Best Tank for DPS and AV soloing?

I'm calculating 135 DPS for my attempt at an Invulnerability/Super Strength DPS tank. So I definitely overestimated when I guessed 150 DPS, but it's still capable of slowly taking out most AVs (slowly). Endurance turned out to be a huge headache. (On a tank! I know!) So I had to back off on some of the slotting and drop the idea for Melt Armor. The DPS calculation is a little high because the build doesn't quite have perma Hasten. It's a little low because you can sometimes hit Hasten during the Rage crash. It's a little high because I didn't count hitting Dull Pain, which you'll probably want for many AV fights. And so on with minor errors. But I'm guessing that its within 5 DPS or so, probably a little on the high side. As far as endurance, it's not quite sustainable, and has an average net loss of 0.21 EPS. Since you have to survive the Rage and Hasten crashes, I'd say you could only safely go for three minutes completely balls out with all your toggles on. Then you need to start making the tough choices about what to turn off (Tough or Weave would do the trick) of if you should slow down slightly.

If anyone wants to review the build or the calculations, here is the spreadsheet, and the build is both below and in the spreadsheet. I'm sure it's not a particularly great tank. Mostly, I'm looking for something for DPS comparison purposes, not claiming that this is a great tank, or even a good AV soloer. Feedback is welcome.

Now for Fire Melee and Energy Melee.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Werthold: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ImpArm-ResDam(3), ImpArm-ResPsi(15), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 1: Jab -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(3), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal(21), Dct'dW-Rchg(21)
Level 4: Haymaker -- Hectmb-Dmg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(5), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Hectmb-Dam%(7), EndRdx-I(9)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Unyielding -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ImpArm-ResDam(11), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(11), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(13), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 10: Boxing -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(40), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), EndRdx-I(50)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), Ksmt-ToHit+(34), Empty(46)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Numna-Heal/Rchg(17), Mrcl-Rcvry+(17), Mrcl-Heal(19), RgnTis-Regen+(19)
Level 16: Resist Physical Damage -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34), RedFtn-Def(37), RedFtn-EndRdx(40), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(48), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(48)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(31), P'Shift-End%(31)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), EndRdx-I(27)
Level 24: Tough -- ImpArm-ResDam(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50), ImpArm-EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Taunt -- Mocking-Acc/Rchg(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(34), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(36), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(36)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Enzym(36), HO:Enzym(37)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Armgdn-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Char -- UbrkCons-Hold(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg(42), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg(42), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg(42), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold(43)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(45), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Apoc-Dam%(46), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 47: Resist Energies -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 49: Resist Elements -- ResDam-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet



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I took a slightly different approach with my will/SS.

My basic chain is KOBlow-&gt;Hay-&gt;Box-&gt;Jab-&gt;Hay-&gt;Boxing. I say "basic" because things get tweaked a little bit when I need to fire hasten and rage. And I thnk I have 1 cycle through when hasten is down that I need to add another boxing in there.

I ended up with this chain for 3 main reasons...I wanted to keep my "theme" of the "super strength" type guy w/out going into the shooting lazer beams out of my head (or trowing fiah) and I, like Werner, dropped punch to save a power and it turned out, the 1 secondish animations of jab and boxing allowed me to chain better. I also wanted to do it with my PvE build, a build that still has hurl, footstomp, stuff that's totally worthless in AV fights, but fun as hell in PvE.

To pump up my DPS I kinda went old school buzz saw with Boxing and added 3 damage procs and 1 or 2 (can't remember off the top of my head) in jab. I also went for +damage in the build (ending up with +29%).

Anyway, this puts my dps somewhere above basic AV regen (I've taken out a handfull of the basic ones, slowly) and below that of a Pylon.

Anyway, I say all this cause I don't see any procs in boxing and I'm curious what you think of them in this applicaiton.

EDIT: You've got 30% more global recharge than me so that will change things, not sure how yet.

How'd you get the Steadfast protection +3def in the build 2x? As a unique, can't you only slot it in one power across entire build, yet you have it in Temp Inv. and Unyield?

Guess would be the 2nd one is a place holder for the PvP +def one.

The reason you're not seeing many procs is that I'm trying to get endurance consumption down to the point of sustainability, and despite all the effort, it's still not quite there. It's one thing to put out a lot of DPS. It's another thing to do so for the long duration of a tank vs. AV fight. Now, blues could definitely take up some of the slack, but for scrappers, when we talk about AV soloing builds, we usually mean “without temps or inspirations” since its pretty easy to, say, soft cap defense when you're chugging purples.

Oh. I should have slotted a Panacea proc. That would help out the endurance issues.

