Interesting that you turn this into a "Kruunch vs. everyone else".
Lot of tanks read these boards. Only a couple disagreeing with me. Probably because most of them don't care ... they play the game to play the game.
Might wanna take a hint.
I tank. I care. I just don't care to argue about this older than the hills topic.
I agree with both Kruunch and Aett Thorn about many other things. I have my own opinion about taunt and I don't care what anyone else thinks about it anymore. Its a tool I love to use and do use. I keep moving and I never stop attacking. That covers all the bases for me. When that doesn't work, then I assume our inherent got broke again. It happens.
To tell you the truth though, I take comfort in knowing there are some knowledgeable players that understand the taunt mechanic as well as the devs do, for the most part, and can communicate with them to help narrow down what is wrong when it does break.
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
I play when I can. I can post but not play from work.
The casual player that you seem to be talking about: he probably doesn't even notice or care if a stray mob escapes his aggro. Most of the time, it's probably dead before it matters anyways.
To steal aggro away from an aura-voke, a character would need to either have their own taunt aura, or do 6,750 - 13,500 damage at level 50 (lower value for a debuffing set, higher for a non-debuffing set). And that's another Tank. A Scrapper would need to do 9,000 - 18,000 damage. A Blaster? 13,500 - 27,000 damage.
That is JUST taking into account a single mob in your Taunt aura radius. If you can squeeze in ten mobs to the radius, then you can keep them all through that. Anything beyond the ten can be stripped from you just using the aura. If a mob leaves your aura range, the amount of damage needed to get aggro drops because your Threat decays on that target.
Those are the facts. If you'd like to show us that they are wrong, then show us. But your anecdotal evidence does not disprove them in the slightest.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Lot of tanks read these boards. Only a couple disagreeing with me. Probably because most of them don't care ... they play the game to play the game.
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Either that or maybe they don't understand the mechanics well enough to make an informed decision either way. At any rate, only having a few people disagree with you doesn't make you right.
[edit: Btw, that isn't meant as an insult to anyone, just raising another possibility.]
Also, could you please drop the condescending "you're wrong" / "you don't play the game" / "take a hint" nonsense. It doesn't support your cause, and it's quite obnoxious to see people present evidence and all you respond with are unsupported anecdotes and insults. I think most here are more than willing to civilly discuss mechanics and their methodology / results, of which you're doing none of.
(Yes, I realize that comment is directly confrontational and borderline "civil." I loathe coming across that way.)
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Interesting that you turn this into a "Kruunch vs. everyone else".
Lot of tanks read these boards. Only a couple disagreeing with me. Probably because most of them don't care ... they play the game to play the game.
Might wanna take a hint.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or a significant portion don't see any point in even answering some of your posts because they are so ridiculous and/or seemingly deliberately insulting. Make no mistake, it's clear you know what you're talking about *most* of the time. But then you get really arrogant and insultingly dismiss OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCE that disagree with your OPINION AND EXPERIENCE.
Unless you can show us that you were handed the 'tank bible' at some point, a portion of your posts can only be regarded as anecdotal, with ZERO basis in fact and no correlation to the personal experience of multiple other players.
hint hint
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Sarrate: I'd be happy to but pedantic circular conversations tend to irritate me (which this has turned into long ago).
And pardon but "I have run comprehensive experiments of the taunt mechanic ..." isn't any more "proof" then saying "I'm right, you're wrong ... nyah nyah nyah".
Thought you might have picked up on that by now.
Aett himself just answered one of the myriad reasons of what I've been talking about. Several of the most popular builds of a popular AT (Scrapper) run taunt auras as well, effectively negating what we've been discussing (taunt aura only taunting sans attacks).
Aett: I'm not talking about casual players. This may come as a shock to you, but *most* of the currently best built Tankers I see running today (well, at least from my server) don't post here. Most don't even bother to read the forums.
Probably to stay away from conversations like this (on both our parts).
Largo points out that he moves, he attacks (maybe even Taunts) and that settles a great majority of his agro questions. I would take that one step further and say that settles about 99.9% of the agro concerns you could have in this game as a Tanker.
