Dominator Buff/Nerf in i15

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I'm popping less attacks, have more end drain, and killing less efficient as I was before. Popping less attacks but I have just as much to more end drain and it is keeping my blue bar empty, which keeps me popping less attacks, which from there holds me back on killing effectively.

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Let's do a comparison. Let's look at a set that was changed a lot. Let's say... Energy Assault. Before you had:

Power Bolt: 5.2 cost, 1.0 damage scale
Bone Smasher: 8.528 cost, 1.64 damage scale
Power Push: 8.528 cost, 0.4 damage scale
Power Blast: 6.864 cost, 1.32 damage scale
Whirling Hands: 13 cost, 1.0 damage scale
Total Focus: 18.511999 cost, 3.56 damage scale
Sniper Blast: 14.352 cost, 2.76 damage scale
Power Burst: 10.4 cost, 2.12 damage scale

Total: 92.855999 cost, 13.8 scale damage

Now you have:

Power Bolt: 6.86 cost, 1.32 scale damage
Bone Smasher: 10.2 cost, 1.96 scale damage
Power Push: 8.528 cost, 1.64 scale damage
Power Blast: 10.2 cost, 1.96 scale damage
Whirling Hands: 18.51 cost, 1.1 scale damage
Total Focus: 20.18 cost, 3.88 scale damage
Sniper Blast: 18.51 cost, 3.56 scale damage
Power Burst: 13.5 cost, 2.6 scale damage

Total: 106.488 cost, 18.02 scale damage

~92.86 endurance to ~106.49 endurance is an increase of a little under 15%. 13.80 scale damage to 18.02 scale damage is an increase of a little over 30%. That's based JUST on the damage scale changes to the powersets themselves and IGNORES the changes to Dominator scale damage, which were in the neighbourhood of a 50% increase. For a more in-depth study, let's look at the numbers separately.

Old Energy Assault has:

Ranged: 37.856 cost, 7.6 scale damage
Melee: 40.039999 cost, 6.2 scale damage

At level 50, the current Dominator ranged damage mod is -36.147, so that's a sum total of -274.7172 ranged damage for 37.856 endurance. At level 50, the current Dominator melee damage mod is -41.708, so that's a sum total of -258,5896 ranged damage for ~40.039 endurance, or a sum total of -533.3068 damage for ~92.86 endurance. With enhancements - call it 94.993%, or 3 even level SOs for good measure - that's ~-1039,91.

New Energy Assault has:

Ranged: 57.598 cost, 11.08 scale damage
Melee: 48,89 cost, 6,94 scale damage

Damage mods aren't as straightforward. Based off AT mods, damage mods are calculated as BaseDmg - [ BaseDmg * LvlMod * ( 1 - AT_Mod ) ]. At level 50, LvlMod is 1.0 and BaseDmg is -55.6102. So at a ranged damage mod of 0.95, Dominator new ranged damage at 50 would be:

-55.6102 - (-55.6102(1-0.95)) = -55.6102 - (-55.6102*0.05) = -55.6102 + 2.78051 = -52.82969

Dominator new melee damage at 50 would be -55.6102 - (-55.6102*(1-1.05)) = -55.6102 -(-55.6102*(-0.05)) = -55.6102 - 2.78051 = -58.39071

With these mods, new Dominator total ranged damage at 50 is -585.3529652 and new Dominator total melee damage at 50 is -405.2315274, or a total of -990.5844926 unenhanced. Enhanced at the same level as above - 94.993% - that's a total of ~-1931,57.

Let me lay down the numbers for you:

Old Dominators:
92.86 cost to -1039,91 damage

New Dominators:
106.49 cost to -1931,57 damage

A cursory examination of this shows that for a less than 15% increase in cost, damage has increased by 85%. Even allowing for endurance wasted to overkill, there is still no way old Dominatiors were more efficient.

BUT WAIT! I left out Domination! Surely old permadom Dominators were more efficient than new Dominators whose Domination doesn't give a damage buff at all. Well, let's have a look see.

