[ QUOTE ]
What's flares...? My earth/fire rocks. He is also is hot. Still no stamina at level 33 (I have consume though).
[/ QUOTE ]
Flares is great, now, and after the changes. If you're not using it...you're missing out.
My first impressions. First of all I'm disappointed at the similarity between sets now. Especially /Elec being brought in line with all the other sets. The longer recharge, harder hitting Blaster versions of the attacks were what was asked for when the set was made. We got it and there was much rejoicing. Why do they need to be lowered now? Surely not because those versions are OP if Blasters still get them.
Combustion was nerfed hard. Was it OP before? If so I never heard of it. This one baffles me.
The changes to Psi are no surprise. Castle did make at least a small token nod to trying to keep the flavor of the set so I'll give him credit for that.
Most of the changes look good. Leave Elec's melee attacks as they were and un-nerf Combustion and I can get on board with the rest of it.
QR
I'm a little concerned about the increased recharge and end costs on many of the powers. Much of what I read in the other thread boils down to "My attack chain is still fine and I don't really have a problem with my blue bar - but this is an IO/permadom build."
I'll be heading over to Test tomorrow to see for myself (45 Mind/Energy and 36 Fire/Psi), but I'm afraid that the slower "feel" some people have complained of is going to be a deal-breaker for me, damage buffs notwithstanding.
[ QUOTE ]
Surely not because those versions are OP if Blasters still get them.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh, what pish. Blasters are a whole different archetype composed of different powersets with different stats and inherents. That another AT gets a different version of a power does not justify that version being given to a different AT.
[ QUOTE ]
One problem I've been seeing with the progression of things since around I13 (PvP revamp and merits, specifically) is that we are moving closer and closer to normalization and standardization wherever it's possible. It seems like a good idea on the surface but it also means that the unique aspects of certain powers or ATs are being stripped in the name of making everything the same. As someone once said, "once everyone is super, no one will be super."
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
Yay! Dommies are now Blasters with pets!
*waves little flag weakly*
[ QUOTE ]
Psychic Shockwave was a 25' area effect power that did single target damage instead of Area damage. That *was* a bug that we allowed to stand until this point, since [u]we were not happy with Dominator Performance[u] as a whole. Now that we have the wherewithal to make the scale of changes seen here, it was time to fix that particular issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was happy.
Now I am not.
I give you Devs another big, fat "thank you for nothing"!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One problem I've been seeing with the progression of things since around I13 (PvP revamp and merits, specifically) is that we are moving closer and closer to normalization and standardization wherever it's possible. It seems like a good idea on the surface but it also means that the unique aspects of certain powers or ATs are being stripped in the name of making everything the same. As someone once said, "once everyone is super, no one will be super."
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
Yay! Dommies are now Blasters with pets!
*waves little flag weakly*
[ QUOTE ]
Psychic Shockwave was a 25' area effect power that did single target damage instead of Area damage. That *was* a bug that we allowed to stand until this point, since [u]we were not happy with Dominator Performance[u] as a whole. Now that we have the wherewithal to make the scale of changes seen here, it was time to fix that particular issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was happy.
Now I am not.
I give you Devs another big, fat "thank you for nothing"!
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I would like to cancel out your "I am not happy" with my "I am happy"
The changes look good and will make playing as Dominator interesting. People seem to be forgetting that Domination damage is now always up, for anyone who didn't have perma Dom, this will be a huge increase in damage and fun.
People need to look at the game as a whole and not just either level 50 farming or AV fights. These changes are great and the Castle is wise.
The question in my mind is this,
How does the damage of Dominators compare to the damage of Defenders and Corrupters?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And FYI /elec now needs to use all 3 melee attacks just to equal the two melee attacks of /eng. All while /eng has a full ranged attack chain by lvl 10 lol.
/elec and /psi were bent over pretty hard. /psi might have deserved it, but /elec never hurt nobody other than in pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh? And did you forget that */Elec still has Build Up...whereas */Energy still does not? 
Cry moar later. Test and attempt to "adjust" for now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ya that amazing 7.5% damage increase (14.3% with 95% enhancement) sure is awesomesauce.