And I base that observation on play. Not forum discussion. Not "scientific experiments". Not spread sheets. Not what Mid's says. Not what Tomax's says. So if it sounds like I'm being condescending, it's because I am.
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Lot of tanks read these boards. Only a couple disagreeing with me. Probably because most of them don't care ... they play the game to play the game.
Might wanna take a hint.
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I disagree with almost everything you say, but I usually don't bother mentioning it because you seem to not care about anyone's experiences (edit: here) but your own. Then, to see your comments about controlled experiments only reinforces my opinion of the uselessness of debating with you. You're welcome to believe in abiogeneis, alchemy, a flat earth, and geocentrism when they fit your "real world" experiences. Just don't expect others to stop their pursuit for understanding.
I'm sure everyone else that hasn't commented agrees with you, though.
Anyone here ever tried Allen & Son's Barbeque near Pittsboro, NC? Pretty good stuff, lemme tell you. Another good one if you're ever down this way is B's Barbeque, in Greenville, NC.
Shortspark: 50 Fire/Fire tanker
Emberblast: 50 Fire/Fire blaster
Jessie Inferno: 50 Fire/SD scrapper
a wizard: 50 Rad/Sonic defender
The Nemesis Plothole: 50 StJ/Reg scrapper
Jessie Inferno: 50 Fire/SD scrapper
a wizard: 50 Rad/Sonic defender
The Nemesis Plothole: 50 StJ/Reg scrapper
The BBQ threadjack was clever the first time. It was amusing the next half-dozen or so times.
Now, it's just old and tired.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Krunch I've missed you man. I agree a lot of people are so enamored, so helplessly devoted to JUST posting , that they forget the simple things in playing the game. But honestly, this dispute can be dealt with. Get Gamecam or Fraps, and show. Thats what I do whenever I'm having a problem getting my initial point. Or invite someone to see you tank, I've done it countless times. What better than actual game footage?, Humble Film at its best.
I spend most of my time tanking (as you can tell by my number of posts) so I cant...rather I don't spend my time on the boards. Mostly because someone always has to try and disprove something, its the way of the world. And MMO's tend to bend to any exploit/tactic one might have toward the combat system. Scrappers wanna be Tanks, Tanks wanna be Scrappers, Blasters wann solo every AV now thanks to IO's. Someone always finds a way. But it's never enough for some, so why not just make a recording and show us how You(in general) play.
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Also, could you please drop the condescending "you're wrong" / "you don't play the game" / "take a hint" nonsense. It doesn't support your cause, and it's quite obnoxious to see people present evidence
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What evidence? as far as I'm concerend WP has a weak taunt aura, Invincibility has a strong taunt aura...just dont let that scrapper or blaster hit something. Only Mudpots, Icicles and Blazing aura serve as great aggro aura's because of the dmg they do. Every other aura is either weak or glitchy. I'll be posting a vid soon BTW. That's soon to be evidence and not just board posting.
Kruunch we need to team again.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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If you were a *real* Tanker playing with a *real* group of people (not a controlled experimental setting (seriously?)) you would know that taunt auras by themselves do not hold agro well enough. You would also know that taunt auras *and* punchvoke will take care of 90% of your agro concerns, with another 9% being reserved for Taunt. The other 1% I'd put down to the actual skill of the player (that's how simplistic playing this game is ... especially at the higher levels).
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A few points here.
First, I'm not really sure where you are getting the idea that I'm not actually doing any "real" tanking, nor what you mean to prove by impugning my tanking ability (of which you know absolutely nothing). The reason why I'm interested in threat mechanics is precisely because I tank a lot, more than I play any other AT in this game.
Second, your statements above have nothing to do with the point I've raised -- in fact, I would mostly agree with the claims you make above (except that I'd shy away from making blanket statements based on made-up percentages, and don't generally hold Gauntlet in very high regard). But: the specific claim I made -- that raw damage generally cannot override the threat caused by a taunt aura -- you conspicuously failed to address while talking about completely unrelated points.