New Dominator damage remains unchanged at -1931,57. For old Dominator damage under the effects of Domination (a 75% damage buff for 90 seconds), we'll have to go back to unenhanced damage, which was -533.3068. We need to improve that by the sum of enhancements, which is 94.993%, added together with the damage buff from Domination, which is 75%, for a total of 169.993%. Total damage then becomes ~-1439,90. Hmm... Is it me, or is that somewhat less than (as an absolute value) than -1931,57? Granted, not by as much, but still by a little over 34%. So that's a 15% endurance cost increase for a 34% damage increase over PERMADOM, and an 85% damage increase over plain old Dominators. That is NOT less efficient.

I did not take recharge time into consideration for the simple fact that, outside of simple burst damage, it doesn't really play a factor in efficiency. It DOES play a role in determining how FAST you go through your endurance, but does not affect how WELL you use it. Yes, new Dominators expend endurance faster. Kind of, if you let rip with all of your powers. However, they also kill faster. But on a pure comparison of damage dealt to endurance expended doing so, new Dominators are actually significantly more efficient than old PermaDoms, and SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient than NonPermaDoms at zero cost of investment.

I fail to see how that's worse.

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Golly, I'm so out of the loop! I should attend the meetings.

[/ QUOTE ]That's what you get for missing the Weekly Team Status Progress Update Meeting

We had doughnut holes! And bagels! D:

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

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Golly, I'm so out of the loop! I should attend the meetings.

[/ QUOTE ]That's what you get for missing the Weekly Team Status Progress Update Meeting

We had doughnut holes! And bagels! D:

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, Fleeting - isn't it your turn to bring those next week?

If so, Timbits from Tim Horton's, please, none of those crappy grocery store doughnut holes. Thanks.

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Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."

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I'm popping less attacks, have more end drain, and killing less efficient as I was before. Popping less attacks but I have just as much to more end drain and it is keeping my blue bar empty, which keeps me popping less attacks, which from there holds me back on killing effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's do a comparison. Let's look at a set that was changed a lot. Let's say... Energy Assault. Before you had:

Power Bolt: 5.2 cost, 1.0 damage scale
Bone Smasher: 8.528 cost, 1.64 damage scale
Power Push: 8.528 cost, 0.4 damage scale
Power Blast: 6.864 cost, 1.32 damage scale
Whirling Hands: 13 cost, 1.0 damage scale
Total Focus: 18.511999 cost, 3.56 damage scale
Sniper Blast: 14.352 cost, 2.76 damage scale
Power Burst: 10.4 cost, 2.12 damage scale

Total: 92.855999 cost, 13.8 scale damage

Now you have:

Power Bolt: 6.86 cost, 1.32 scale damage
Bone Smasher: 10.2 cost, 1.96 scale damage
Power Push: 8.528 cost, 1.64 scale damage
Power Blast: 10.2 cost, 1.96 scale damage
Whirling Hands: 18.51 cost, 1.1 scale damage
Total Focus: 20.18 cost, 3.88 scale damage
Sniper Blast: 18.51 cost, 3.56 scale damage
Power Burst: 13.5 cost, 2.6 scale damage

Total: 106.488 cost, 18.02 scale damage

~92.86 endurance to ~106.49 endurance is an increase of a little under 15%. 13.80 scale damage to 18.02 scale damage is an increase of a little over 30%. That's based JUST on the damage scale changes to the powersets themselves and IGNORES the changes to Dominator scale damage, which were in the neighbourhood of a 50% increase. For a more in-depth study, let's look at the numbers separately.

Old Energy Assault has:

Ranged: 37.856 cost, 7.6 scale damage
Melee: 40.039999 cost, 6.2 scale damage

At level 50, the current Dominator ranged damage mod is -36.147, so that's a sum total of -274.7172 ranged damage for 37.856 endurance. At level 50, the current Dominator melee damage mod is -41.708, so that's a sum total of -258,5896 ranged damage for ~40.039 endurance, or a sum total of -533.3068 damage for ~92.86 endurance. With enhancements - call it 94.993%, or 3 even level SOs for good measure - that's ~-1039,91.