/eng still has powerboost, ya that single power that Castle has publicly stated he dislikes because it trivializes so many things.
I'm not crying, just see no reason why /elec had to be nerfed.
Yes on test /elec is killing enemies about as fast (bit faster) out of domination and no where near as fast as live in domination. But had it not been nerfed it would be punchasizing faces to the extreme.
I've already clearly stated my position to Castle in the appropriate thread:
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Castle, looks like you might be watching this thread for a bit.
Few questions/observations:
1. Is domination in pvp having the +dam stripped? if so is there any plan to work some of that boost back into the base numbers as was done for pve?
2. Would it be possible for you to post the pvp numbers because they are very different than the pve numbers.
3. If one issue doms had was a lot of click powers available so they said they liked higher rech/higher dpa attacks (which seems to be the direction you went for most st stuff 
) how come /elec went the opposite direction? Was it overperforming to warrant such a nerf? Why move it away from the /elec manipulation blaster model that was very well received by the dom community?
4. Regarding /psi; I'm not convinced moving it to 4th place for ranged damage, last for melee and middle of the pack aoe is really "compensating" it for the PSW nerf and its former #1 in aoe position.
5. Are mental blast and subdue not basically the exact same attack now? Should subdue have its rech increased to be more like Bitter ice blast as was done with the other T3 ranged attacks?
6. /fiery was recognized as being the "ranged" set for players because it was so easy to form a complete ranged attack chain without ridiculous amounts of recharge. My earth/fire is a perma dom so will likely be very happy with the new fire, but it appears that a dom will need very high recharge to form a full ranged attack chain with fire. Wasn't the goal to move doms away from feeling the necessity for high recharge and the perma domination it led to?
7. Finally, these changes make it very apparent that doms are not intended to do anything more than low aoe damage and are intended to be st damage dealers. Basically: hold a room>kill them one at a time. If you consult your datamining records for the game how do st damage dealing specialists compare to aoe damage dealers in terms of team popularity? I'm just curious because you said popularity was a goal of these changes. I'm concerned that making doms a "solo" specialist won't go very far in buffing the popularity.
thanks
[/ QUOTE ]
which from where I sit is about 6x more constructive than anything you've had to say on the matter.
So just like when telethons are on TV I now challenge you to meet or beat my feedback 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And FYI /elec now needs to use all 3 melee attacks just to equal the two melee attacks of /eng. All while /eng has a full ranged attack chain by lvl 10 lol.
/elec and /psi were bent over pretty hard. /psi might have deserved it, but /elec never hurt nobody other than in pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh? And did you forget that */Elec still has Build Up...whereas */Energy still does not?
Cry moar later. Test and attempt to "adjust" for now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ya that amazing 7.5% damage increase (14.3% with 95% enhancement) sure is awesomesauce.
/eng still has powerboost, ya that single power that Castle has publicly stated he dislikes because it trivializes so many things.
I'm not crying, just see no reason why /elec had to be nerfed.
Yes on test /elec is killing enemies about as fast (bit faster) out of domination and no where near as fast as live in domination. But had it not been nerfed it would be punchasizing faces to the extreme.
I've already clearly stated my position to Castle in the appropriate thread:
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Castle, looks like you might be watching this thread for a bit.
Few questions/observations:
1. Is domination in pvp having the +dam stripped? if so is there any plan to work some of that boost back into the base numbers as was done for pve?
2. Would it be possible for you to post the pvp numbers because they are very different than the pve numbers.
3. If one issue doms had was a lot of click powers available so they said they liked higher rech/higher dpa attacks (which seems to be the direction you went for most st stuff ) how come /elec went the opposite direction? Was it overperforming to warrant such a nerf? Why move it away from the /elec manipulation blaster model that was very well received by the dom community?
4. Regarding /psi; I'm not convinced moving it to 4th place for ranged damage, last for melee and middle of the pack aoe is really "compensating" it for the PSW nerf and its former #1 in aoe position.