For a more general purpose build, and where you're not specifically putting tools off limits to make the game even more challenging, yes, I'd put some procs in there, but not many. In this case, hitting the necessary recharge on Knockout Blow is important, and its right on the border. So pretty much all we can do is replace the two endurance reducers with procs, a Mako's Bite in Boxing, and an Unbreakable Constraint in Knockout Blow.

And you guessed correctly that the second Steadfast Protection is taking the place of the PvP +defense IO. The empty slot is for the PvP +resist IO. I meant to mention that, but forgot.

Let's see. I can't say for sure that it's the right decision since I didn't check the alternative, but I figured that +recharge was going to do more good than +damage. My reasoning was that the build is running with a double stack of Rage most of the time, so the percentage improvement from +damage bonuses would be very low. Also, the more I improve +recharge, the more Rage stacks.

I DO like the Knockout Blow -&gt; Haymaker -&gt; Punch -&gt; Jab -&gt; Haymaker -&gt; Punch chain for its smashy smashy purity. I'm also pleased that I at least picked up the “right” pattern for the chain, even if I'm not using the same “filler” attacks. But since Fire Melee was on the table, I figured that Fire Blast would be acceptable, and it does allow for higher DPS than the all smashy chain. It's also nice to have a ranged attack. You could pick up Hurl, but it's not as fast, so not as good for picking up annoying stragglers who seem to think that your teammates are tasty. Mind you, with Taunt recharging in 3.19 seconds, that might be a non-issue. Again, Ice would be even better, but I figured it wasn't on the table.

I really need to figure out how to calculate all this. Numbers aren't my thing, but this theorycrafting can help me make some decisions on current builds that I have before I spend millions of influence to find out it doesn't work.

For example, does Energy Melee have a chance to take on AVs? It's a less resisted damage type, has several great single target attacks (although very slow) and paired up with Shields, I think it has a chance, but I have no idea if this is even possible DPS wise.

Or does Fire? Or War Mace? Hmm, I gotta figure out how to calculate this...

[ QUOTE ]
For example, does Energy Melee have a chance to take on AVs? It's a less resisted damage type, has several great single target attacks (although very slow) and paired up with Shields, I think it has a chance, but I have no idea if this is even possible DPS wise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, if nobody steps in saying "Yes, I've done it" or "Yes, here's a build", I'll tackle Energy Melee next, since that was one of the original requests. I'll be pairing it with Invulnerability, though. It should still give us a good idea where Shield Defense would fall.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason you're not seeing many procs is that I'm trying to get endurance consumption down to the point of sustainability, and despite all the effort, it's still not quite there. It's one thing to put out a lot of DPS. It's another thing to do so for the long duration of a tank vs. AV fight. Now, blues could definitely take up some of the slack, but for scrappers, when we talk about AV soloing builds, we usually mean “without temps or inspirations” since its pretty easy to, say, soft cap defense when you're chugging purples.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, I see where you're coming from. My slotting is not that endurance friendly as I have the advantage of QR in my build. But even with that, I have to pick and choose which toggles I need to really make blue mgt easy.

And don't get me wrong, I was just tossing out what I did as "food for thought", no really as criticism. But with different secondary, some of it breaks down.

And as far as AV's go, I may be a tanker at heart, but when it comes to AV soloing, the little I've done, has been by the scrapper rules.

As for +damage vs +recharge, that's a really good question....

Your build has a .1 sec better rechage on KO blow, but a 9 second better rechrage on rage. So for 10 seconds every 70 seconds, you have 80% better damage, but I'd have 29-6=23% better all the time? How does that compare? That's the real question right?

(don't mean to de-rail this thread too much, but with rage stacking, this +dam vs. +recharge hurts my brain a bit)

I'm curious why you don't use ring of fire. It is not a particularly endurance efficient attack, but it has very good dpa and in a discussion of AV's having an immob is very valuable as nothing kills dps like when they run around.

For dpa ring is just a shade lower than haymaker.

In the chain of Knockout Blow -&gt; Haymaker -&gt; Fire Blast -&gt; Punch -&gt; Haymaker -&gt; Fire Blast
Sub it in for punch/boxing.
Thinking 5 piece decimation (including bu proc)+ 1 dam/end.

Should increase dps a bit, but would tax the end bar more too. Deci's boost max end tho, might help a bit.

Mostly I'm just thinking that when that bugger wants to start cruising on you if you are already just a smidgen over the threshold and actually denting it, then the drop in dps could really hurt.

I'm guessing you have a tiny fraction of a second gap on Knockout Blow, something in the 1/20th of a second range. Nothing you'd notice, and nothing that will make a practical difference on DPS.

So yeah, I think it's Rage vs. +damage. My calculations say a 70 second rage cycle averages about 126% damage enhancement, and an 80 second rage cycle averages about 110% damage enhancement. Those are probably very close to what we're seeing. So overly simplifying a bit, my attacks average 100% base + 100% enhancement + 126% Rage + 6% bonus = 332% damage, while yours average 100% base + 100% enhancement + 110% Rage + 29% bonus = 339% damage. So it looks like your approach worked out slightly better, with 339%/332% - 100% = 2% better DPS. Yours may fall behind again because of the slightly lower DPS attacks, but the two are very very close.

I'm thinking a hybrid or just your approach but with Ice Mastery attacks might be best at this point, but I don't think I'll bother fiddling with the build at this point. I'm just trying to get a decent comparison. That we're using very similar chains at very similar recharge producing very similar DPS makes me confident that the numbers are good enough for a comparison to other primaries, which is mostly what we're after.

[ QUOTE ]
in a discussion of AV's having an immob is very valuable as nothing kills dps like when they run around.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Invinc behaves on Tankers like it does on Scrappers (according to CoD, it doesn't stack on Tankers, but it has a higher mag and still the same, long base duration), most AVs won't ever run away.

I can think of only two AVs who moved a bit : Synapse and Mako. Even then, both were running at high speed and instantly coming back to melee, sometimes so fast my attack chain kept going without a pause.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious why you don't use ring of fire. It is not a particularly endurance efficient attack, but it has very good dpa and in a discussion of AV's having an immob is very valuable as nothing kills dps like when they run around.

For dpa ring is just a shade lower than haymaker.

In the chain of Knockout Blow -&gt; Haymaker -&gt; Fire Blast -&gt; Punch -&gt; Haymaker -&gt; Fire Blast
Sub it in for punch/boxing.
Thinking 5 piece decimation (including bu proc)+ 1 dam/end.

Should increase dps a bit, but would tax the end bar more too. Deci's boost max end tho, might help a bit.

Mostly I'm just thinking that when that bugger wants to start cruising on you if you are already just a smidgen over the threshold and actually denting it, then the drop in dps could really hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, unless Mids' is wrong, Ring of Fire doesn't actually have good DPA (damage per Arcanatime). It has five ticks of 9.79 damage each. According to the formula we worked out earlier, that's an average of 9.79 * 4 * (1-0.8^5) = 26.33 damage. It takes (roundup(1.17/0.132)+1)*0.132 = 1.32 seconds. That's a DPA of only 19.94, which is less than HALF of Haymaker, and below Punch, Jab, and pretty much any other alternative.

Now, if all five ticks hit, it would do 48.95 damage, which would be 37.08 DPA, which would indeed be competitive. But that's why I was asking how the fire DoTs worked earlier in the thread. Is Ring of Fire an exception to the rule? If so, yes, it would be a better attack.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in a discussion of AV's having an immob is very valuable as nothing kills dps like when they run around.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Invinc behaves on Tankers like it does on Scrappers (according to CoD, it doesn't stack on Tankers, but it has a higher mag and still the same, long base duration), most AVs won't ever run away.

I can think of only two AVs who moved a bit : Synapse and Mako. Even then, both were running at high speed and instantly coming back to melee, sometimes so fast my attack chain kept going without a pause.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even with no taunt aura at all, the only AV I remember routinely running was Captain W. M. Dietrich. It was nice on Sergei having a chain that included an immobilize for her. Also, I think it has occasionally confused the AI into using mostly ranged attacks. But those are very much the exceptions rather than the rule. I wouldn't bother with an immobilize unless it just happened to fit in and didn't hurt DPS.

[ QUOTE ]
It has five ticks of 9.79 damage each. According to the formula we worked out earlier, that's an average of 9.79 * 4 * (1-0.8^5) = 26.33 damage.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're acting as though the damage on ring of fire has a chance to cut off early. It's not bonus damage. It's like combustion or incinerate, the dot works 100% of the time.

RoF's dot always lands for full value. Most dots do (see Midnight's Grasp, Incinerate, etc). The only dots I know of that are xx% per tick are Fire Melee, Spines, and likely Fire Blast, Thorns.

If you were having end issues before, wouldn't adding an end inefficient attack not be a wise decision to make? If end issues are under control it makes sense, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
Even with no taunt aura at all, the only AV I remember routinely running was Captain W. M. Dietrich. It was nice on Sergei having a chain that included an immobilize for her.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

...

You just had to go and remind me about her, didn't you ?