Third, there is a reason why I prefer controlled, reproducible experiments. Human perception and intuition is notoriously unreliable. For example, it favored the Impetus Theory over Newtonian mechanics. Unfortunately, while the Impetus Theory is more intuitive to humans, it also simply wrong.
That's why experiments need to be reproducible and why theories need to be falsifiable. Even in the context of MMORPG combat, this holds. In fact, even more so, since the human experience of simulated combat in a team environment is generally tainted by a skewed perception of time, distance, and other metrics, and is also incomplete in that you cannot be aware of all events. You see, in short, a subjectively edited version of the actual events that occur on the server.
The whole point is that if you want your claims to be testable, you must present them in a form that is testable. Detailing specific, precise theories that can be corroborated or refuted by testing (what you refer to as "experiments" in scare quotes) does exactly that.
The impetus theory?...really?...I know that wasn't at the top of your head. That's like me comparing MMO game mechanics with biomedical engineering. Its silly.Just becuase its something you have an interest in or plan on doing, doesn't mean we want to see a post of it. Moving on. Is anyone up to putting their tank to the test?. Server and global. Because just like the impetus theory and every other scientic guess work, we need to SEE actual proof. Like I posted before, gamecam and or Fraps. Everyone is so particularly busy crunching numbers or linking wiki pages, yet no one offered to show, or to record actual evidence.
As far as I'm concerned everyone is just talking in circles about who plays what tank and how much. Show me some proof. On that note spare us the scientific diatribe, pseudo intellectual posts on a VIDEO GAME board is oxymoronic. Its like people forgot to use actual game proof and went on to crunching numbers and quoting out of date theorems. City of Pretentiousness...
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
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Also, could you please drop the condescending "you're wrong" / "you don't play the game" / "take a hint" nonsense. It doesn't support your cause, and it's quite obnoxious to see people present evidence and all you respond with are unsupported anecdotes and insults. I think most here are more than willing to civilly discuss mechanics and their methodology / results, of which you're doing none of.
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As far as im concerned no one is showing evidence, just posting numbers and their own experiences, a bit pretentious aren't we?.
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(Yes, I realize that comment is directly confrontational and borderline "civil." I loathe coming across that way.)
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Yeah,just like I loathe freshly cooked macadamian nut pancakes. If your going to be confrontational, don't be passive agressive, it shows a weakness you think your hiding, but thats just text book, and your not text book right?....your orginal and unique. 
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
[ QUOTE ]
As far as im concerned no one is showing evidence, just posting numbers and their own experiences, a bit pretentious aren't we?.
[/ QUOTE ]
When Castle told us how Threat actually works, a lot of tests were done on the subject. Many were accompanied by videos or screenshots in-game, or involved several of us on the Tanker forum watching to see how things actually worked. They worked exactly as Sorciere and Sarate say that they do, in multiple tests on the Test server. This was done over the course of what, 6 months or so, maybe more?
Server purges have caused these to be lost, but they were done. Quoting them as evidence still counts as such. The tests were done. Why should we take our time to do 6 more months of testing of a mechanic that we've already tested, when the people making the counter claim have done none?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Miss the point of analogies, huh? The basic point that they were making was that human anecdotal experience and observation is notoriously bad. Need an in-game example instead of a real-life one? People think that accuracy is lower than it actually is. Before the scaling accuracy effect was put into the game for lowbies, we used to get on these forums, a couple of times after each issue, somebody stating that accuracy had been nerfed for some set or another (usually Dark Melee, for some reason). Yet, when people ran herostats to confirm, it was ALWAYS proved that nothing had happened to accuracy.
The culprit? People not being able to accurately gauge misses and hits.
But pretentiousness? I highly doubt it. Just because they used an analogy that you don't like or don't think fits (or even one that you might not understand) doesn't make them pretentious.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
What evidence? as far as I'm concerend WP has a weak taunt aura, Invincibility has a strong taunt aura...just dont let that scrapper or blaster hit something. Only Mudpots, Icicles and Blazing aura serve as great aggro aura's because of the dmg they do. Every other aura is either weak or glitchy. I'll be posting a vid soon BTW. That's soon to be evidence and not just board posting.