New Energy Assault has:

Ranged: 57.598 cost, 11.08 scale damage
Melee: 48,89 cost, 6,94 scale damage

Damage mods aren't as straightforward. Based off AT mods, damage mods are calculated as BaseDmg - [ BaseDmg * LvlMod * ( 1 - AT_Mod ) ]. At level 50, LvlMod is 1.0 and BaseDmg is -55.6102. So at a ranged damage mod of 0.95, Dominator new ranged damage at 50 would be:

-55.6102 - (-55.6102(1-0.95)) = -55.6102 - (-55.6102*0.05) = -55.6102 + 2.78051 = -52.82969

Dominator new melee damage at 50 would be -55.6102 - (-55.6102*(1-1.05)) = -55.6102 -(-55.6102*(-0.05)) = -55.6102 - 2.78051 = -58.39071

With these mods, new Dominator total ranged damage at 50 is -585.3529652 and new Dominator total melee damage at 50 is -405.2315274, or a total of -990.5844926 unenhanced. Enhanced at the same level as above - 94.993% - that's a total of ~-1931,57.

Let me lay down the numbers for you:

Old Dominators:
92.86 cost to -1039,91 damage

New Dominators:
106.49 cost to -1931,57 damage

A cursory examination of this shows that for a less than 15% increase in cost, damage has increased by 85%. Even allowing for endurance wasted to overkill, there is still no way old Dominatiors were more efficient.

BUT WAIT! I left out Domination! Surely old permadom Dominators were more efficient than new Dominators whose Domination doesn't give a damage buff at all. Well, let's have a look see.

New Dominator damage remains unchanged at -1931,57. For old Dominator damage under the effects of Domination (a 75% damage buff for 90 seconds), we'll have to go back to unenhanced damage, which was -533.3068. We need to improve that by the sum of enhancements, which is 94.993%, added together with the damage buff from Domination, which is 75%, for a total of 169.993%. Total damage then becomes ~-1439,90. Hmm... Is it me, or is that somewhat less than (as an absolute value) than -1931,57? Granted, not by as much, but still by a little over 34%. So that's a 15% endurance cost increase for a 34% damage increase over PERMADOM, and an 85% damage increase over plain old Dominators. That is NOT less efficient.

I did not take recharge time into consideration for the simple fact that, outside of simple burst damage, it doesn't really play a factor in efficiency. It DOES play a role in determining how FAST you go through your endurance, but does not affect how WELL you use it. Yes, new Dominators expend endurance faster. Kind of, if you let rip with all of your powers. However, they also kill faster. But on a pure comparison of damage dealt to endurance expended doing so, new Dominators are actually significantly more efficient than old PermaDoms, and SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient than NonPermaDoms at zero cost of investment.

I fail to see how that's worse.

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Just from the first sentence it is obvious you weren't reading my posts, so I didn't bother reading yours. I never said energy assault anywhere. Also Energy Assault was one of the lightest hit.

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To throw some math into the endurance issue... the total net change in Endurance for powers affected was ~30% in the upward direction.

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*sardonic laugh* yeah, that's... reasonable.... Pfffffffbbbbtttt

If they implement this, the Doms are shelved. 110% guarantee. I doubt the developers care much about my Dominators, but they ought to care about how Doms overall will become even rarer than they are now.... and they're pretty damn rare right now.

Man, nothing is safe these days.

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While I have not messed with my Earth/Elec yet on test, I can tell you right now I will consider my Mind/Psi a playable character again.

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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

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Just from the first sentence it is obvious you weren't reading my posts, so I didn't bother reading yours. I never said energy assault anywhere. Also Energy Assault was one of the lightest hit.

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I wasn't reading your "posts." I read your post - singular. It did not mention a powerset. And if you're going to talk about "lightest hit," then I'm going to run a guess and ask "Psychic Shockwave?"

I picked Energy Assault because every power in it was changed, save for Power Boost.