[Powerforge]

DIEEEETRIIIIIIIIIICHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!

*shakes fist*

[/Powerforge]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you have a tiny fraction of a second gap on Knockout Blow, something in the 1/20th of a second range. Nothing you'd notice, and nothing that will make a practical difference on DPS.

So yeah, I think it's Rage vs. +damage. My calculations say a 70 second rage cycle averages about 126% damage enhancement, and an 80 second rage cycle averages about 110% damage enhancement. Those are probably very close to what we're seeing. So overly simplifying a bit, my attacks average 100% base + 100% enhancement + 126% Rage + 6% bonus = 332% damage, while yours average 100% base + 100% enhancement + 110% Rage + 29% bonus = 339% damage. So it looks like your approach worked out slightly better, with 339%/332% - 100% = 2% better DPS. Yours may fall behind again because of the slightly lower DPS attacks, but the two are very very close.

I'm thinking a hybrid or just your approach but with Ice Mastery attacks might be best at this point, but I don't think I'll bother fiddling with the build at this point. I'm just trying to get a decent comparison. That we're using very similar chains at very similar recharge producing very similar DPS makes me confident that the numbers are good enough for a comparison to other primaries, which is mostly what we're after.

[/ QUOTE ]

/agreed. We seem to be discusion very small differences. Thanks for the help.

[ QUOTE ]
RoF's dot always lands for full value. Most dots do (see Midnight's Grasp, Incinerate, etc). The only dots I know of that are xx% per tick are Fire Melee, Spines, and likely Fire Blast, Thorns.

If you were having end issues before, wouldn't adding an end inefficient attack not be a wise decision to make? If end issues are under control it makes sense, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, I'm not a Fire expert, so bear with me while I get to play newb and try to confirm everything. We're saying that Ring of Fire's DoTs always land. Fire Melee's DoTs can shut down early, so follow the formula we worked out earlier. And Fire Blast is an unknown? Can someone confirm whether the DoTs for Fire Blast can shut down early or not?

And yeah, Ring of Fire may cause further endurance problems. But I also need to see how much the Panacea proc can help. If that can make up the difference or more, then I'd say we're fine.

(edit: Wait... you said that Incinerate's DoTs always land, while Fire Melee's DoTs don't, but Incinerate is IN Fire Melee? Maybe I'd better just get a list of attacks. Some of this I can do myself by going into the character creator:

Scorch: 80%
Fire Sword: 80%
Combustion: 100%
Breath of Fire: 80%
Fire Sword Circle: 80%
Incinerate: 100%
Greater Fire Sword: 80%
Ring of Fire: 100%
Fire Blast: 80%???

Nice and complicated. )

As far as I understand, the chance to cancel is only if there is a chance to not happen. So, 80% chance of DoT will likely mean it will have a chance to cancel on each tick.

If the DoT will always happen, then it never cancels mid way so you can account it for full damage.

There CAN be exceptions, but I think every power I seen that has a non 100% chance to DoT can cancel on miss. Yes, this also means that Fire Blast DoTs behave the same way as long as they have a chance. Fire Breath, for instance, is sure DoT.

Edit: also don't forget the .8 in your formula is the chance to hit. Not sure your formula but put a 1 there for 100% and you get division by zero that is, off course, error and also a hint that the formula does not applies for sure damage. But put .9999999 and you will see that out of 5 ticks you land 4.9999.

[ QUOTE ]
Fire Breath, for instance, is sure DoT.

[/ QUOTE ]
According to the character creator, the ticks are 80%, so I'd assume they can cancel further ticks?

I said you could use the Ice (sort of simulating ice breath) for an APP. So go ahead and as Jean Luc would say, "Make it So." Also, would lazer beam eyes be ok to use? It has the -def. but not sure on how that balances vs DPS.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fire Breath, for instance, is sure DoT.

[/ QUOTE ]
According to the character creator, the ticks are 80%, so I'd assume they can cancel further ticks?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... let me log in (city of data says 3 * 36.6 Fire damage over 2.10 seconds (after 1 second delay))

Edit: note I said Fire Breath (blaster) no Breath of Fire (tanker)

Hah! When I said Fire Blast, I meant Blaster Fire Blast, not the power. Just tested, Pyre/Fire Blast has a terminating dot too, as I suspected it would.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok...How do ya'll pull up those nifty AV combat attributes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, could someone answer this question, instead of starting another thread in questions, I figured it is in the same vein of what we are talking about here. Good to know what resistances you are facing and how much health they have left.

You use the Power Analyzer temp power (you can buy one in WW for 10k, usually).