5. Are mental blast and subdue not basically the exact same attack now? Should subdue have its rech increased to be more like Bitter ice blast as was done with the other T3 ranged attacks?
6. /fiery was recognized as being the "ranged" set for players because it was so easy to form a complete ranged attack chain without ridiculous amounts of recharge. My earth/fire is a perma dom so will likely be very happy with the new fire, but it appears that a dom will need very high recharge to form a full ranged attack chain with fire. Wasn't the goal to move doms away from feeling the necessity for high recharge and the perma domination it led to?
7. Finally, these changes make it very apparent that doms are not intended to do anything more than low aoe damage and are intended to be st damage dealers. Basically: hold a room>kill them one at a time. If you consult your datamining records for the game how do st damage dealing specialists compare to aoe damage dealers in terms of team popularity? I'm just curious because you said popularity was a goal of these changes. I'm concerned that making doms a "solo" specialist won't go very far in buffing the popularity.
thanks
[/ QUOTE ]
which from where I sit is about 6x more constructive than anything you've had to say on the matter.
So just like when telethons are on TV I now challenge you to meet or beat my feedback
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, what I've had to say IS about 10 times more constructive that what you've had to say. Why? Because you have NOT fully tested OR even digested the changes yet. Nor have you even begun to attempt to "adjust" to them either.
I called you out on that and I basically told you to attempt to try out the changes "first" (datamine, adjust, number crunch, [u]experience[u]) AND THEN come to your final conclusions on that matter. Jumping the boat, as you've done, is just fool hearty, and show's very little competence on your part.
So I have, indeed, added more to this thread than you and your whines/concerns.
Now, go test.
Let's assume Enervating Field as the baseline -res debuff, since that is the only way Defenders/Corruptors will be dealing more damage to their targets outside of Aim or other self-damage buffs (Accelerate Metabolism and Fulcrum Shift are the only two I can think of.
Corruptor: 0.75/0.75 base melee/range damage, -22.5% res debuff with EF toggled on. 1.225 * 0.75 = 0.92, without factoring in extra damage from Scourge.
Defender: 0.55/0.65 base melee/range damage, -40% res debuff with EF toggled on. 1.4*0.55 and 1.4*0.65 = 0.77 and 0.91.
Dominator, old: 0.75/0.65 base melee/range damage. Assuming 75% damage buff from Domination, that becomes 1.31 and 1.14, roughly. New Dominator damage mods are 1.05/0.95 melee/range. The reason Dominator attacks are doing as a whole, greater damage than current base+Domination attacks is because of the damage scale increases in addition to the base damage modifier increase.
Dominators act more like Blasters compared to Defenders and Corruptors. Despite their lower buff/debuff values, Corruptors come out ahead of Defenders in the damage department both as a base and when factoring in Scourge. Additionally, Corruptors share the 500% damage cap with Blasters, while Defenders have the same 400% damage cap as the other ranged ATs.
EDIT: Another thing to note is that the Defender version of Aim and similar powers provides a 50% damage and tohit buff while the Corruptor version provides a 42.5% bonus. Elec Assault's Build Up is a 17% tohit and 68% damage buff, and Thorny Assault's Aim is a 42.5% bonus to both.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Post deleted by Moderator 08
[ QUOTE ]
In terms of damage, corrupters can bolster the team with buffs/debuffs, SoAs have their Leadership powers, Brutes can deal out more damage and take a hit, and Masterminds with their 6 walking meatshields as well as their own buffs and debuffs. Every single one brings damage plus something else to the table, meaning they are more useful. Which, again, leads me to suggest the way mezzing works in this game needs to be looked at.
[/ QUOTE ]
This game is 5 years old. I seriously doubt they're going to redesign how mezzing works at this point.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In terms of damage, corrupters can bolster the team with buffs/debuffs, SoAs have their Leadership powers, Brutes can deal out more damage and take a hit, and Masterminds with their 6 walking meatshields as well as their own buffs and debuffs. Every single one brings damage plus something else to the table, meaning they are more useful. Which, again, leads me to suggest the way mezzing works in this game needs to be looked at.