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To my eyes, what counts the most is that Dominators are now awesome without Domination. I can't say what effect the changes will have on permadom Dominators, but then the stated aim of the changes was to improve regular-play Dominatiors without affecting permadom Dominators too much. Which kind is yours?

[/ QUOTE ] I would think perma dom would have an easier time adjusting - with the end fill it gives you every X seconds.. (90?)

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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

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I love my BS scrapper, but if there is one thing that drives me crazy about her, it's the wait for my powers to recharge during a fight.

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Someone made the notice that ranged controls now tend to do slightly less damage than a same-slotted same-control from a controller.

A controller benefiting from containment, that is.

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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

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To my eyes, what counts the most is that Dominators are now awesome without Domination. I can't say what effect the changes will have on permadom Dominators, but then the stated aim of the changes was to improve regular-play Dominatiors without affecting permadom Dominators too much. Which kind is yours?

[/ QUOTE ] I would think perma dom would have an easier time adjusting - with the end fill it gives you every X seconds.. (90?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Right! That I forgot to account for. Practically speaking, one domination per 90 seconds (ideally) means a net recovery increase of around of over a unit of endurance per second, which is significant. However, between PermaDoms now and PermaDoms later, that should remain constant and would present a decrease only if people decide to abandon PermaDom and shuffle their power and slotting choices around. I can't say whether people will or will not do that, but Castle did say he aimed to have as small an impact on PermaDoms as he could manage, and that appears to fit the bill.

Like always, it seems it's not "the changes" bothering people but one specific change to one specific power that gets applied to "the changes" as though it were the only thing that mattered.

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Like always, it seems it's not "the changes" bothering people but one specific change to one specific power that gets applied to "the changes" as though it were the only thing that mattered.

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I had this thought about people complaining that changing PSW has made the Psi Assualt set worhtless since that was the only worthwhile power taking.

I can just imagine someone complaining that their car which was so not working right it was probably worth hundreds in fines to drive it (but had a KILLER stereo) that after the shop fixed all it's issues, ended up turning down how loud the speakers can go because to fix the rest of the car, they had to fix the messed up wiring

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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

In short, there have been two changes. The change to Domination has raised the damage of all Dominators across the board, even those who have lost damage elsewhere, resulting in a net gain for even those hardest hit. This change is certainly a buff, and if there had been no other changes to anything, I'm pretty sure it would be positively recieved.

The other change is that the Dominator Secondaries have been "normalized" between the sets that used Tanker versions of melee attacks, like Energy Assault, and those that used the Blaster version, like Electric. The Blaster melee attacks, since they are designed for an Archetype that needs to move into melee fast, make a massive front loaded strike, and get out, have extremely high recharges and End cost, but high damage. The Tanker versions, since they are designed for an Archetype that stays in melee, have much lower End cost and Recharge, but do less damage per strike.

The devs have evened out the difference, so Dominators neither have really long recharges on their attacks, nor do they have low damage per hit. In the case of Energy, this has made a major improvement to the set. Most of Energy's ranged attacks have been given the same treatment too, meaning they now do more damage than Blaster attacks (adjusted for the lower damage mod Dominators have, of course) but don't recharge as often. This also means Doms are able to pump more Endurance through their attacks, since they have higher DPA, thus using up more Endurance.

Electric, on the other hand, got the exact opposite. It is now more End efficient and has much more complete attack chains, but it does less damage. I haven't heard anyone really complain about this, although it is often brought up that Thunder Strike was reduced in damage.

Psi, well, we knew what would happen to Psi. It has pretty much been given the Energy treatment in being given more damage. The thing is, all this complaint about Energy and Psi using more Endurance is because they are doing more damage. More damage than even the Domination buff. Maybe the ranged attacks need to be tuned back down, as they're really unrelated to where Dominators sit between Blasters and Tankers (Or Brutes) but the extra Endurance was not just tacked on for nothing. Someone said you use Endurance like Stone Melee, well, that's because you do damage like Stone Melee.

