specifically about DPS high enough to kill AVs, there's no way KO Blow won't be enhanced for recharge. If you're trying to cover DPS for all circumstances (such as with your calculator), it makes sense, but that's not what's being discussed.
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I know, my point is that to get an average dps value you cant go with a 10s chain and and then average that value because once you go out to fight that AV, you will find the average only holds true if the full attack was repeatable back to back.
If KOB was slotted so that it was not ready within 10 seconds (for this example) then the average you got from a 10s sample was wrongly skewed upwards.
Do the same analysis with 25 seconds and you get a more accurate sample to average your DPS from.
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(and I did say the longer the sample the better in those cases)
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What I'm trying to note is that there are some samples that are too short to hold any true value. 10s is one such extremely short sample.
So, Starsman, what do you say for SS? (Or anyone with numbers?) Can SS be a viable contestant on "the DPS is Right for AV soloing?" Or are the only COH AT's that can Solo most AV's a DM or FM Tank?
I have not tested it myself as I don't find AV soloing a rewarding experience (their HP+Regen/Reward ratio sucks) but I have heard of even Ice Melee users soloing AVs with the right build.
Now, as to what set can potentially dish the most ST damage? With high levels of recharge (150% that can be a mix of slotting and global) my calculator ranks them:
2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
Note that this is raw damage, and some sets may achieve this via bonuses like DoT or mitigate their endurance in other ways, like Energy Transfer making the endurance efficiency better and end efficiency will be important for AV soloing.
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What I'm trying to note is that there are some samples that are too short to hold any true value. 10s is one such extremely short sample.
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I'm saying that if you have a complete chain, then 10s is a perfectly acceptable sample size.
Don't interpret that as it being applicable to everyone for all circumstances. For DPS tests (such as AV soloing) it works just fine. I can tell you that people who number crunch Scrapper DPS against AVs certainly don't crunch out 60s worth of numbers.
At the level of recharge some of those chains use (such as the DM one), even long recharge powers like Seismic Smash and KO Blow would recycle in under 10s (6.41s and 8.01s respectively).
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Do the same analysis with 25 seconds and you get a more accurate sample to average your DPS from.
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If you're just repeating a chain, then you'll get identical results as just doing the chain. Even something like Rage's downtime can be averaged (110s up / 120s duration = the chain operating at roughly 91.67% - that's 10s of stacking to eliminate the def debuff).
(The longer effects such as Rage would be more accurate if crunched out, but at the point it's about practicality. You can get close enough with just the chain and modifying it. Again, that's how I've seen other Scrappers doing it, and the results speak for themselves, in my opinion.)
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2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
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Is that before or after damage buffs are included? Reason I ask is that the highest on your list (Stone Melee) comes out to ~95.20 DPS. That's around 1-2 dps more than an AV's regen rate. If that's after damage buffs (slots, BU, etc)...
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I have heard of even Ice Melee users soloing AVs with the right build.
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I'd have to see that to believe it. Ice Melee only has a single attack that has a slotted DPA higher than an AV's regen rate (FT - ~122 DPA). I can't begin to fathom how someone would make up that big of a difference. Heavily saturated in procs, maybe?
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Is that before or after damage buffs are included? Reason I ask is that the highest on your list (Stone Melee) comes out to ~95.20 DPS.
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I dont consider those number direct DPS, more like relative scores, but they keep in mind averaging of buffs and 95% damage slotting.
I never intended these charts as a means of seeing who can kill what uber content, but as a relative measure to compare one set to another.
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I'd have to see that to believe it. Ice Melee only has a single attack that has a slotted DPA higher than an AV's regen rate (FT - ~122 DPA).
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Not seen it, only heard. May had been taking advantage of specific AV weaknesses, and ancillary powers may be involved.
I just realized I missed Ice melee on that list I posted... sows at 1.35 on my charts if anyone cares.