[/ QUOTE ]
This game is 5 years old. I seriously doubt they're going to redesign how mezzing works at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
They tackled that project for pvp. Not that I think that system would work vs npcs a modified version *might* work against AV's specifically.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little concerned about the increased recharge and end costs on many of the powers. Much of what I read in the other thread boils down to "My attack chain is still fine and I don't really have a problem with my blue bar - but this is an IO/permadom build."
[/ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I tested it on a pure SO-built, level 30 Mind/Psi, and had no end problems taking on +2 and +3 spawns of Longbow on the turret-laden bridge to Aigencourt in Nerva. The heaviest min/maxing present on this character is that he has Stamina and Hasten.
In general, the only reason you'll run out of end faster using the [edit] single-target* [/edit] attacks with the new stats is actually by killing stuff faster. The DPE didn't drop on most attacks (on several it improved) - and that's comparing the DPE to having Domination up on live. If you're burning end faster, that means your dishing damage faster. You may not be able to sustain that, but that means that at least the single-target DPS top-end for Doms is actually higher than it used to be if you build for it.
Assuming the same DPS rates, the only place you might really be burning more end is in overkill, using the now bigger attacks (with their increased end costs) to finish off a foe that less damage would suffice for. That's probably not an ingnorable effect if you currently have an "endurance casual" build.
* You'll spend more end using your AoEs now on several sets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This game is 5 years old. I seriously doubt they're going to redesign how mezzing works at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
They tackled that project for pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but they likely consider a viable PvP system important for subscription retention/growth. (Let's not get into whether they hit the target here - I'm just saying they have a bottom-line motive there). I have a hard time imagining that they classify a problem affecting two ATs against some occasional foes in quite the same way.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I've been specifically testing out low-level/poorly slotted builds on Test, and haven't come across any issues yet that I didn't already have on Live (Ice Control hates me), and actually have been noticing an increase in performance for some sets (Plant/Thorn, Mind/Ice). At least insofar as Endurance goes.
Recharge, it does actually mess up a few things at low levels, but I didn't find it that big of a problem. Then again, with my predisposition towards creating alts and trying out a lot of sets, I guess I could just be adapting faster to it then I should be.
It's actually a lot better then starting out a lowbie controller, because I actually do get decent damage from both controlling and my secondary. Mostly the secondary.
Very close to low-level blasters for me, but a bit safer, as far as recharge goes. I'd play a Plant/Psi dominator over an Ice/Ice blaster. :/
EDIT: Heck, I'd resurrect my Earth/Psi, too.
[ QUOTE ]
In general, the only reason you'll run out of end faster using the [edit] single-target* [/edit] attacks with the new stats is actually by killing stuff faster. The DPE didn't drop on most attacks (on several it improved) - and that's comparing the DPE to having Domination up on live. If you're burning end faster, that means your dishing damage faster. You may not be able to sustain that, but that means that at least the single-target DPS top-end for Doms is actually higher than it used to be if you build for it.
Assuming the same DPS rates, the only place you might really be burning more end is in overkill, using the now bigger attacks (with their increased end costs) to finish off a foe that less damage would suffice for. That's probably not an ingnorable effect if you currently have an "endurance casual" build.
* You'll spend more end using your AoEs now on several sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, while waiting for an attack to cycle most people will just use a different attack, often one that is higher endurance than warranted. (A broadsword player using disem, or HS to finish off a minion comes to mind).
Or they resort to using the hold/immob from their primary, which is generally not very end efficient even assuming they slotted it for damage.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This game is 5 years old. I seriously doubt they're going to redesign how mezzing works at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
They tackled that project for pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but they likely consider a viable PvP system important for subscription retention/growth. (Let's not get into whether they hit the target here - I'm just saying they have a bottom-line motive there). I have a hard time imagining that they classify a problem affecting two ATs against some occasional foes in quite the same way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, but we don't know how high they rank that importance. Proly more trollers/doms complaining about AV's not getting mezzed that total pvp'ers left in the game lol.
It's also why I specifically said "only AV's" a modified version would entail a change only to how the ptod work, thus the effort required compared to unnecessarily reworking the entire pve mez system would be minuscule.