Ice and Thorns did not recieve drastic changes, so most of that follows the changes due to the Domination boost. That leaves Fire, which looks like it would be a good change, but Flares and Combustion were given much higher recharge and End cost than they had before, possibly because the devs forgot to allow for the Fire DoT effect. I suspect that Fire may get some more tweaks, and when it does, it will come out to be as popular as Energy, if not better.

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The thing is, all this complaint about Energy and Psi using more Endurance is because they are doing more damage.

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They're doing enough damage to warrant a 30-40% increase in END usage?!!! We're doing the damage of Stone Melee?! I missed that during my experiment on test, I guess...! This is the problem, and I call it unacceptable!

Plus the mere idea of having to try to get PermaDom in place makes my head hurt... *looks at topmost storage shelf....*

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The thing is, all this complaint about Energy and Psi using more Endurance is because they are doing more damage.

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They're doing enough damage to warrant a 30-40% increase in END usage?!!! We're doing the damage of Stone Melee?! I missed that during my experiment on test, I guess...! This is the problem, and I call it unacceptable!

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How do you figure that 30-40% increase in endurance usage? For Energy, damage per endurance remains the same for most powers (Whirling Hands got a range increase, rather than a damage boost) and I'm not seeing an increase of 30-40% to begin with. The increase, as I pointed out before, is a little under 15% total, while the damage increase is a little over 30% total if you compare to Live Permadom, or up to 85% if you compare to Live standard. So yes, enough damage to merit the change in endurance. Very much so.

Of course, if you're talking about Psychic Assault, that set may not have been as improved (or improved at all, I haven't looked) as the others, but it's pretty clear that it's very much a special case. As mentioned, not all sets were altered, but aside from Psi, those touched were improved even before we consider the base damage increase.

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The thing is, all this complaint about Energy and Psi using more Endurance is because they are doing more damage.

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They're doing enough damage to warrant a 30-40% increase in END usage?!!! We're doing the damage of Stone Melee?! I missed that during my experiment on test, I guess...! This is the problem, and I call it unacceptable!

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure that 30-40% increase in endurance usage? For Energy, damage per endurance remains the same for most powers (Whirling Hands got a range increase, rather than a damage boost) and I'm not seeing an increase of 30-40% to begin with. The increase, as I pointed out before, is a little under 15% total, while the damage increase is a little over 30% total if you compare to Live Permadom, or up to 85% if you compare to Live standard. So yes, enough damage to merit the change in endurance. Very much so.

Of course, if you're talking about Psychic Assault, that set may not have been as improved (or improved at all, I haven't looked) as the others, but it's pretty clear that it's very much a special case. As mentioned, not all sets were altered, but aside from Psi, those touched were improved even before we consider the base damage increase.

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My understanding is that /energy [on test] is using 30% more END and that /psi has had its END usage upped 40%, due to this "buff." This correlates with what I've seen on my /energy on Test; the END problems are just horrible now.

I don't play /psi so I cannot speak from experience there. I am not and never have been "permadom." I don't think that requiring PermaDom to overcome these changes is either right nor fair.

I also call a 30% increase a pretty damn punitive change - but that's just me.

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I also call a 30% increase a pretty damn punitive change - but that's just me.

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You missed the bit where that was 30% increase over a permadom.

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My understanding is that /energy [on test] is using 30% more END and that /psi has had its END usage upped 40%, due to this "buff." This correlates with what I've seen on my /energy on Test; the END problems are just horrible now.

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That truly depends on what you're trying to do with the sets. The "cost" you pay for the damage you do has actually gone down, with endurance cost for Energy Assault going up by 15%, but damage going up by either 30% or 85%, depending on whether you compare to permadom or regular play. However, because attacks have been slowed down, that means you can stick more things in your attack chain and that WILL cost you more, bit it will also bring in more damage faster.

If you're looking at endurance cost per second, then by far the biggest factor in that is playstyle and how people choose to adapt. Damage per endurance cost, however, has actually gone up, meaning you do a LOT more damage for a LITTLE more endurance, only now you can also do more still.

