The infos are just inconsistant and a tad misleading. Taunt enhancements add to the duration of your taunt. That's the main focus of enhancing "taunt". The mouseover shows you the salient bonuses with enhancements in place while the "detailed info" generally shows you base numbers adjusted for level.
The Taunt magnitude is almost meaningless as the power itself basically works like a control (you have to get into some extreme circumstaces where another toon is able to override your taunt).
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The infos are just inconsistant and a tad misleading. Taunt enhancements add to the duration of your taunt. That's the main focus of enhancing "taunt". The mouseover shows you the salient bonuses with enhancements in place while the "detailed info" generally shows you base numbers adjusted for level.
The Taunt magnitude is almost meaningless as the power itself basically works like a control (you have to get into some extreme circumstaces where another toon is able to override your taunt).
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Taunt Magnitude does have a couple of places where it can come in handy to know about it. The one I know about most is the Banished Pantheon Masks, who have higher than average Taunt Mag Protection. A single Taunt may not get their attention.
Also, Taunt is not really like a control. It's a mathematical value in a long string of values for a total Threat determination. Just Taunting somebody does NOT mean that you will hold aggro, especially if somebody is able to put out a lot of damage quickly with a debuffing set.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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The infos are just inconsistant and a tad misleading. Taunt enhancements add to the duration of your taunt. That's the main focus of enhancing "taunt". The mouseover shows you the salient bonuses with enhancements in place while the "detailed info" generally shows you base numbers adjusted for level.
The Taunt magnitude is almost meaningless as the power itself basically works like a control (you have to get into some extreme circumstaces where another toon is able to override your taunt).
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Taunt Magnitude does have a couple of places where it can come in handy to know about it. The one I know about most is the Banished Pantheon Masks, who have higher than average Taunt Mag Protection. A single Taunt may not get their attention.
Also, Taunt is not really like a control. It's a mathematical value in a long string of values for a total Threat determination. Just Taunting somebody does NOT mean that you will hold aggro, especially if somebody is able to put out a lot of damage quickly with a debuffing set.
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You're being obtuse and overly nitpicky.
For all intents and purposes Taunt does mean you don't have to worry about agro. I have yet to have another toon pull agro from one of my Taunts and the only times I've heard of Taunt being overridden is when its done outside of the range of the Tankers AOE *and* a crazy burst DPS toon is on top of the mob.
In fact, it works so much like a control that for *years* Castle was reporting it as an unoverridable control.
This is what happens when you try to play the game from these forums instead of actually playing the game.
P.S. - Banished Pantheon Masks resistance shortens the duration of a taunt. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with magnitude unless you're just relying on a taunt *aura* or a side swipe by Gauntlet to maintain agro which is silly.
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Also, Taunt is not really like a control. It's a mathematical value in a long string of values for a total Threat determination.
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Which is how I understand it, but that mathematical value has no affect on duration?
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You're being obtuse and overly nitpicky.
For all intents and purposes Taunt does mean you don't have to worry about agro. I have yet to have another toon pull agro from one of my Taunts and the only times I've heard of Taunt being overridden is when its done outside of the range of the Tankers AOE *and* a crazy burst DPS toon is on top of the mob.
In fact, it works so much like a control that for *years* Castle was reporting it as an unoverridable control.
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Really? Because my MA/WP scrapper was stealing aggro from an Invuln Tank against AVs in the STF just last night. Mostly due to damage. Granted, the Tanker was relying on his aggro aura. But just his Taunt value alone, on the aggro aura, should have been enough to hold the aggro. It wasn't. My damage was much higher, so I ended up stealing the aggro.
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This is what happens when you try to play the game from these forums instead of actually playing the game.
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Ahhh...the "your experience does not match mine, so you must not play the game" argument.
Listen, we don't agree on things, but I do play the game. Stop trying to dismiss arguments that you don't agree with. I have seen in-game, several times where Tanker aggro has been lost. Is it rare? Yes, it sure is. Is it possible to do? Yes, yes it is.
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P.S. - Banished Pantheon Masks resistance shortens the duration of a taunt. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with magnitude unless you're just relying on a taunt *aura* or a side swipe by Gauntlet to maintain agro which is silly.
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Banished Pantheon, at least used to, have 4.0 Taunt Mag Protection, meaning that all of the 3-Mag Taunts would not be enough to deter them from attacking a squishy who got their attention first. You'd need to combine Taunt effects to get them off the squishy.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Also, Taunt is not really like a control. It's a mathematical value in a long string of values for a total Threat determination.
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Which is how I understand it, but that mathematical value has no affect on duration?
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The Mag effect from Taunt has no effect on the duration. There are several display value oddities when it comes to Taunt and Taunt-like effects. However, the enhancements ARE increasing the duration of the Taunt, just not being displayed as such.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Des: I'm honestly not sure, but I'd guess the detailed info (with the 400% - 500% MAG) is incorrect/referencing the wrong data. If you look at a taunt aura, they show the MAG as a % as well. I don't think that there's any way to test it either - I don't think Combat Attributes has any listing for "Taunt" to spy on with a Power Analyzer.
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For all intents and purposes Taunt does mean you don't have to worry about agro. I have yet to have another toon pull agro from one of my Taunts and the only times I've heard of Taunt being overridden is when its done outside of the range of the Tankers AOE *and* a crazy burst DPS toon is on top of the mob.
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Kruunch: Team with another character that taunts in some way (Tankers, Brutes, and Invuln/Shield Scrappers in particular), that's where the situation becomes the most pronounced. In fact, my experience with my Invuln Scrapper is what drove me to test Taunt mechanics as much as I did. There was no way what I was seeing in game should have ever happened under the binary "on/off" explanation.
