[ QUOTE ]
I laugh when someone says "lol get over it nerds" in this thread, because they don't get it. Nobody wants to murder this guy, we don't wanna flex our e-pecs and go over there and threaten to beat him up at a gas station in Sac-town, and we aren't afraid of furry things because he griefed people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Though I was never greifed by Twixt, I am afraid of furries. Can I sue somebody?
"Don't unravel them-- your ears were meant to be that way."
-Steve Aylett
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I laugh when someone says "lol get over it nerds" in this thread, because they don't get it. Nobody wants to murder this guy, we don't wanna flex our e-pecs and go over there and threaten to beat him up at a gas station in Sac-town, and we aren't afraid of furry things because he griefed people.
[/ QUOTE ]
Though I was never greifed by Twixt, I am afraid of furries. Can I sue somebody?
[/ QUOTE ]
I met a guy at my freshman orientation that was like: "Oh, by the way, I'm a furry." Needless to say, I scooted away from him.
Twixt PvP'd. People cried.
But submitting videogame PvP as a formal research project? That's one of the dumbest things I heard in my life. Twixt may be a G, but he's about to lose his job.
[ QUOTE ]
The truth is that this guy wrote a "research paper" with little to no intellectual value concerning online communities ("I griefed people, now I'm gonna downplay it and say that they overreacted.").
[/ QUOTE ]
This sums it all up.
There is nothing to "get over".
But if you put your work out there for public comsumption, people will let you know if they think it is crap or not.
And his work was crap.
[ QUOTE ]
Twixt PvP'd. People cried.
But submitting videogame PvP as a formal research project? That's one of the dumbest things I heard in my life. Twixt may be a G, but he's about to lose his job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt anyone is about to lose their job....
lol......
I think more than anything, people are madadadadadad at getting ganked by a 55 year old professor while PvPing.
HAHAHAHAHA!
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'll craft a rebuttal of his paper. For a scientist to publish and then publicize a defense of griefing... yeah. That needs a proper answer.
Anyone know what the best, science-based approach to disproving a science paper (mass media or sociology) would be? Are there standards to apply or a template to use?
Would anyone like to collaborate?
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I just got done reading the article and the whole paper he wrote. I also forwarded the link to a Psychology Major friend of mine. She wants to use his paper and experiances as resource material for a paper she's writing on Divergent Anti-Social Disorders. And. She's. 100%. Serious.
I Couldn't stop laughing for almost 5 minutes.
Ping, if you could, please forward me a copy of the response letter you write, and let me know if she can use it in her paper as well.
I'll be writing a retort that she may use, but I think multiple responses would do better.
Member - Pingus, & Legendaries
Angry Sysop 50 BRUTE - Angry Woodsman 50 TANK - Angry Florist 21 CONTROLLER
"Did your Phantom Army just take the Elevator? Imaginary People riding Elevators? *facepalm*
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Twixt PvP'd. People cried.
But submitting videogame PvP as a formal research project? That's one of the dumbest things I heard in my life. Twixt may be a G, but he's about to lose his job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt anyone is about to lose their job....
lol......
I think more than anything, people are madadadadadad at getting ganked by a 55 year old professor while PvPing.
HAHAHAHAHA!
[/ QUOTE ]
Or all those formally responding never actually got ganked by Twixt. You know, whichever is actually true.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
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I think I'll craft a rebuttal of his paper. For a scientist to publish and then publicize a defense of griefing... yeah. That needs a proper answer.
Anyone know what the best, science-based approach to disproving a science paper (mass media or sociology) would be? Are there standards to apply or a template to use?
Would anyone like to collaborate?
[/ QUOTE ]
I just got done reading the article and the whole paper he wrote. I also forwarded the link to a Psychology Major friend of mine. She wants to use his paper and experiances as resource material for a paper she's writing on Divergent Anti-Social Disorders. And. She's. 100%. Serious.
I Couldn't stop laughing for almost 5 minutes.
Ping, if you could, please forward me a copy of the response letter you write, and let me know if she can use it in her paper as well.
I'll be writing a retort that she may use, but I think multiple responses would do better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Will do.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
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Twixt PvP'd. People cried.
But submitting videogame PvP as a formal research project? That's one of the dumbest things I heard in my life. Twixt may be a G, but he's about to lose his job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt anyone is about to lose their job....
lol......