[/ QUOTE ]
So Death Shroud isn't good? How about Oppresive Gloom or Cloak of Fear?
Hate to break it to ya, but Ice Armor wasn't seen as the king of aggro because of Icicles. It was seen that way because of Chilling Embrace: an auto-hit, triple debuff aggro aura. Blazing Aura, for a long time, was seen as one of the weaker auras, because it had no auto-hit component. If you missed, then you didn't get aggro.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as im concerned no one is showing evidence, just posting numbers and their own experiences, a bit pretentious aren't we?.
[/ QUOTE ]
When Castle told us how Threat actually works, a lot of tests were done on the subject. Many were accompanied by videos or screenshots in-game, or involved several of us on the Tanker forum watching to see how things actually worked. They worked exactly as Sorciere and Sarate say that they do, in multiple tests on the Test server. This was done over the course of what, 6 months or so, maybe more?
Server purges have caused these to be lost, but they were done. Quoting them as evidence still counts as such. The tests were done. Why should we take our time to do 6 more months of testing of a mechanic that we've already tested, when the people making the counter claim have done none?
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget that Castle was attempting to correct earlier announcements (of his) that were faulty. Additionally his comments (at least as quoted by the archive that Sarrate linked) indicated you have to have some extreme conditions to override Taunt.
The fact that taunt auras (with the exception of RTTC) are listed as the same taunt mag as the power Taunt, but do not in fact work in the same way (despite what Sorciere seems to claim), leads me to believe that either the tool tip description is wrong (yet again) or that the taunt auras have another unlisted mechanic applied to them (much like Gauntlet) that makes their agro "slippery" by itself.
Additionally, I wouldn't go crowing on about how many tests you (or the various board junkies) did when said board junkies didn't even know that Gauntlet required a toHit check per mob or that its accuracy was not enhanceable.
Finally, it's not like this issue is hard to test ... just grab a buddy and rub up against a mob with your taunt aura. I did this last night and it works *exactly* how I explained it.
You don't get a screen or vid since you can't be bothered to actually play your Tankers, I can't be bothered to show you "proof".
Ad Hominem Fallacy FTL!
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The fact that taunt auras (with the exception of RTTC) are listed as the same taunt mag as the power Taunt, but do not in fact work in the same way (despite what Sorciere seems to claim),
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about now? Can you back this statement up with something besides just your own experiential claims?
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Additionally, I wouldn't go crowing on about how many tests you (or the various board junkies) did when said board junkies didn't even know that Gauntlet required a toHit check per mob or that its accuracy was not enhanceable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Because Gauntlet requiring a ToHit check was put in AFTER we did the tests. It was BECAUSE we found out how Taunt actually worked that the Devs futzed with the system.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah,just like I loathe freshly cooked macadamian nut pancakes. If your going to be confrontational, don't be passive agressive, it shows a weakness you think your hiding, but thats just text book, and your not text book right?....your orginal and unique.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lacrymosa: My statement is genuine. I don't like fights or pointless bickering. I am human, and things can get under my skin and get the better of me.
Sadly, there's no way I can prove this. You have only my word to take for it. If you can't or don't want to, I understand.
[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, I wouldn't go crowing on about how many tests you (or the various board junkies) did when said board junkies didn't even know that Gauntlet required a toHit check per mob or that its accuracy was not enhanceable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kruunch: Gauntlet is a mechanic that utilizes Taunt. I've tested tested how Taunt works; Gauntlet I have not, nor do I have any reason to pretend I did. Ignorance of Gauntlet is not indicative of ignorance of Taunt.
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The impetus theory?...really?...I know that wasn't at the top of your head.
[/ QUOTE ]
It was simply an example of how an intuitive understanding how something works that sounded entirely reasonable on the face of it doesn't hold up once it's subjected to actual tests aimed at trying to falsify that theory.
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Because just like the impetus theory and every other scientic guess work, we need to SEE actual proof. Like I posted before, gamecam and or Fraps. Everyone is so particularly busy crunching numbers or linking wiki pages, yet no one offered to show, or to record actual evidence.
