Just a thought.. FIX THE CURRENT BUGS before I15

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<snip>Even if he DID learn more about programs, went and took classes and maybe even earned a degree, he would come home and log into the same bug ridden coh. How exactly does learning about programs alleviate the situation. He is paying THEM to do the programming so he can explore the world they have provided...</snip>

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I'm a few credits away from having my 1337 coder degree, and I make a living as a codemonkey. My mental response to the title of the thread was "ffs, I hate customers."

On the one hand, programmers as professionals are bizarrely tolerant of screw ups (aka bugs) than other professions. On the other hand complete debugging gets expotentially difficult as the program increases in complexity. I'd argue that writing a bug free video game of this complexity in finite time is impossible.

I'm not going to say that this makes bugs acceptable. However, if you're playing coh after a long day of coding, you'd empathize with the devs.

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pohsyb is one of the programmers, but I think he is the only one currently with a redname

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Pretty sure both Dark Watcher and Ghost Widow as well. Didn't GW go back and redocument the entire Taunt code for Castle? That must have been a pain in the [censored]. I've always wondered if she did it because she believed him that the documentation was wrong or she just wanted him to shut up about how Taunt wasn't working the way he expected it to.

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"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle

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pohsyb is one of the programmers, but I think he is the only one currently with a redname

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Pretty sure both Dark Watcher and Ghost Widow as well. Didn't GW go back and redocument the entire Taunt code for Castle? That must have been a pain in the [censored]. I've always wondered if she did it because she believed him that the documentation was wrong or she just wanted him to shut up about how Taunt wasn't working the way he expected it to.

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IIRC they were going through it for something else and found out it wasn't working the way the documentation said it was, which came as a surprise to them both.

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Dark Watcher and Ghost Widow. Yep, both programming types per the wiki.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

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And your point? Like you have no bugs? Please. Thanks for your "trolling" of the forums. : D

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My point is

Standard Code Rant

If you can't understand anything about programs, how they work, how they're coded, and how complicated even the most simple program really is, then your demands that "all bugs must be fixed NAO" can not be taken seriously.

Therefor, I dismiss it.

Discussion ended.

[/ QUOTE ] Don't be dumb. He doesn't need to know a damn thing about programming to want bugs fixed.

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And your point? Like you have no bugs? Please. Thanks for your "trolling" of the forums. : D

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My point is

Standard Code Rant

If you can't understand anything about programs, how they work, how they're coded, and how complicated even the most simple program really is, then your demands that "all bugs must be fixed NAO" can not be taken seriously.

Therefor, I dismiss it.

Discussion ended.

[/ QUOTE ] Don't be dumb. He doesn't need to know a damn thing about programming to want bugs fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]"Wanting bugs fixed" is hardly what he was doing. He was ranting, that's it.

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And your point? Like you have no bugs? Please. Thanks for your "trolling" of the forums. : D

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My point is

Standard Code Rant

If you can't understand anything about programs, how they work, how they're coded, and how complicated even the most simple program really is, then your demands that "all bugs must be fixed NAO" can not be taken seriously.

Therefor, I dismiss it.

Discussion ended.

[/ QUOTE ] Don't be dumb. He doesn't need to know a damn thing about programming to want bugs fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]"Wanting bugs fixed" is hardly what he was doing. He was ranting, that's it.

[/ QUOTE ] Either way, the OP's programming knowledge isn't relevant in any way.

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And your point? Like you have no bugs? Please. Thanks for your "trolling" of the forums. : D

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is

Standard Code Rant

If you can't understand anything about programs, how they work, how they're coded, and how complicated even the most simple program really is, then your demands that "all bugs must be fixed NAO" can not be taken seriously.

Therefor, I dismiss it.

Discussion ended.

[/ QUOTE ] Don't be dumb. He doesn't need to know a damn thing about programming to want bugs fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]"Wanting bugs fixed" is hardly what he was doing. He was ranting, that's it.

[/ QUOTE ] Either way, the OP's programming knowledge isn't relevant in any way.

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True, but it'd help understand why it's not feasible (possible, yes - feasible? Most likely not) to have a bug-free game, or how fixing stuff isn't as easy as it looks on the outside.

I don't know a lot about building a house, but what I know about both physics, architecture, and construction both tell me that it's damn hard to do it (provided you can get the paperwork to start the project in the first place), and not have at least one or two problems crop up at some point.

EDIT: And while it could have been pointed out better (Oh, the forums we post in!), the OP still hasn't exactly been the most level-headed, polite, or understanding person about it when it was brought up. (I was tempted to use the term 'ignorant little twerp' somewhere in there, but found it contrary to my goal here and a little more rude then I felt like being. However, not quite rude or contrary enough not to go on record as being considered.)

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True, but it'd help understand why it's not feasible (possible, yes - feasible? Most likely not) to have a bug-free game, or how fixing stuff isn't as easy as it looks on the outside.


[/ QUOTE ] I agree, a bug free game just isn't possible. But if a bug is irritating enough, people should complain about it until it gets fixed. How difficult it is shouldn't really be a factor. I think power customization is a good example of this. Assuming we are getting this in i16, that is a lot of work that had to be done and is still being done to get it to work. If people didn't keep wanting this and keep asking for it does anybody think we would have got it anyways? After all, why do all that work if there isn't demand for it?

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I don't know a lot about building a house, but what I know about both physics, architecture, and construction both tell me that it's damn hard to do it (provided you can get the paperwork to start the project in the first place), and not have at least one or two problems crop up at some point.

[/ QUOTE ] True, but as a renter you expect the landlord to fix major problems when they come up, regardless of how difficult or expensive it is. And if you are having a house built for you, you would expect the builder to fix and handle what other problems come up. Regardless of how difficult it would be for them.

edit:

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EDIT: And while it could have been pointed out better (Oh, the forums we post in!), the OP still hasn't exactly been the most level-headed, polite, or understanding person about it when it was brought up. (I was tempted to use the term 'ignorant little twerp' somewhere in there, but found it contrary to my goal here and a little more rude then I felt like being. However, not quite rude or contrary enough not to go on record as being considered.)

[/ QUOTE ] I couldn't agree more.

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I'm not going to say that this makes bugs acceptable. However, if you're playing coh after a long day of coding, you'd empathize with the devs.

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Yeah I wasnt trying to discredit anyone, I was doing the opposite. Obviously to eradicate all bugs from the game would be unthinkably difficult, but I dont think anyone was asking for that.

I took it as a balancing issue. I would prefer they handle *some* bugs before pushing the new issue out to live, opening up the door for more bugs to appear. Preventing a pileup, you know? Pretty simple request, standard personal opinion.

I think people have to remember (when posting) that when someone opens a thread making a request, suggestion, plea, etc. that its just that and nothing more. It does not mean thats how the game is going to be unless you show complete hatred towards the idea, its creator, and the keyboard it was all typed on.
I used to do it all the time...probably still will sometimes... out of boredom Im guessing. I dont know, whatever

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But if a bug is irritating enough, people should complain about it until it gets fixed. How difficult it is shouldn't really be a factor. I think power customization is a good example of this. Assuming we are getting this in i16, that is a lot of work that had to be done and is still being done to get it to work. If people didn't keep wanting this and keep asking for it does anybody think we would have got it anyways? After all, why do all that work if there isn't demand for it?

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Other hero themed games are including power customization and are scheduled for release this year.

Judging by what BaBs has said about implementing power customization, the biggest obstacle was that it's obnoxiously time consuming which translates to being a feature they have to throw a lot of money at.

WONDER TWIN POWERS ACTIVATE
FORM OF: I16

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At launch the game had 480 000 lines of code Source

The files are at least 2.5 times larger than they were then. Scaling that appropriately, means a million lines of code is not actually a bad estimate

99.99% accuracy for major things should be good enough for anyone right ?

At that rate it is over 100 major things wrong in a million lines of code.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

Did you consult Arcanaville about those numbers Catwhoorg?

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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

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Ok I feel better. So should I15 be released without these things being fixed or No? What are your thoughts?

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Before side-switching happens, I'd love to have one major issue that was ONLY bug fixes. Major bugs, minor bugs, as many as possible.

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That isn't going to happen, and I would lobby against such a thing vehemently. Besides, waaaaay too many people who don't touch programming would be sitting on their hands for months.

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EDIT: And while it could have been pointed out better (Oh, the forums we post in!), the OP still hasn't exactly been the most level-headed, polite, or understanding person about it when it was brought up. (I was tempted to use the term 'ignorant little twerp' somewhere in there, but found it contrary to my goal here and a little more rude then I felt like being. However, not quite rude or contrary enough not to go on record as being considered.)

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You actually did use "ignorant little twerp". You are no better. Far from it as it appears.

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Player on Infinity server
Overlord of "The Fiend Army"
39 Level 50 Toons

Hmm. A rallying cry to fix a list of demands, before we get another issue?
How very . . . odd.


Do you act like this elsewhere in life?

I am sure that none of us are 100% happy with every rule or procedure at our workplace.
Have you started a "Let's fix all the procedures before we get another Yearly Bonus" petition?
How is that going?

Try that one at work, and see if your co-workers respond any better than we have here.

Let us know how that works for you.

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Did you consult Arcanaville about those numbers Catwhoorg?

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Sadly, no. I have little doubt she could reel off much better estimates.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

Been around here long? Bugs are unfortunately a fact of life and while they TRY fixing them half the time fixing one only leads to another. Your rant has been going on for as long as I have been playing and starting another thread about it will accomplish nothing.

Issue 15 and then 16 will release when ready and any bugs they can fix before that will be but asking them to fix every bug anyone experiences prior to that is not going to happen. We have no idea what the actual total amount of staff they have on hand at NC Soft is or how many are assigned to what tasks. For all you or I know 2 or 3 people may be doing absolutely nothing day in and day out but working to fix bugs while a completely different team is working on the release. We are still getting maintenance shut downs on servers twice a week so someone has to be doing that and thats when bug patches are loaded.

Programing knowledge aside.. since I admit to having none ... we are talking anout a company that produces games not a huge conglomerate with hundreds of thousands of employees. A certain number of their smaller staff is detailed to customer support including support to the forum and some of those may have only limited or even no programing abilities. Others are involved in financial issues, ect. To turn any profit at all I am sure the staffing is kept at a minimum so for all we know a handful of actual employees may be all that are working on the issue releases. Is COH buggy? laggy? sure but one post here demanding all of them are fixed ASAP doesn't do a thing except frustrate you more when it isn't met with a quick response.

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�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon

Not gonna happen. I'll explain why with my limited knowledge on the subject.

A bug can be caused by something completely unrelated to what the bug is affecting. An example:

Say you're experiencing a bug where your wings only flap while hovering and not when flying. Now you'd think that would have something to do with the recent hover/fly minimum speed buffs.

But, when they look, they see nothing unusual there. So, they have to look somewhere else to find it. Finally after a month of searching they discover that a line of code put in to alter the MM pet Bruiser's Hand Clap caused the hover/fly wings bug.

So, they go ahead and fix that now that they know what it is. Unfortunately, the line of code they wrote to fix THAT bug, caused a bug in the behavior of an EB in a 4 year old mission.

Short answer: Every single line of code in this game is intertwined with every other line of code. Fixing one bug, more often than not, causes another bug to pop up somewhere else.

Your suggestion of spending an issue doing nothing but fixing bugs would have the real-world result of the developers never doing anything else to the game, ever again. Which I, and presumably a lot of other people, do not want.

So, you can accept that they ARE working to fix bugs while they do other stuff as well, or you can continue to be pissy because they aren't dropping everything else to fix all the bugs, and then all the bugs they created when they fixed them, and then all the bugs they created when they fixed THEM, and so on and so forth.

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Deleted by MunkiLord because he decided he doesn't care. Also, posting in the third person makes him cool.

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Clouded agrees.

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can i put in a NO U post?

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Zube thinks it's lame.

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"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter

29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform

Lies.

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