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I have not tested it myself as I don't find AV soloing a rewarding experience (their HP+Regen/Reward ratio sucks) but I have heard of even Ice Melee users soloing AVs with the right build.
Now, as to what set can potentially dish the most ST damage? With high levels of recharge (150% that can be a mix of slotting and global) my calculator ranks them:
2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
Note that this is raw damage, and some sets may achieve this via bonuses like DoT or mitigate their endurance in other ways, like Energy Transfer making the endurance efficiency better and end efficiency will be important for AV soloing.
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What are theses numbers based on: dmg/sec? dmg/attack? dmg/attack chain? dmg/60 sec? What happends when that raw damage hits resistances? Like when fighting Pratorean Statesman, or Lord Recluse?
When the 'raw damage' meets resistance, you multiply the 'raw damage' against the resistance. For a single damage type such as Smashing or Lethal against say, Lord Recluse, who has a native 50% Smash/Lethal Resistance, you cut the performance in half.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
So SS would be like .97 for S/L, but Fiery and Dark would stay the same, correct?
Except for the components of their damage that are Smashing/Lethal (Fire Sword, GFS, Smite, etc).
Granted, the ideal ST chain for Dark Melee is surprisingly "pure" in its Negative Energy damage so it's borderline negligible....except in cases of higher resistance to Negative...which LR has again, a lot of native resistance (in fact, LR is pretty much a bad option for soloing).
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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I have not tested it myself as I don't find AV soloing a rewarding experience (their HP+Regen/Reward ratio sucks) but I have heard of even Ice Melee users soloing AVs with the right build.
Now, as to what set can potentially dish the most ST damage? With high levels of recharge (150% that can be a mix of slotting and global) my calculator ranks them:
2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
Note that this is raw damage, and some sets may achieve this via bonuses like DoT or mitigate their endurance in other ways, like Energy Transfer making the endurance efficiency better and end efficiency will be important for AV soloing.
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What are theses numbers based on: dmg/sec? dmg/attack? dmg/attack chain? dmg/60 sec? What happends when that raw damage hits resistances? Like when fighting Pratorean Statesman, or Lord Recluse?
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Although the numbers may loosly represent optimized dynamic attack chains, (where higher dpa attacks are prioritized) they are just meant to compare who is capable of doing more damage with the best attacks available for the set. Some sets require just 3 powers for a full attack chain, while others may require 5 or even 6. It's very dependant of the set and may also be a huge factor as it determines investment. Although I keep track of how many powers are needed I didnt list this here because there are so many other things that then I'd feel forced to list making the simple "who can dish more st damage" a way too complex thing.
As for resistances, I leave that in the air. You will have to just assume if the foe is resistant to only one damage type you may as well lower all sets that purely depend on that damage by about that amount in the list.
Presumably DM is low because Soul Drain isn't being factored in?
Against a single-target Soul Drain seems to be about the same buff over time as Buildup (well, just slightly worse). Against 10 targets, Soul Drain seems like it's about 2.5x better than Build Up which doesn't scale (112% damage buff over 30s, every 120s versus 100% damage buff for 10s, every 90s -- 112*.25 = 28% buff over time for SD, vs 100*.111 = 11.1% buff over time for Build Up).
Factoring that in I'm guessing Dark Melee stacks up a lot better on groups and also gains a ground on single-targets when it's possible to grab adds.
Did I get the numbers right on Soul Drain? City of Data didn't seem right and in-game I see a 40% buff (first target) and 8% buff (each additional target up to 10, right?).
Of course there are other variables. Soul Drain takes time to cast. However so does Build Up (a little more than half as long, but then you also need to spam it 33% more often). I'm guessing other builds have ways to increase their damage that aren't being factored in as well?
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2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
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No offense to your work (as you've obviously put some time into this), but frankly, I'd have to see the complete methodology to believe this. These numbers don't tell me anything and don't match any detailed analysis I've ever seen or made myself.
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I have not tested it myself as I don't find AV soloing a rewarding experience (their HP+Regen/Reward ratio sucks) but I have heard of even Ice Melee users soloing AVs with the right build.
Now, as to what set can potentially dish the most ST damage? With high levels of recharge (150% that can be a mix of slotting and global) my calculator ranks them:
2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
Note that this is raw damage, and some sets may achieve this via bonuses like DoT or mitigate their endurance in other ways, like Energy Transfer making the endurance efficiency better and end efficiency will be important for AV soloing.
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I can tell you from experience that SS and EM don't hold a candle to DM for soloing an AV.
I would be very surprised if SS or EM could out perform BA or WM in AV soloing (the only thing I could think of making them equivelantly as clunky as SS or EM is the draw times when they occur).
The key is the attack chain ... SS and EM have poor attack chains because of selection of powers (SS only having 2 decent hitters) or animation times (2/3s of EM's attack chain combine in animation time to be more then DM's whole attack chain) or recharge (EM and SS both have attacks of 20 seconds or over in recharge in their chains).
For normal fighting these recharges don't seem like a lot given the recharge reductions and global recharge we can achieve however when fighting an AV, the attack chains have to be seamless (which EM and SS does not have, even with monstrous recharge reduction) to maintain the DPS needed to overcome the AVs regen and endurance efficient (enough so that your total recovery can come close to overcoming your endurance expenditure).
BTW looking at FM, it's attack chain seems a bit clunky and the damage (for single target purposes) while sufficient is not outstanding.
The last part to this is that every attack chain isn't seemless (even if on paper it is) no matter how well built the toon. Popping insps, using heal and recovery powers and so forth all detract from the attack chain.
One of the misleading points that I see brought up is that "soandso set only has XXX amount of powers over the DPA threshold needed to bring down an AV". While this is technically correct, powers that come in at just under that threshold still apply to the attack chain *if* the total of that attack chain is still over the regen threshold of the AV in question (and all other points still apply).
So looking at Starsman's list, EM and SS should be towards the bottom (not top), while DM should be near the top and Fm somewhere in the middle.
Only comment I have is just remember as Starman already mentioned, these numbers don't take into account several, very important things for AV soloing:
1. Resistance: We all know that most, if not all AVs have (in some cases high) S/L resistances that automatically removes Stone Melee, War Mace, Super Strength and Battle Axe out of the top 5 for AV hunting. This also pushes Dark, Energy, Ice and Fire Melee to top just on that merit alone.
2. Secondary effects: Secondary effects are a big reason why Dark Melee rises to the top. Having a heal as an attack is huge. All the other secondaries have to stop their damage output in order to heal. Dark Melee doesn't. Then there are the other secondary effects of Dark.
3. Primaries: Of course your primary also have a huge effect on your AV soloing ability. If you are Stone/DM for example, while yes, you have the right secondary, you don't have the right primary. This chart doesn't take power mixes into account.
So while I'm not a numbers person (is Energy Melee still that good in the ST damage realm? Feels super slow to me) this chart could mislead you if you don't take into account some of these points. This is just raw damage amounts, against things that don't have any resistances.
There are other things that can skew this chart as well. Others have already mentioned them, like attack chains, regen rates, etc. But to factor everything in would be a huge task. But I bet someone could do it.
Edit: Just read Kruunch's note and he said a lot of the same things I mentioned 
...
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2.14 Stone Melee
1.98 War Mace
1.97 Energy Melee
1.94 Super Strength
1.90 Battle Axe
1.87 Dark Melee
1.84 Fiery Melee
1.75 Dual Blades
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No offense to your work (as you've obviously put some time into this), but frankly, I'd have to see the complete methodology to believe this. These numbers don't tell me anything and don't match any detailed analysis I've ever seen or made myself.
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It's basically the same as Arcanaville's Peak DR (think thats how she called it) with an implementation twist that help me do quick automated changes and priority modifiers plus averaged build up (not sure if she used to do that.)
Trying to find her guide now but cant seem to find it.
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Factoring that in I'm guessing Dark Melee stacks up a lot better on groups and also gains a ground on single-targets when it's possible to grab adds.
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The list I posted was only for single target, if you want to see DM while surrounded you can look at my charts on my sig's link, they go into a bit more detail.
Darminiam, note that these numbers are the performance of the sets on the raw. Foes you face can variate and change things around but as you noted I noted it 
. there are AVs that are actually strong against dark, or energy so it all depends what AV you want to solo. Better than guessing is to multiply the values by the resistance and then resort the list by the modified values.
Example:
Foe w/20% resist
Score * .8 = ScoreAgainstFoe
If I gave an already modified score, how would you know what foe I measured against and how to adapt it after a different foe, after all?
Your charts are still way wrong.
I'll see if I can come up with some better figures.
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One of the misleading points that I see brought up is that "soandso set only has XXX amount of powers over the DPA threshold needed to bring down an AV". While this is technically correct, powers that come in at just under that threshold still apply to the attack chain *if* the total of that attack chain is still over the regen threshold of the AV in question (and all other points still apply).
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Okay, let's not beat around the bush, that was me. :P The thing is, the rest of the set isn't really even close to matching an AV's regen. I admit, that part I didn't say, but I had crunched it out. I probably should have said "Ice only has 1 power above AV regen, and nothing else even close," then that would've covered all bases, alas.
At any rate, here are the DPA of Ice Melee:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> DPA
FF 46
IS 72.29
Frost 56.03
FT 122.71
GIS 67.8
FA 54.89</pre><hr />
It has one attack above AV regen, then the next closest is 20 dps short. That's not even in the same ballpark. For kicks and giggles, I created an (essentially unobtainable) chain just to see how much DPS Ice Melee could deal.
FT - IS - GIS
~81.5 DPS
Requirements
FT: +291% rech
IS: +46.6% rech
GIS: +260.8% rech
If you had full rech enhancement (95%) in FT, that'd still require 196% global recharge to obtain. Even with insane requirements like that, it's still over 10 dps shy of simply matching AV regen, not to mention being above it by a significant degree to kill it before the end of the week. (Hmm, if you average out BU being up every 23s, then the chain manages to pull about 96 dps. Keep in mind this chain is for all intents and purposes, impossible to make.)
FT - IS - GIS - Frost
73.3 DPS
Requirements
FT: +142% rech
IS: +0% rech
GIS: +89% rech
Frost: +108% rech
That's much more reasonable to obtain, but it will bleed extra endurance due to using a cone. Factoring in BU (up every 37.19s, minimal global rech required for the chain) that's 84.48 dps. Still 10 dps short of just matching AV regen.
(I just quickly crunched out FT/IS/GIS/FF, and it does nearly identical dps to the above, despite including FF, which is the worst DPA of the set. It's compensated by a shorter animation that allows FT to be used again sooner.)
The best thing Ice could do (that I can see) is pair it with a damage heavy primary and proc the living hell out of it.
Starsman, thanks for replying, as I read your answer in another thread it looks like you're using automated means to generate dynamic attack chains.
I don't believe this is the right approach for something as complicated as attack chains, with so many parameters there's too much room for user error if a program does most of the work, and to me it explains the discrepancy between your numbers and the other analysis I've seen or ingame experience I've had.
YMMV and all that, I'm not attacking you personally but I think your numbers aren't applicable at all to AV soloing.
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If so, then you'd you'd be incorrect. The period of time DPS is calculated over could be a complete 5s chain, or a complete 10s chain, or a dynamic chain over the course of 20 minutes. All you need to do is add up total damage dealt and divide by time.
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Sort off. The shorter the time window, though, the more skewed the value will be to the high end, though. In order to get the most accurate value its best to use a very large time window. I use 60 seconds. At that point changes seem to just affect nearly tie-ups.