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Unfortunately, I don't have my old demorecords anymore. However, I did postulate a simple experiment that is easily reproducible; if taunt auras were insufficient to hold aggro over raw damage, then this experiment should be able to show that.
That was 2 years ago buddy.
And you say I'M out of touch?
Pffft.
[ QUOTE ]
Hate to break it to ya, but Ice Armor wasn't seen as the king of aggro because of Icicles. It was seen that way because of Chilling Embrace: an auto-hit, triple debuff aggro aura. Blazing Aura, for a long time, was seen as one of the weaker auras, because it had no auto-hit component. If you missed, then you didn't get aggro.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate Blazing Aura...mainly because of the end rate.
[ QUOTE ]
The BBQ threadjack was clever the first time. It was amusing the next half-dozen or so times.
Now, it's just old and tired.
[/ QUOTE ]
Old and Tired? You sound like you need a new Mattress.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
[ QUOTE ]
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Yeah,just like I loathe freshly cooked macadamian nut pancakes. If your going to be confrontational, don't be passive agressive, it shows a weakness you think your hiding, but thats just text book, and your not text book right?....your orginal and unique.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lacrymosa: My statement is genuine. I don't like fights or pointless bickering. I am human, and things can get under my skin and get the better of me.
Sadly, there's no way I can prove this. You have only my word to take for it. If you can't or don't want to, I understand.
[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, I wouldn't go crowing on about how many tests you (or the various board junkies) did when said board junkies didn't even know that Gauntlet required a toHit check per mob or that its accuracy was not enhanceable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kruunch: Gauntlet is a mechanic that utilizes Taunt. I've tested tested how Taunt works; Gauntlet I have not, nor do I have any reason to pretend I did. Ignorance of Gauntlet is not indicative of ignorance of Taunt.
[/ QUOTE ]
This was more pointed at Sorciere who has claimed to have done extensive tests of the agro mechanic as a Tanker, which would have to include knowing about how Gauntlet worked to be somewhat accurate in those conclusions.
You however seem guilty of weighting the post by the poster and not by it's content. Quite a few times I've already caught you (and Aett for that matter) answering posts of mine on points I either never said or I had stipulated on through various threads. If you can't seem to control your use of the Reply button because the "tone" of my posts drives you to hallucinate or entirely miss points I've posted on, maybe it's time to lessen the post count.
Sorry about the tone btw ... I *loathe* having to point out the obvious but it makes me cranky when I do. I'm only human after all.
/rolls eyes
[ QUOTE ]
If you were a *real* Tanker playing with a *real* group of people (not a controlled experimental setting (seriously?)) you would know that taunt auras by themselves do not hold agro well enough. You would also know that taunt auras *and* punchvoke will take care of 90% of your agro concerns, with another 9% being reserved for Taunt. The other 1% I'd put down to the actual skill of the player (that's how simplistic playing this game is ... especially at the higher levels).
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh.
Kruunch, I just want you to know how this comes across to most of us.
Us: The aggro auras work fine to hold aggro through damage.
You: No, they don't, you'll need to use attacks or Taunt to really hold aggro well enough through damage.
Us: Actually, I've never seen this need in game.
You: Well, I have.
Us: Well, we haven't. Also, in controlled experiments, it is demonstratively false.
You: I don't care about your experiments, just my own anecdotal evidence. Your anecdotal evidence is also not good enough.
We've had people say that it's fine in game (and that's been my experience playing my tank as well), and that it works just as we state in controlled experiments. I don't really know what else you're looking for here. But insulting people and saying that they're not not real Tanks doesn't win you any fans.
If you want to actually show us that we're wrong, show us that we're wrong. Give us some proof to back you up on that. Just stating that we're wrong with no evidence to back you up, then claiming that our anecdotal evidence also isn't right is bordering on insanity. It doesn't make you look right. It just makes you look stubborn.
If we can't use our anecdotal evidence or controlled experiments to make our points, what the heck do you want?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus