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Stone Melee shows up at the top of Starsman's charts at 250% recharge, so it might be a strong candidate as well. He also has War Mace up there with the same score as Energy Melee and Fiery Melee.
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Want to make a small note here: I'm in the progress of replacing my charts with a newer version. The tanker ones are done. One thing i always disliked was people quoting how "X set is 3rd best" when the difference between the first and the third was of just about .05 points. So, in this version I went ahead and rounded things to the first decimal place. Tie ups may have a margin of error and be anywhere between .049 higher or lower than you see them there, but since my estimate is loose as it is, I don't think the level of precision is even useful to begin with.
Also note that there is now an endurance efficiency chart there to help determine what sets can sustain that longer. Fiery Melee, thanks for all the dot and bonuses, actually gets to match Scrapper Katana endurance per damage AFTER criticals vs non-minions. That's a hell of a lot of endurance efficiency on the set.
Ice Melee is not only the worst ST damage but also the most end inefficient set almost tied up with Dual Blades that is inefficient due to Blinding Feint spamming.
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Ice Melee is not only the worst ST damage but also the most end inefficient set almost tied up with Dual Blades that is inefficient due to Blinding Feint spamming.
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Including, or discluding combos? The BF -> Attack Vitals is pretty end efficient, iirc. (Forgot how much recharge that requires to attain, though.)
Unfortunately, cant calculate combos in the current implementation. One of the reasons why this may be may last update and I'll scrap the project in favor of an all new tool.
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Wow this thread has grown .... that's what I get for going away for the weekend.
I just wanted to extend an apology to Sarrate and Starsman (and the respondants of this thread by proxy) for haranguing them as much as I have. I don't know what got into me but you guys definitely didn't deserve it. Next time I'll keep my poor attitude and crappy math to myself 
BTW good thread (kudos to the normal gang and Werner for his invaluable insights) and I look forward to seeing the new charts Stars comes up with.
Starsman: I figured as much. It pretty much renders your tool ineffective at determining DB's ranking against other sets. (I don't blame you, combos are problematic to compute dynamically. Even if you had an actual calculator that simulated attack usage, it'd have to look ahead long enough to make sure powers will be recharged in the future.)
Kruunch: Already forgotten. An argument(s) on an gaming forum isn't worth holding grudges for. 
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I figured as much. It pretty much renders your tool ineffective at determining DB's ranking against other sets.
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It does! I think I had a disclaimer on the page at some point, not sure if it's still there or I missed it in a revision. Will check the page again to make sure it is there.
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I don't blame you, combos are problematic to compute dynamically. Even if you had an actual calculator that simulated attack usage, it'd have to look ahead long enough to make sure powers will be recharged in the future.
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Also there is the fact that combos have increased chance of failure. Where attacks have just 5% chance to fail, combos need 3 consecutive tests against that floor not to fail. That is a bigger issue than looking ahead.
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I don't blame you, combos are problematic to compute dynamically. Even if you had an actual calculator that simulated attack usage, it'd have to look ahead long enough to make sure powers will be recharged in the future.
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Also there is the fact that combos have increased chance of failure. Where attacks have just 5% chance to fail, combos need 3 consecutive tests against that floor not to fail. That is a bigger issue than looking ahead.
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That isn't even the real problem. When I scripted up a dual blades attack generator back when DB first came out, the real headache came when I realized that even when I play DB, I will often change attack sequence on the fly when a power fails and breaks a combo, in order to align myself with an alternate (useful) combo. Its usually the case (if you are specifically talking about generating damage against a single target, like an AV or a pylon) that whether an attack hits or misses doesn't change which attack would be best to use next. That's not true for Dual Blades because a miss that breaks a combo can suddenly change the relative values of the next few attacks.
One of these days I'll blow the dust off of that offensive sim that I wrote to pair with the mitigation one and try to resolve those problems. I think, in fact, I have a min/max (alpha-beta) algorithm that would work fairly well to try to determine reasonable if not perfectly optimal chains, but I'm honestly writing too much code now to want to invent all new coding projects at the moment. And I'm not so much interested in singular-target optimal chains as I am in mixed-target damage calculations (which optimum attack chains are not very good at estimating in my opinion).
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me Please list them, thanks in advance.
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me Please list them, thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you can look up all enemy resistances in the game here. If you're doing 130 DPS, and the AV has 20% resistance, then you'll do 130 DPS * (100% - 20%) = 104 DPS. But since an AV heals 94 hit points per second, you're really netting out to 10 DPS. Be prepared for a VERY long fight.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me Please list them, thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you can look up all enemy resistances in the game here. If you're doing 130 DPS, and the AV has 20% resistance, then you'll do 130 DPS * (100% - 20%) = 104 DPS. But since an AV heals 94 hit points per second, you're really netting out to 10 DPS. Be prepared for a VERY long fight.
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Since "VERY long fight" is a bit ambiguous... that's 45+ minutes long.
Also, when calculating dps for mixed sets it'd be a good idea for you to keep track of the damage components separately. That way, when you run up against an AV with uneven resistance between the types it's easy to just apply the resistance to each type and add them together.
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Also, when calculating dps for mixed sets it'd be a good idea for you to keep track of the damage components separately. That way, when you run up against an AV with uneven resistance between the types it's easy to just apply the resistance to each type and add them together.
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It also does a better job than getting drunk at burning your overrated brain neurons.
I'm guessing that to figure out how long your fight is going to be, you have to know how much health the AVs have. Where do you find that out?
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It also does a better job than getting drunk at burning your overrated brain neurons.
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Starsman: It's not that bad. Instead of having one column in a spreadsheet you have two. Tedious or annoying? Sure.
Of course, I can't attest to the potency of drunkeness at destroying brain cells; I've never been drunk.
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I'm guessing that to figure out how long your fight is going to be, you have to know how much health the AVs have. Where do you find that out?
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darminiam: Find an AV in game and just hover your mouse over their health until it displays. (Here is a screenshot using the Power Analyzer, but it's not necessary.) I generally just use 28k, it's close enough and easier to remember.
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Starsman: It's not that bad. Instead of having one column in a spreadsheet you have two. Tedious or annoying? Sure.
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2? What about the use of epics? Mix of damage due to primary/secondary? Procs? Nah, if you want to go for sures, you got to do 8. 9 when you count for the Total column. Depending on build you may be able to get away with 2 or 3, but me? I'd have to go all the way.
However, I meant the poster himself being told to track these would cause him a headache, specially if he already is asking for help calculating the chains and resistances.
Darminiam, I made a calculator you can look at:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...fgTw&hl=en
If you want to edit the parameters, log in, then go to File and create a copy, that way you get an editable copy you can toy with. If the duration fields go red, that means you can't kill the target. I made this a long time ago for personal use, never posted it before so you may find bugs while toying with parameters.
It even allows you to enter foe resistance and, in the cases where the AV may has regen buffs, how much regen buff he has.
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2? What about the use of epics? Mix of damage due to primary/secondary? Procs? Nah, if you want to go for sures, you got to do 8. 9 when you count for the Total column. Depending on build you may be able to get away with 2 or 3, but me? I'd have to go all the way.
However, I meant the poster himself being told to track these would cause him a headache, specially if he already is asking for help calculating the chains and resistances.
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Ahh, very true. I concede your point.
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Darminiam, I made a calculator you can look at:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...fgTw&hl=en
If you want to edit the parameters, log in, then go to File and create a copy, that way you get an editable copy you can toy with. If the duration fields go red, that means you can't kill the target. I made this a long time ago for personal use, never posted it before so you may find bugs while toying with parameters.
It even allows you to enter foe resistance and, in the cases where the AV may has regen buffs, how much regen buff he has.
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Hmm, 1.2 scale / sec is 104 dps, but it's saying a lvl50 AV is unkillable. Bug?
Hmmmm maybe. At some point I dowloaded this to excel and keept working it locally... got to revise it again. But the base HP columns are right (I think.) Those can still be used as reference.
Yikes, yea there are a few bugs... working on fixing them now.
OK, I THINK I fixed it. Fighting between yawns and dog so not sure. Would welcome a second set of eyes looking at the numbers and telling me if it looks right.
I decided to post this here instead of creating a new thread since its based on the info in here. Ok, so from everything I've learned here, I've decided to try the following.
First, I'm trying to get a SD/WM build that could take on AVs, but I'm unable to create a successful attack string that would have a good DPS output. I also did some searches to see if anyone has talked about this but nothing.
I was trying Shatter -> Jawbreaker -> Clobber -> Jawbreaker but Jawbreaker seems to need almost 300% recharge to support this. I was thinking Shatter -> Jawbreaker -> Clobber -> Pulverize -> Jawbreaker but not sure if this is the best use of a string.
Also, once again, I was thinking about the -res PvP proc to put into Shatter since for the most part it could act as ST attack when focused on one target. I tend to think of this attack as an ST that can sometimes hit others. That could help out with the AV resistance.
Why an SD/WM? I have one readily available. I know that Smashing is a heavily resisted type.
The second option is an SD/Fire, but I have to get that character to 50 (which shouldn't take long since I have one up there). I was going to try Energy with SD, but I would have to level one up from scratch. And then there is the fact that the set doesnt currently make me happy, and my regen goes down ever time I use Energy Transfer.
And for the enhancements to do this, I'll end up doing what I always do. Take the enhancements from one character and carry them over to the next character since I have so many vet reward respecs whenever I create a new character.
What do you guys think? Should I go forward with this? Think its worth trying it out?
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me Please list them, thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you can look up all enemy resistances in the game here. If you're doing 130 DPS, and the AV has 20% resistance, then you'll do 130 DPS * (100% - 20%) = 104 DPS. But since an AV heals 94 hit points per second, you're really netting out to 10 DPS. Be prepared for a VERY long fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well unfortunetly for me I am running RC Windows 7, and don't have the necessary software to open up your link. Have trouble with a lot of stuff, it is an RC after all, although it is better than a finished Vista OS. . .SO. . .ya. Anyway, could you just give me the Top 3 AV's with the highest resists and what they resist. Then I can plug your formula in for the DPS's you already gave me, thanks.
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Ok, so how do I figure out my DPS with all 3 mentioned (SS, Energy, Fire) in comparison to the "Big Boy AV's" Resists? Thanks in advance. Or if you aren't tired of putting up the numbers for me Please list them, thanks in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you can look up all enemy resistances in the game here. If you're doing 130 DPS, and the AV has 20% resistance, then you'll do 130 DPS * (100% - 20%) = 104 DPS. But since an AV heals 94 hit points per second, you're really netting out to 10 DPS. Be prepared for a VERY long fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well unfortunetly for me I am running RC Windows 7, and don't have the necessary software to open up your link. Have trouble with a lot of stuff, it is an RC after all, although it is better than a finished Vista OS. . .SO. . .ya. Anyway, could you just give me the Top 3 AV's with the highest resists and what they resist. Then I can plug your formula in for the DPS's you already gave me, thanks.
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Here are a handful of the more common AVs with high resistance to smashing, energy or fire:
Dominatrix 50% to all of those
Lord Recluse 50% smashing, 30% energy, 20% fire
Nemesis 20% to all of those, plus 20 second invulnerable periods
Infernal 25% smashing, 50% fire
Marauder 50% smashing
Nightstar 50% smashing
Shadowhunter 50% smashing
Siege 50% smashing
Tyrant 25% to all of those
Lord of War: Hro'Dtohz 30% smashing and energy
Looks like smashing is a big loser here.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
[ QUOTE ]
I decided to post this here instead of creating a new thread since its based on the info in here. Ok, so from everything I've learned here, I've decided to try the following.