Running the EPS calculations should be fairly simple, though it would also be a massive pain in the [censored]. If you're really interested, I can run them for you when I get a couple of hours of free time, but I'd really rather not commit to that for no reason. It would probably also be unreliable, as attack chains and filler powers also factor into this, and those aren't very easily predictable.

Let me conclude this with a simple observation: Power cost and recharge increased along with the increase in damage. The balance of the new powers is the same as the balance of the old power - ~0.192 scale damage per unit of endurance, so each attack costs no more and no less for what it does on Live, they all just come in bigger chunks. You do, however, have an AT base damage increase which gives you extra damage at no added cost, which actually makes things more efficient at the end of the day than they were before, in or out of Domination.

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I also call a 30% increase a pretty damn punitive change - but that's just me.

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You missed the bit where that was 30% increase over a permadom.

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A 30% increase in what exactly, over PermaDom?

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This thread is making me glad I ignore all this stuff until it actually goes to live.

=D

I'll see how my fire/plant plays then.

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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

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I also call a 30% increase a pretty damn punitive change - but that's just me.

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You missed the bit where that was 30% increase over a permadom.

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A 30% increase in what exactly, over PermaDom?

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The increase, as I pointed out before, is a little under 15% total, while the damage increase is a little over 30% total if you compare to Live Permadom, or up to 85% if you compare to Live standard. So yes, enough damage to merit the change in endurance. Very much so.

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Damage.

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Damage, yes. Damage increased more than cost did.

But thinking about it overnight, that doesn't paint the whole picture. Damage and cost increases count only if you do on Test EXACTLY what you do on Live. To give a somewhat uneducated example, if on Live you used an attack chain of Power Bolt -> Bone Smasher -> Power Bolt -> Power Blast -> repeat, for the cost and damage increases to be what I predicted, you would have to do the same on Test. But because these powers were slowed down, on Test such an attack chain would have significant gaps, but it WOULD have better efficiency than on Live.

But it has gaps. Gaps in which you can use more attacks, or more control, or more tempermanent powers. Knowing what the playerbase considers efficient and seeing how people describe their new behaviour, it seems that few tolerate waiting these gaps out and instead fill them in either with the other attacks they didn't have the opportunity to use before, or with more control powers. THIS causes a net increase in endurance, and without calculating it, I would wager it WOULD offset the increase in damage against Permadom. Perhaps even the increase in damage overall. But this is also the part that is in the players' hands - people are doing more, and this is naturally costing them more. "Per damage" metrics remain the same, but "per second" metrics tank, causing people to run out faster than they can recover, disrupting the "perpetual motion" many espouse.

My advice, if that were ever worth much, would be to either slow down if you want to maintain close to the old efficiency, or find newer ways to mitigate the cost. Dominators on Test have been given the same opportunity as Masterminds - spam your powers for amazing feats in return for amazing cost. A Mastermind can resummon and re-upgrade all henchmen within 5-10 seconds, but the unenhanced cost of this is MORE than his entire endurance bar. Dominators have much the same opportunity now - let rip if you want, but mind the cost.

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Is Grav/En viable yet?

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Is Grav/En viable yet?

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My experience with the combination is very limited, but I can say one thing with utmost certainty - the low levels are NOT a pain to solo with that combination on Test. They're actually pretty enjoyable.

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Is Grav/En viable yet?

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My experience with the combination is very limited, but I can say one thing with utmost certainty - the low levels are NOT a pain to solo with that combination on Test. They're actually pretty enjoyable.

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Lift got an adjustement, and Energy is generally accepted to be worlds better on Test now.

Net result? It's a lot more viable then it used to be, that's for sure.

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"Dominator Buff/Nerf in i15"

Buff?

I play a Plants/Mind Dominator. I have no buff. In fact, from the looks of things, as soon as this goes live I will become fairly useless.

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"Dominator Buff/Nerf in i15"

Buff?

I play a Plants/Mind Dominator. I have no buff. In fact, from the looks of things, as soon as this goes live I will become fairly useless.

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So an overall damage scale increase ACROSS THE BOARD for Dominators totally isn't a buff if individual powersets are tweaked?

I presume you have tested this, right?

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Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."