Assuming these "buffs" result in the popularity that Castle is after it will be one of the hurdles he runs into. More doms = more doms [censored] about sucking vs AV's
I haven't been a dom player long so this is probably just whining on my part but i got my first perma dom Gravity Control/Psionic Assault and after playing him for a bit on test with the changes it pretty much crushed my desire to get him the rest of the way to fifty or play doms again.
my attack chain on grav/elec without hasten and only SO's is pretty great, I use lift->charged bolt->charged brawl->havoc punch.
[ QUOTE ]
Or they resort to using the hold/immob from their primary, which is generally not very end efficient even assuming they slotted it for damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, I always used my mezzes as attacks on my Mind/Psi. I never had an adequate attack chain from Psi assault. I still don't, but that means that, overkill aside, I pretty much broke even.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or they resort to using the hold/immob from their primary, which is generally not very end efficient even assuming they slotted it for damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, I always used my mezzes as attacks on my Mind/Psi. I never had an adequate attack chain from Psi assault. I still don't, but that means that, overkill aside, I pretty much broke even.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mind's a freak, I don't care what AT you are. Mesmerize, Levitate, and Dominate are all very good, solid attacks, let alone mezzes (or a KU in Levitate's case). They just happen to be able to do that job adequately, as well. It's a very solid, early-blooming set that just gets better as you go along unless you had your heart set on getting a reliable pet (in that you can rely on the exact powers it has and the duration you have it; Confuse/Mass Confuse are really awesome at letting you effectively steal whatever pet you want).
The fact that it got boosted with these changes as well for Dominators is just going to exaggerate the fact it's probably one of the better designed control sets out there. :/
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or they resort to using the hold/immob from their primary, which is generally not very end efficient even assuming they slotted it for damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, I always used my mezzes as attacks on my Mind/Psi. I never had an adequate attack chain from Psi assault. I still don't, but that means that, overkill aside, I pretty much broke even.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, and for that particular combo that was one of the reasons it was recommended. Mind offers the early attacks that /psi sucked at.
On the other hand for the plant/fire I just rolled up I would have been able to chain flares and fireblast with basically no slotting. Now I *have* to use strangle and entangle if I want any semblance of an attack chain.
No doubt the damage has increased, but in that instance the end consumption has actually increased at a disproportionate rate compared to if I could fill the chain with the more efficient assault powers.
The result is mixed for me. Yes I'm killing individual foes faster, but I find it to have less flow and I'm waiting around either for powers or endurance to recover.
Under high recharge I have absolutely no doubt that /fire will be amazing, though it was already pretty fantastic on live under those conditions as well. I'm just not keen (right now) on standing around, or the prospect that I need a lot of rech on my dom to make it play smoothly.
except you ahve artificially decreased it, you don' tHAVE to have a constant chian of attacks, you're hurting your own endurance per damage by adding in attacks that have bad endurance per end. If you use the exact same chain as before and jsut don't fill in the holes you'll have more damage over time, and better damage over endurance. once you get to higher levels you'll get a full attack chian with good attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
except you ahve artificially decreased it, you don' tHAVE to have a constant chian of attacks, you're hurting your own endurance per damage by adding in attacks that have bad endurance per end. If you use the exact same chain as before and jsut don't fill in the holes you'll have more damage over time, and better damage over endurance. once you get to higher levels you'll get a full attack chian with good attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Later levels when the attack chain can fill out and/or higher recharge values were already mentioned.
If you are cool with standing around doing nothing all the power too you. From my experience, most players aside for /empaths aren't (especially on an "assault" designed AT).
[ QUOTE ]
And FYI /elec now needs to use all 3 melee attacks just to equal the two melee attacks of /eng. All while /eng has a full ranged attack chain by lvl 10 lol.
/elec and /psi were bent over pretty hard. /psi might have deserved it, but /elec never hurt nobody other than in pvp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh? And did you forget that */Elec still has Build Up...whereas */Energy still does not?
Cry moar later. Test and attempt to "adjust" for now.