First, I'm trying to get a SD/WM build that could take on AVs, but I'm unable to create a successful attack string that would have a good DPS output. I also did some searches to see if anyone has talked about this but nothing.
I was trying Shatter -> Jawbreaker -> Clobber -> Jawbreaker but Jawbreaker seems to need almost 300% recharge to support this. I was thinking Shatter -> Jawbreaker -> Clobber -> Pulverize -> Jawbreaker but not sure if this is the best use of a string.
Also, once again, I was thinking about the -res PvP proc to put into Shatter since for the most part it could act as ST attack when focused on one target. I tend to think of this attack as an ST that can sometimes hit others. That could help out with the AV resistance.
Why an SD/WM? I have one readily available. I know that Smashing is a heavily resisted type.
The second option is an SD/Fire, but I have to get that character to 50 (which shouldn't take long since I have one up there). I was going to try Energy with SD, but I would have to level one up from scratch. And then there is the fact that the set doesnt currently make me happy, and my regen goes down ever time I use Energy Transfer.
And for the enhancements to do this, I'll end up doing what I always do. Take the enhancements from one character and carry them over to the next character since I have so many vet reward respecs whenever I create a new character.
What do you guys think? Should I go forward with this? Think its worth trying it out?
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Well, let me take a look. Looks like the key is getting Clobber up as often as possible, then using some combination of Jawbreaker, Pulverize and Shatter to fill in the rest.
So with a little poking, I'd suggest Clobber -> Jawbreaker -> Shatter. It only takes three attacks, Clobber is at +257% recharge (you want it very high like that), Shatter is at +250% recharge, and Jawbreaker is down at a mere +150% recharge.
That's higher DPS than your desired chain of Clobber -> Jawbreaker -> Shatter -> Jawbreaker, which wouldn't have been possible anyway due to requiring +589% recharge in Jawbreaker.
On the surface, it looks capable of soloing AVs even without the Shield Defense primary, so you should be good to go.
Hmmm, I threw together a quick Invulnerability/War Mace build, and while it does 130 DPS, it also sucks down endurance at 0.74 EPS net and isn't any more survivable than the other ones I threw together. So it needs work, and getting endurance under control would probably cost a fair amount of that DPS.
But then Shield Defense should get you that DPS right back. I think it's a good AV soloing candidate with the right build.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Thanks for that Werner. It took out some of the headaches on figuring out what I can do for a DPS chain. But it does look like I'll have a hard time with some of those AVs if I go the Smashing route with War Mace. Hmm. I may be going with Fire or DM then.
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But then Shield Defense should get you that DPS right back. I think it's a good AV soloing candidate with the right build.
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Shield Defense would present more Endurance woes no? (thinking avid use of Shield Charge with the same end useage as Inv just from the toggles / Active Defense combo).
I would also think survivability would be an issue with SD unless something like Aid Self or Dark Melee is used, as the AV will hit you even with overcapped Defense.
This is where primary and secondary synergy really come into play in my mind (is also why I really like SD/DM).
Yeah, I'm figuring the same thing. I'm going to respec my SD/Dark Melee tanker and try to do it with him first to get the experience. If I can, then I'll try a different powerset. Gotta get the experience first before jumping in.
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Well, thanks for all the hard work, it all looks pretty good. I say pretty good, b/c as you know the real test is in the field.
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Agreed. Numbers ultimately don't matter. Results matter. I'm pretty confident in the general approach of how I'm calculating and the kind of damage output you can achieve. What I'm not confident in is the survivability. I'm kind of winging it on the tanker front due to lack of familiarity and because it wasn't important for a mere DPS comparison. So I highly recommend that you only use my posted builds for ideas, required recharge, attack slotting, that kind of thing. Please don't just use them directly. Please use your own knowledge of tanking to make them more viable.
Actually, I'm doing a similar DPS comparison for scrappers. In that case, I'm confident that NONE of them will solo AVs without inspirations because they've given up far too much survivability for the DPS. That might be the case here as well.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks