Power versus Origin Gaps - Filling the Void?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-07-02 12:50 in Suggestions and Ideas
*sigh* I do get tired of seeing threads about how 'Natural' and such origins aren't represented in power choices or power sets. Natural doesn't just mean that he has no real powers or depends on tech to fight on par with his fellow heroes/villains.
Natural can mean many things, most of which equate to said person training himself to attain such powers (for lack of a better example: Goku and such from Dragon Ball Z) or his powers come naturally to him (Superman) Natural does not just mean you're Batman or Green Arrow.
Use your imagination with some of these things, MA/Regen Scrapper can fly because of a anti-gravity (Rocket Boots) belt he/she found. Or he/she can naturally fly from whatever planet they are originally from (like Supes). Does that make him/her less Natural? No, not at all, just a simple explanation for a simple problem of defining your character.
*deep breath*
Now, would I like to see more sets? Of course, but not for just one origin, cause that does limit the creativity of characters I make. We'll be getting dual pistols for Going Rogue along with Demon Summoning.
In short: Don't have the Developers make sets to help you define and explain your characters powers, that's your job.
@ShoRyu Kusanagi
The Unoffical Anime Junky of Justice
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*sigh* I do get tired of seeing threads about how 'Natural' and such origins aren't represented in power choices or power sets. Natural doesn't just mean that he has no real powers or depends on tech to fight on par with his fellow heroes/villains.
Natural can mean many things, most of which equate to said person training himself to attain such powers (for lack of a better example: Goku and such from Dragon Ball Z) or his powers come naturally to him (Superman) Natural does not just mean you're Batman or Green Arrow.
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I think the issue here is that a lot of people want to make natural or tech characters like batman or green arrow (i.e. no superpowers at all, just skill, training, and/or gadgetry).
Sure, you can always come up with some kind of explanation for how a natural origin character can manipulate fire with their mind, but it's like trying to stick a square peg in a round hole. Sure, you might be able to jam it in there if you try hard enough, but it doesn't really fit.
To the OP. I agree with you on this. I would definitely like to see a new devices or gadgets themed control set. The dominator set would be cool too.
I agree with all of the above posters.
It is your job to make your creations fit the powers that are available via being CREATIVE.
However, I will not turn down any new powersets that are actually cool.
ShoRyu has it right in my book. Natural just means you have the abilities that come naturally to your race or species.
Too many people think that only includes humans. I can think of any number of comic book characters that would fall into the "natural" origin, simply because any member of their race would have the same abilities in the same conditions. I cite Superman II as an example, the 3 Kryptonians that ended up on Earth all had powers similar to Superman himself, that would make him natural origin.
Starfire from the Teen Titans is natural origin, as is Raven (she's a demonic half-breed, anyone with the same genetic mixture would have the same abilities)
On the Marvel side, the members of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard mostly fall into the natural origin. They are comprised of many different species from many different worlds, and a lot of their powers come naturally to them.
I'm not bashing your idea, so don't take it the wrong way. A gadget-type powerset for controllers would be cool, I was just correcting the misapprehension that "Natural" can only mean "Human". In a lot of cases it does mean they are human, but in a lot of other cases it means they are something else entirely.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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ShoRyu has it right in my book. Natural just means you have the abilities that come naturally to your race or species.
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In-game example:
Peacebringer.
The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
More sets? Aces.
Sets that give people a flavor they like for an Origin? Hey whatever floats their boat.
Sets tied to an Origin? Not under any circumstances.
(Khelds are an outlier, so spare me appeals to Khelds).
Afterthought: Grenade based set, on the other hand, will require the playerm at least once per play session, to say "It sure would be nice if we had some GRENADES," in honor of one of the better throwaway gags in the Serenity movie.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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I can explain anything I need to explain as far as origin is concerned. I have a Fire/TA controller who is a stage magician with a doctorate in chemistry. He uses equipment concealed in his clothing to make it appear that he is using magic. He has no powers, he just happens to be a genius with chemicals.
Power by power breakdown of Fire Control for natural origin.
Ring of Fire: You have a device concealed in your sleeve that sprays a flammable gel on the ground around your foe. A liquid that is sprayed out immediately after causes a chemical reaction that ignites it.
Char: You throw a small object filled with a gas or powder that ignites upon exposure to air, it breaks when it hits your enemy, incapacitating them.
Fire Cages: Same as Ring of Fire, on a larger scale.
Smoke: You have a device that creates a smoke cloud out of a viscous substance that does not dissipate immediately. It is activated by impact with a solid object, causing the smoke to form.
Hot Feet: This one is tough to explain. I can't think of anything right now.
Flashfire: You spray a highly combustible gas into the air and ignite it with a spark. Since it ignites so violently the shock of air being displaced and the effect of all the oxygen in the vicinity being consumed combine to stun and disorient anyone caught in the blast.
Cinders: Same idea as Char, but since the effect is more spread out it doesn't have the same physical effect, hence it doesn't deal damage. You just release the powder instead of using an object filled with it.
Bonfire: Combustible chemical poured on the ground and lit with a spark. That simple.
Fire Imps: Another one I can't explain.
But...that's 7 out of 9 powers plausibly explained with a natural origin. The animations don't match up because, like I mentioned above, he is a stage magician who is very practiced at sleight of hand. He uses his knowledge of chemistry to produce effects that could be confused with magic because his enemies can't see the source of the powers.
And Trick Arrow couldn't get much more natural.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Hot Feet: This one is tough to explain. I can't think of anything right now.
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The same as Fire Cages and Ring of Fire only with a slow release fluid and on a constant release down his pant leg from a canister on his back. It's weaker, causing less damage, and only affects the targets feet, slowing them. How does he avoid the damage himself? Obviously, it's his super thick self-made boots that don't react to the stuff at all.
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Fire Imps: Another one I can't explain.
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Either stages hands in burning suits or lab techs that he "accidentally" lit on fire.
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Well, wouldn't using grenades technically still be "science" or "tech?" Depending how far you want to take it, a "Natural Human controller" shouldn't exist, unless you can get enemies to stand still long enough to pile dirt around them or get them to fall into a pit you dug. Alternately, go for some of the Tank or Scrapper sets and slot for stuns.
And if using bits of tech (grenades) is fine for that, why isn't having a device to work on all the other varied effects controllers have?
Not against a "grenade" based set - heck, we have trick arrow as a controller secondary - but if you want to be strict about "natural meaning natural human," you've got a heck of a time coming up with a set that actually matches that.
We could probably do with a super leadership/personality (de)buff set for MMs, Corrupters, Controllers and Defenders.
I think Mind control is pretty close to a 'natural' control set.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Well, wouldn't using grenades technically still be "science" or "tech?" Depending how far you want to take it, a "Natural Human controller" shouldn't exist, unless you can get enemies to stand still long enough to pile dirt around them or get them to fall into a pit you dug. Alternately, go for some of the Tank or Scrapper sets and slot for stuns.
And if using bits of tech (grenades) is fine for that, why isn't having a device to work on all the other varied effects controllers have?
Not against a "grenade" based set - heck, we have trick arrow as a controller secondary - but if you want to be strict about "natural meaning natural human," you've got a heck of a time coming up with a set that actually matches that.
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This. Mind control is probably the strongest current contender if you call it "Cult of Personality" or something like that. But I think of grenades as devices, and therefore sci or tech, not natural - same for Trick Arrow, Archery, AR, Devices and Traps, BTW.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Well, wouldn't using grenades technically still be "science" or "tech?" Depending how far you want to take it, a "Natural Human controller" shouldn't exist, unless you can get enemies to stand still long enough to pile dirt around them or get them to fall into a pit you dug. Alternately, go for some of the Tank or Scrapper sets and slot for stuns.
And if using bits of tech (grenades) is fine for that, why isn't having a device to work on all the other varied effects controllers have?
Not against a "grenade" based set - heck, we have trick arrow as a controller secondary - but if you want to be strict about "natural meaning natural human," you've got a heck of a time coming up with a set that actually matches that.
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This. Mind control is probably the strongest current contender if you call it "Cult of Personality" or something like that. But I think of grenades as devices, and therefore sci or tech, not natural - same for Trick Arrow, Archery, AR, Devices and Traps, BTW.
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What about people with swords, axes, or maces?
Formerly known as Stormy_D
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Well, wouldn't using grenades technically still be "science" or "tech?" Depending how far you want to take it, a "Natural Human controller" shouldn't exist, unless you can get enemies to stand still long enough to pile dirt around them or get them to fall into a pit you dug. Alternately, go for some of the Tank or Scrapper sets and slot for stuns.
And if using bits of tech (grenades) is fine for that, why isn't having a device to work on all the other varied effects controllers have?
Not against a "grenade" based set - heck, we have trick arrow as a controller secondary - but if you want to be strict about "natural meaning natural human," you've got a heck of a time coming up with a set that actually matches that.
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This. Mind control is probably the strongest current contender if you call it "Cult of Personality" or something like that. But I think of grenades as devices, and therefore sci or tech, not natural - same for Trick Arrow, Archery, AR, Devices and Traps, BTW.
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In most comic books a character that uses low tech devices is still considered Natural human as these are devices that anyone (given the right connections and money) can use. It is only the high tech devices that move them into the realm of Tech and it is only the use of chemical substances that are unobtainable by any normal means that moves them into the realm of Science.
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What about people with swords, axes, or maces?
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Those generally require the user to have trained his/her/its body to make effective use of those weapons. The user's skill and training directly determines how effective said weapon is.
A grenade generally just needs accuracy and even that's not required if you use it as a timed bomb rather than throwing it. The user merely directs the power rather than being the direct force behind it.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
Superman is naturally powered by the yellow sun. There.
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Well, wouldn't using grenades technically still be "science" or "tech?" Depending how far you want to take it, a "Natural Human controller" shouldn't exist, unless you can get enemies to stand still long enough to pile dirt around them or get them to fall into a pit you dug. Alternately, go for some of the Tank or Scrapper sets and slot for stuns.
And if using bits of tech (grenades) is fine for that, why isn't having a device to work on all the other varied effects controllers have?
Not against a "grenade" based set - heck, we have trick arrow as a controller secondary - but if you want to be strict about "natural meaning natural human," you've got a heck of a time coming up with a set that actually matches that.
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This. Mind control is probably the strongest current contender if you call it "Cult of Personality" or something like that. But I think of grenades as devices, and therefore sci or tech, not natural - same for Trick Arrow, Archery, AR, Devices and Traps, BTW.
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In most comic books a character that uses low tech devices is still considered Natural human as these are devices that anyone (given the right connections and money) can use. It is only the high tech devices that move them into the realm of Tech and it is only the use of chemical substances that are unobtainable by any normal means that moves them into the realm of Science.
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Perhaps, but the way COH's definitions generally work, the source of your powers = origin. If (going back to the grenade controller) we took away the grenades, could you (or any stand-in member of the general population of your species) still control? As a "natural human" was being brought up, the answer would be no - the source of your abilities is purely in the technology you bring with you.
The general example from comics brought up for this, from a "human" perspective, would be Batman. Yes, he's got tech assistance in the Batplane, batmobile, bat-rope, batarangs, batundies and bat-whatever else, but all those are purely... well, "power pools." He could still walk out, be a detective, and beat the snot out of anyone who attacked.... and so could anyone else (within reason) who just trained.
Hey I know what would be the perfect Human Natural Controller, a grappler. 
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
Aaah! Power Customization with a choice of animations would just fix this.
I hope we will get this one day... soon if possible. 
"Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself." ~Midnight Flux's former boss.
There are usually two sides to every argument but no end.
Everything placed above this line is always IMHO, YMMV and quite certainly not to be taken too seriously....
While I do agree that the MM Primaries are not really Mutant or Science friendly at a glace, I have two examples of how description can be used to overcome this...
The first is someone I saw awhile back who's name entirely escapes me. She was a Thugs/Poison. According to her bio, she was a mutant who was able to mix basic chemicals inside her body and produce various drugs and toxins. The thugs were people subjected to these drugs, who were literally addicted to her. This impressed me, so I spun it around and made my own variation based off the concept...
Sixth Plague, my short-lived Necro/Pain Mutant MM. First, I ignored every attack in Necro, favoring a pure healer/support build. This solved the "dark magic" problem. Plague's mutation was that his blood cells shared similar traits to a virus. This virus had in turn made him rather grotesque, but would not kill him. He infected others, and found that not only were they degenerated as well, but they had also become slaves to his will. Further experimentation with his own blood revealed he could reverse it's effects at a whim, instead allowing it to rebuild flesh. So yeah, those red FX from /Pain...Let's just say you'll need a long shower.
In short: The key to making a power set fit for any Origin is to think waaaaaaay outside the box. Be weird! Be bizzare! People will see your explaination and go "Whoa, that's new!" Next thing you know, you're RPing. Fun for everyone!
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
I have a Fox-spirit that carries a large assault rifle, trip mines, a targeting drone, stealth suit, mobile weapons platform, web grenade, caltrops, and several other ultra high tech devices.
She is, of course, Natural origin.
I've also ret-conned my Elec/Elec Brute to being Natural origin (unfortunately I picked Magic when I first rolled him, I've since modified the concept). He doesn't actually have any special powers, he's just completely psychotic and thinks he does... and of course, as the person playing him, you think you're using Lightning Rod when in reality you're just running over to them and flailing your arms wildly. It would have been even better if I had rolled him as Elec/Dark, then I could have given him a fear-aura to more accurately describe how people react!
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Well, wouldn't using grenades technically still be "science" or "tech?" Depending how far you want to take it, a "Natural Human controller" shouldn't exist, unless you can get enemies to stand still long enough to pile dirt around them or get them to fall into a pit you dug. Alternately, go for some of the Tank or Scrapper sets and slot for stuns.
And if using bits of tech (grenades) is fine for that, why isn't having a device to work on all the other varied effects controllers have?
Not against a "grenade" based set - heck, we have trick arrow as a controller secondary - but if you want to be strict about "natural meaning natural human," you've got a heck of a time coming up with a set that actually matches that.
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This. Mind control is probably the strongest current contender if you call it "Cult of Personality" or something like that. But I think of grenades as devices, and therefore sci or tech, not natural - same for Trick Arrow, Archery, AR, Devices and Traps, BTW.
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In most comic books a character that uses low tech devices is still considered Natural human as these are devices that anyone (given the right connections and money) can use. It is only the high tech devices that move them into the realm of Tech and it is only the use of chemical substances that are unobtainable by any normal means that moves them into the realm of Science.
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Perhaps, but the way COH's definitions generally work, the source of your powers = origin. If (going back to the grenade controller) we took away the grenades, could you (or any stand-in member of the general population of your species) still control? As a "natural human" was being brought up, the answer would be no - the source of your abilities is purely in the technology you bring with you.
The general example from comics brought up for this, from a "human" perspective, would be Batman. Yes, he's got tech assistance in the Batplane, batmobile, bat-rope, batarangs, batundies and bat-whatever else, but all those are purely... well, "power pools." He could still walk out, be a detective, and beat the snot out of anyone who attacked.... and so could anyone else (within reason) who just trained.
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Exactly, but that doesn't mean that a Grenade and gadget using Controller would be helpless without his goodies. Imagine a power as simple as Caltrops. Caltrops can actually be created from a variety of at hand substances and materials. Just sharpen a bunch of jacks you bought at Toys R Us and you got some caltrops. Such a controller could improvise (just like Batman) and be just as viable.
On that same argument, Arachnos are Natural origin. Are you telling me that the weapons they use should define them as Tech? They use some pretty high Tech devices, just nothing so outlandish that it seems unfeasible that a Natural human could utilize it. Could they perform the same job without their gadgets and guns? Probably not. So, should they be defined as Tech origin because of that? Obviously not. They're still Natural.
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While I do agree that the MM Primaries are not really Mutant or Science friendly at a glace, I have two examples of how description can be used to overcome this...
The first is someone I saw awhile back who's name entirely escapes me. She was a Thugs/Poison. According to her bio, she was a mutant who was able to mix basic chemicals inside her body and produce various drugs and toxins. The thugs were people subjected to these drugs, who were literally addicted to her. This impressed me, so I spun it around and made my own variation based off the concept...
Sixth Plague, my short-lived Necro/Pain Mutant MM. First, I ignored every attack in Necro, favoring a pure healer/support build. This solved the "dark magic" problem. Plague's mutation was that his blood cells shared similar traits to a virus. This virus had in turn made him rather grotesque, but would not kill him. He infected others, and found that not only were they degenerated as well, but they had also become slaves to his will. Further experimentation with his own blood revealed he could reverse it's effects at a whim, instead allowing it to rebuild flesh. So yeah, those red FX from /Pain...Let's just say you'll need a long shower.
In short: The key to making a power set fit for any Origin is to think waaaaaaay outside the box. Be weird! Be bizzare! People will see your explaination and go "Whoa, that's new!" Next thing you know, you're RPing. Fun for everyone!
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Nice one.
That reminds me of my Science MM, Trick or Treat: Zombie/Poison. She was formerly an activist during the Vietnam war, later she was captured and made to work for the Army developing Biological Enhancement drugs for the troops. The drugs she developed were wildly successful, but they had a side affect, they caused the soldiers to die.. and then return. The soldiers who were experimented on came back dead. Now they are bound to Trick or Treat (who also took the drug herself, but in much smaller doses), dependent on her to provide them with the drugs they need to remain undead. Her drug also provides her with immortality. Immortality that she will sell... for a price. 
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The point I was trying to make though, is that if you DO want to play a natural-origin human character, none of the current control sets really fit. Every other archetype (kheldians and doms not included) has power choices that can be played as a straight-up vanilla human. No weird race, no superpowers. A watchmen style hero if you will. Controllers and dominators simply don't. And they should.
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Natural Mind Control
Making convencing arguement to have foes attack each other. Confuse
Being really irritating to cause migraines in foes. Dominate
Being really boring to put them to sleep. Mesmerize
And
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...BOO! Terrify
So, control sets can be played as a human natural origin; at least mind control
If it ain't broke set it on fire, then say it was a fault in the design.
Main:50 Force Encephalon Mind/Kinetic Controller, Protector Server
Noticed there are still gaps in certain Archetypes where there is no set that truly matches certain origins. For example, no Controller Primary set is a good fit for Natural or Technology origins either in concept or animation. Here are some suggestions I have to fill in these gaps:
Gap1: Controller Primary for Natural and Technology Origins
Suggestions:
* Grenades powerset:
Web Grenade - ranged immob
M30 grenade - aoe moderate damage with knockback
Web Cocoon - ranged moderate damage hold
Wide Area Web Grenade - aoe immob
Smoke Grenade - aoe debuf(-acc/-perception)
Photon Grenade - aoe minor or moderate damage disorient
Sleep Gas Grenade - aoe sleep
Venom Grenade - aoe moderate damage with deb(-def/-resist)
--> or Poison Gas Trap - aoe hold with deb(-regen)
Blinding Powder - cone confuse/sleep/deb(-acc/-perception)
--> or Oil Slick - aoe chance for knockdown with slow debuf and chance for mod fire dot
Gun Drone or similar pet
Gap2: Dominator Secondary for Natural and Technology orig.
Suggestion:
* Enforcer Assault powerset
Burst
Pummel
Buckshot
Slug
Surveillance
Flamethrower
Caltrops
Sniper rifle
Bayonet
* alternative set suggestion:
Burst
Pummel
Buckshot
Slug
Acid Mortar
Bayonet
Caltrops
Trip mines
Ignite
Mastermind Primary - missing a good Science and Mutation themed pet (zombies are too magical esp. with animations)
Perhaps mutated creatures or altered beasts:
Beast Mastery: (melee pets with ranged attack of charge like shield charge)
Tranq dart or beanbag (Dam adjusted to MM similar to Ninja Snapshot but with weak disorient)
Wildcats
Throwing Knives or burst (Dam adjusted to MM - similar to Robot PR Burst no KB but with weak -def)
Enhance Beast
Spin or Typhoon's edge or flamethrower (damage adjusted to MM)
Wolves
[Animal] Attunement (pet heal, mez prot, +recharge, +speed) like repair but weaker heal plus minor buffs
-> or Bat Swarm (summon multiple weak pets like Gang Warfare, only bats instead of people carrying bats)
Bear (claws version of Bruiser)
Alter Beast
So many suggestions for Mastermind primaries it would be nice to see a new one in next issue. Could even forsee Rularu pets like Wisps, Overseers and Brutes.
Gap3: Travel powers for Natural and Technology
This is not as strong a case since one could argue that existing sets could fall into the category but not with present animations. A new travel set based on physical (visual) device would be most welcome, particularly something like hoverbikes, hoverboards (hovering devices should be much easier to implement than wheeled), time travel/time machine (reaching?)
Gameplay in CoH is very stale and despite new content (the play is the same, only the actors have changed...) so new powersets help mix things up and keep it fresh. I feel powerset proliferation still left a few gaps. Anyone else?