I think more than anything, people are madadadadadad at getting ganked by a 55 year old professor while PvPing.
HAHAHAHAHA!
[/ QUOTE ]
Or all those formally responding never actually got ganked by Twixt. You know, whichever is actually true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but then if that's the case, why do you care what this guy does with his research? It's not like the results impact your life in some way.....
There's plenty of ways to get your 15 minutes of fame rather than trying to make a statement by reporting some random professor for sketchy experimental methods.
All the meanwhile....he's probably laughing while raking in 6 figures a year. Something I doubt the majority of people here do. Its amazing to me what random people find is their business to investigate.
The guy is a "internationally-recognized scholar of digital media and play" yet you guys think you're going to get him fired over this?
Hilarious....
Actually most institutions take ethics very seriously and our government takes research on human subjects even more serious (although they were the worst violators in the past)
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Actually most institutions take ethics very seriously and our government takes research on human subjects even more serious (although they were the worst violators in the past)
[/ QUOTE ]
And you dont think anyone at Loyola reviewed his work prior to it being published?
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Twixt PvP'd. People cried.
But submitting videogame PvP as a formal research project? That's one of the dumbest things I heard in my life. Twixt may be a G, but he's about to lose his job.
[/ QUOTE ]
I seriously doubt anyone is about to lose their job....
lol......
I think more than anything, people are madadadadadad at getting ganked by a 55 year old professor while PvPing.
HAHAHAHAHA!
[/ QUOTE ]
Or all those formally responding never actually got ganked by Twixt. You know, whichever is actually true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but then if that's the case, why do you care what this guy does with his research? It's not like the results impact your life in some way.....
There's plenty of ways to get your 15 minutes of fame rather than trying to make a statement by reporting some random professor for sketchy experimental methods.
All the meanwhile....he's probably laughing while raking in 6 figures a year. Something I doubt the majority of people here do. Its amazing to me what random people find is their business to investigate.
The guy is a "internationally-recognized scholar of digital media and play" yet you guys think you're going to get him fired over this?
Hilarious....
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to get anyone fired, and while I've been ganked plenty by Twixt, I usually didn't care ... Twixt was an easy kill. Pop an orange, a purple and 12 reds and wax that [censored].
Anyway, human subject research is usually taken pretty seriously - if he is publishing research as a sociological analysis, he's probably fine, but if he's actually trying to get something published in an APA peer-approved journal, it could be a problem.
Then those of you trying to take this to another level better be ready to step before a ethics review board to state your case. Otherwise, its your word against again...a ""internationally-recognized scholar".
Good luck with that!
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Then those of you trying to take this to another level better be ready to step before a ethics review board to state your case. Otherwise, its your word against again...a ""internationally-recognized scholar".
Good luck with that!
[/ QUOTE ]
You're trying too hard, mang
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Maybe, but then if that's the case, why do you care what this guy does with his research? It's not like the results impact your life in some way.....
[/ QUOTE ]
If parents read something of this nature and determine their kids no longer should play the game because we are hate filled and angry, less revenue for COH. Less revenue for COH impacts all of us.
Wife reads article and determines her husband is filled with hate and anger and asks him to stop. See above end result.
To think that popular opinion or media have no effect on your life is a little naive.
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There's plenty of ways to get your 15 minutes of fame rather than trying to make a statement by reporting some random professor for sketchy experimental methods.
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I don't think any of us are looking for 15 mins of fame, rather to correct a wrong against people in the community and preserve our image.
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All the meanwhile....he's probably laughing while raking in 6 figures a year. Something I doubt the majority of people here do. Its amazing to me what random people find is their business to investigate.
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I rather doubt he comes anywhere near 6 figures a year. PhD's don't generally make that much. Books are where they MIGHT make something and he wants to profit off a slanderous account of the game you play.
Why are you making it your business what we pursue? You could be considered just as guilty. You're the anti-voice on the forum, by proclaiming your opinion, you're getting you 5 mins of fame... sort of. Heh.
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The guy is a "internationally-recognized scholar of digital media and play" yet you guys think you're going to get him fired over this?
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that's the phrase that was used in the article the reporter wrote? The same one that doesn't have any sort of alternate viewpoints or rebuttals? Just because no one has stood up to a wrong doesn't mean they shouldn't.
I don't believe anyone here is trying to get him fired. But to make sure that the extremely skewed view he is present, which includes his lying by omission is corrected.
If we want to take the time to do this, what business is it of yours? Are you so insulated in Stoned Templars that you care not for the rest of the server or how people who pay for it may be perceived?
Your own reputation is being tarnished whether you realize it or not.
War Admiral, I like teaming with you, but I believe you're not really thinking this through to the fullest extent.
-DF
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Maybe, but then if that's the case, why do you care what this guy does with his research? It's not like the results impact your life in some way.....
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Because I feel it's wrong of him to depict our community as a whole in such a negative manner. I'm not going to earn any fame out of the fact that I'm sending a letter to the editor of a newspaper in a city 1000 miles away from where I live. I could care less about how much he makes or if it will somehow lead to some personal gain of my own. I simply feel it's not appropriate for him to present our entire community in such an extreme light without providing the entire story.
It's not logical for me to stand up against someone painting myself and my friends in a negative light without cause?
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
[ QUOTE ]
At the request of a friend, Ive read through this thread, the newspaper article, iltats and VikiVees letters, and Prof. Myers paper. Let me add a few things to the discussion as someone with a background in social research online. I know some of what Im posting isnt going to make some of you following this thread real happy, but dont shoot the messenger bearing the bad news. Im just adding a few points that might be relevant to the discussion. I have a tl;dr at the bottom for those of you who dont want to slog through all of this. 
First off you might be asking, Who is this clown? Im a sociology grad student who is also doing qualitative research into online games. My interest is social support, not deviant behavior, and my methodology is rather different from what Prof. Myers used. For those of you interested in such things, I used participant observation combined with focus groups for my data collection.
I agree with Mysidia that Myers work was more or less an observational case study and not really an experiment in the classic sense of a scientific experiment. It falls out of being a participant observation since this study was not watching the natural social processes in the field, but instead engaged in deliberate set of behaviors in order to provoke a response. Myers paper was a piece of qualitative research more interested in the dialog and actions of the observed rather than the quantitative counting of noses or comparing results between a test and control group.
On the point that Myers did not get informed consent from his observed subjects: Sorry folks, hes probably in the clear on that one. This kind of observational data collection is of behavior taking place in an environment with no expectation of privacy (see NCSofts privacy policy), so as long as he maintained confidentiality by not using anyones real name (in-game and forum handles should be changed as well), he would not be required to gain informed consent from those he observed in game. Same for getting the go ahead from the game company hosting the game. For example, if I was observing mosh pits, I wouldnt be required to get permission from the club owner to watch a mosh pit in their club. I can just pay at the door, go in, and conduct my observations.
As for the consent of the parents of minors: When you combine this from the EULA;
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(a) Eligibility. By clicking the "I Accept" button you represent that you are an adult 18 years of age or older or, if under 18 years of age, that you have the consent of a parent or guardian and will provide their details where requested.
[/ QUOTE ]
with the afore mentioned no expectation of privacy, he probably wont get into trouble for that either. His Institutional Review Board (IRB) committee will probably see it something like this: While the game is something the players pay to participate in, the game world they play in isnt like a bathroom where there is that wonderful expectation of privacy. Its more like the nightclub I used in my earlier example. Now if Myers conducted interviews or focus groups, then he would have to get the proper informed consent and have the opt-out option from those participants. My own IRB review covered this extensively, and I specifically talked to the head of the committee about it. Chances are there will be no reprimand based solely on not getting informed consent.
On the other hand, unlike my research, Myers did not just watch people interact while playing. He engaged in provocative action in order to test social boundaries. This is where he hits the line of questionable ethics. His breaching behaviors did cause people distress and made at least one individual mad enough to issue a death threat. Applying that sort of stimulus to a group without informed consent or offering therapeutic counseling to those who feel they suffered harm afterwards may be something he will get reprimanded for. However, since Myers claims he did not break the rules of the game with his bad behavior, only the social rules of the players, he might be able to argue that his breaching behaviors were something players should have reasonably expected. Additionally, he can argue that his actions were the only way to successfully assess those social boundaries. Personally, I think his methods were a bit dodgy here. There are other means of assessing those boundaries without honking people off in a persistent fashion. I can only guess what, if anything, Myers IRB committee will do about this one. My bet, no action.
Now before I get strung up as a heretic, sympathizer, or collaborator, let me say that I wasnt all that impressed with Myers paper or his methods. In the realm of qualitative research, there is an expectation of self-discloser about your role as researcher in conducting the study. To quote iltat:
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Myers presented the extreme negatives of our community as the standard. No one condones the threats that were directed towards Myers, but he leaves out that he verbally attacked, insulted, harassed, and stalked many of these same individuals. Some of his harassments are still present on our forums.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now if this verbal abuse was not approved by his IRB in advance, that could be some hot water right there. Stalking is prohibited under the EULA, which would leave him a leg short in defending his research methods before the IRB. Even if it doesnt result in a reprimand, it constitutes inadequate self-discloser, at least in the reporting, and should be considered sloppy.
Additionally, as most social researchers do when reading an article, I looked over Myers bibliography. The thing that struck me is that we have a grand total of one author in common. Myers did not reference some of the leading names in online research such as Wellman, Rheingold, DiMaggio, Hine, and particularly Williams, who actually did a study of deviant behavior in an online environment already. Part of doing research is doing a literature review to become familiar with what has already been done. Again, sloppy in action.
My last sloppy to cover is something iltat pointed out in his letter to the editor:
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Myers portrayed our community as one filled with anger and hate, but a minimal amount of research would quickly find the error in this assessment. Our community includes a player-founded taxi service and emergency medical technicians who voluntarily help new players. Our forums include well-wishes for players who have babies, get married, or go off to war. We have sponsored charities, conventions, and even a few weddings. None of these made it into Myers paper.
[/ QUOTE ]
iltat is right. Doing research in an MMORPG is doing research in one small part of a very large online world. By only looking at the one small part of what is already a small part of that world without trying to take the larger MMORPG community you are studying into account is doing a disservice to that community and will skew your conclusions.
For those with a case of tl;dr:
Chances are that Prof. Myers is not going to be in trouble with his IRB committee over his research. There is one area I think he pushed the ethical lines, and in my opinion should not have done so, but he may still be on the safe side of not having an ethical violation. (Hmmm, strictly within the letter but outside the intent. Sound familiar?)
Even if nothing comes of an IRB review of Myers research, I believe it is not up to snuff with much of the preexisting research into online interaction. Unless one of his other articles is far better than this, his work will not be a source for my own research.
This PSA brought to you by Night Mission Enterprises. Dont call us, we wont call you.
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Not saying he will get in trouble because i am not sure he did this as a "loyola professor". I do disagree about the informed consent though if he did go to an IRB. He used human test subjects in which he manipulated their environment in a stressful way. The AAS and NIH are starting to look into the ethical implications of online research and the perceptions of privacy. See the wording is perception so even if it is not realistic if you have a perceved notion of privacy things start to get a bit hairy. I brought up to Mr. Myers weather the EULA would be a psudo informed consent and he got confused about that question. He answered by telling me he didn't break the EULA. Other issues with IRB would be poor experimental design, population, and risk/reward ratio. There are several things the board looks at I posted the CFR for IRB aproval on the Justice board and i think i reposted it on the city life.
But my thought process was similar to yours a few months ago when him and his work came up due to this blog . I asked him alot about IRB, informed consent and minors but he eventually just blew me off. He did state it wasn't research in an scientific way.
I just hate bad science.
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Then those of you trying to take this to another level better be ready to step before a ethics review board to state your case. Otherwise, its your word against again...a ""internationally-recognized scholar".
Good luck with that!
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You're trying too hard, mang
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid I'm not the one trying too hard around here. 
[ QUOTE ]
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Then those of you trying to take this to another level better be ready to step before a ethics review board to state your case. Otherwise, its your word against again...a ""internationally-recognized scholar".
Good luck with that!
[/ QUOTE ]
You're trying too hard, mang
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid I'm not the one trying too hard around here.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, it's just you.
Sorry to anyone who I've offended, but I live my life without any concern of how others perceive me or think of me. If I obsessed on what others thought about me, I would never leave my house.
If some parent or wife were to disallow their kids or husband to play this game solely based on 1 persons experience, then I feel sorry for not only them, but the people who can't experience the game for themselves. I hope to think most people arnt so short-sighted and shallow.
If anything, this is an issue for the Devs or NCSoft to pursue, not one for the players. In the end, its their game to protect and if they require the player-base to do their job, then they arnt paying attention to whats going on.
I'm sure there have been many other reviews, experiments, data collections on players behavior in games such as these and without doubt, the player base most likely has taken exception to any negative data that was concluded.
But after its all said and done, the games keep coming each year. Any one of us could have done the exact same experiment this guy did, but he's only a target due to "job" and social standing...which I'm sure he prepared to defend.
Some of you are worried about the games image and that's understandable. But really, how many people other than gamers are going to read this guys work? Probably not many and those who do, might or might not care what conclusions this one person has drawn from his own experience.
Debating the merits of this study is ok. Personally attacking the professor is a violation of the Message Forum Rules and Guideline. As I said in the general thread, let's be the bigger people in this situation.
-Mod8-
If you are using Latin in your post you are probably trolling
Have a question? Try the PlayNC Knowledge Base
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Debating the merits of this study is ok. Personally attacking the professor is a violation of the Message Forum Rules and Guideline. As I said in the general thread, let's be the bigger people in this situation.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ding!
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Debating the merits of this study is ok. Personally attacking the professor is a violation of the Message Forum Rules and Guideline. As I said in the general thread, let's be the bigger people in this situation.
[/ QUOTE ]
This means we can take it offline to deal with, if I understand you correctly. The Forums specifically have a rule about attacking a person.
However if we choose to take this offline from the official CoH/V message boards that would be our perrogative, correct?
Just don't insult him on these boards-Mod08
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Actually most institutions take ethics very seriously and our government takes research on human subjects even more serious (although they were the worst violators in the past)
[/ QUOTE ]
And you dont think anyone at Loyola reviewed his work prior to it being published?
[/ QUOTE ]
No i don't actually. He did not put Loyola in that paper and as far as i can tell by "published" they are refering to the fact that he placed it on his blog. I can find no Journal refrence.
Here is one of my papers you can see that both the journal and the institution are refrenced.
Identification of a survival-promoting peptide in medium conditioned by oxidatively stressed cell lines of nervous system origin.Cunningham TJ, Hodge L, Speicher D, Reim D, Tyler-Polsz C, Levitt P, Eagleson K, Kennedy S, Wang Y.
Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy, Allegheny University of the Health Sciences, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19129, USA. J Neurosci. 1998 Sep 15;18(18):7047-60
[ QUOTE ]
I laugh when someone says "lol get over it nerds" in this thread, because they don't get it. Nobody wants to murder this guy, we don't wanna flex our e-pecs and go over there and threaten to beat him up at a gas station in Sac-town, and we aren't afraid of furry things because he griefed people.
Iltat seems more concerned with the fact that he slapped the community in the face. VickiVee seems more concerned that his scientific method was sloppy. Others seem concerned with at least one or the other, a good mixture I believe.
The truth is that this guy wrote a "research paper" with little to no intellectual value concerning online communities ("I griefed people, now I'm gonna downplay it and say that they overreacted."). Worst case scenario, folks, he writes a book that nobody will publish. I mean, look at the article! It's done so shoddy, there was no counterpoints or research on the subject...it's almost as if the news office either sent their least capable reporter or the reporter that they sent could care less about some video game he's probably never heard of and some guy winning a lot at it without cheating but everyone says he is cheating. Though it does remind him of the WoW episode of South Park...he likes that episode. I keep seeing a few images in my head when it comes to this thread:
1) The reporter that was contacted rolling his eyes before, during, and after any conversation he has with anyone about this piece.
2) The reporter's boss laughing about sending the reporter to report this sort of thing. The idea of actually interviewing the doctor makes him giggle, because he thinks it's all dumb too.
3) The doctor reading this thread, both laughing and becoming visibly angry. Think this kid.
4) Boobies. I see boobies no matter what subject is on my brain. Think rickroll.
Allright, that's all I gotta say. It's important to some people, but not because our feelings are hurt or anything. It's more or less because if I stood up and gave a press conference saying that this game sucked and that everyone who plays it is a [censored], you would want to stand up and say "Sir, I disagree."
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I started to read and then noticed you said "boobies" further down and immediately thought of (oYo) and clicked the link.
Well played, sir. Well played.
On a side note, I finally fixed the title of this thread.