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In fact, it works so much like a control that for *years* Castle was reporting it as an unoverridable control.
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Kruunch: I'd say it didn't help that the internal documents said it worked precisely in that manner.
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P.S. - Banished Pantheon Masks resistance shortens the duration of a taunt. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with magnitude unless you're just relying on a taunt *aura* or a side swipe by Gauntlet to maintain agro which is silly.
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Kruunch: Pain/Death Mask Resistance
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* -100.00000 Melee_Ones Taunt for 10.25s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
* RES(Taunt) 100.00000 Melee_Ones% for 10.25s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
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They have Taunt protection (MAG100) and Taunt resistance (10,000%, I'm sure that's over the NPC cap, whatever that is).
I should point out that Lord Recluse has those exact same properties, although it's been demonstrated you can keep him taunted, but he is a lot squirrelier than most. (Granted the Tanker normally has 5-10 minutes of time to do nothing but Taunt.) Either that, or the MAG isn't working quite as Castle described to us.
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Either that, or the MAG isn't working quite as Castle described to us.
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I am quite sure that it doesn't. Based on what we know about how Taunt works now, there's almost no reason for Taunt Mag Protection to even be in the game. There are only a few things that use it, and they get Taunt resistance as well, which should work out just fine anyways.
Taunt Mag, except in a very few cases, has no reason to be there. I would imagine that there is something else going on behind the scenes that we don't know about.
Even in controlled testing, Taunt didn't seem to always work out as advertised. I really would not be surprised if the Taunt Mag was somehow changing things behind the scenes.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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You're being obtuse and overly nitpicky.
For all intents and purposes Taunt does mean you don't have to worry about agro. I have yet to have another toon pull agro from one of my Taunts and the only times I've heard of Taunt being overridden is when its done outside of the range of the Tankers AOE *and* a crazy burst DPS toon is on top of the mob.
In fact, it works so much like a control that for *years* Castle was reporting it as an unoverridable control.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Because my MA/WP scrapper was stealing aggro from an Invuln Tank against AVs in the STF just last night. Mostly due to damage. Granted, the Tanker was relying on his aggro aura. But just his Taunt value alone, on the aggro aura, should have been enough to hold the aggro. It wasn't. My damage was much higher, so I ended up stealing the aggro.
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Yet another prolific poster who doesn't actually read what he's posting to. Seriously?
We've been talking about the power "Taunt" , not taunt auras, which I believe I've already stipulated and commented on.
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This is what happens when you try to play the game from these forums instead of actually playing the game.
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Ahhh...the "your experience does not match mine, so you must not play the game" argument.
Listen, we don't agree on things, but I do play the game. Stop trying to dismiss arguments that you don't agree with. I have seen in-game, several times where Tanker aggro has been lost. Is it rare? Yes, it sure is. Is it possible to do? Yes, yes it is.
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Actually my comment about playing on these boards was directed at people who have posted so often that they truly have nothing more to offer constructively, but feel the need to find an excuse to post some more.
My posts tend to answer questions based on what you will *usually* (read as 90%+ of the time) encounter in the game, not the exceptions to the rule (although I do usually clarify that there are exceptions to the rule which I have done here).
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P.S. - Banished Pantheon Masks resistance shortens the duration of a taunt. As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with magnitude unless you're just relying on a taunt *aura* or a side swipe by Gauntlet to maintain agro which is silly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Banished Pantheon, at least used to, have 4.0 Taunt Mag Protection, meaning that all of the 3-Mag Taunts would not be enough to deter them from attacking a squishy who got their attention first. You'd need to combine Taunt effects to get them off the squishy.
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Again the difference between playing the game on a regular basis and playing the game by numbers (and I know you've played the game plenty so I'm not dismissing your experience). Yes you are correct in that if you stood in the middle of Banished Pantheon and did absolutely nothing (just relying on your taunt aura), it would be very easy to pull agro from the Tanker. However this is the case with all mobs generally speaking the only difference being that with Banished Pantheon the slightest effects will pull agro versus doing your normal damage which will pull agro off any taunt aura if nothing else is done by the Tanker.
The essential noticeable difference (at least in my experience and to Sarrate's point) with Banished Pantheon masks is that the ability Taunt lasts shorter then normal. If I was going to quantify further (i.e. if this had been a thread about Banished Pantheon bosses) I would have also mentioned that agro is more slippier then usual when relying just on taunt auras + punchvoke.
To Sarrate's point, yet another area in the game that is documented vaguely or where actual experience opposes documentation. By her quoted Banished Pantheon description, I would read that as Taunt being fully resisted by Banished Pantheon which is obviously not the case when actually fighting them.
Additionally (and also to Sarrate's point) while the internal documentation might have read Taunt works as a control, the fact that it actually *does* work as a control for over 99% of the scenarios in the game, kind of reinforces my point.
To the OP's original question: I don't know if Taunt enhancements actually raise the Taunt magnitude of the taunt effect (again documentation in this game being somewhat vague and misleading at times) but I'd say for all intents and purposes, if it did, this would not be a reason for slotting the enhancement, but rather the effect you'd really be looking for is the duration that the enhancement adds to the taunt effect.
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Yet another prolific poster who doesn't actually read what he's posting to. Seriously?
We've been talking about the power "Taunt" , not taunt auras, which I believe I've already stipulated and commented on.
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My apologies. This is a problem of writing, especially on the forums. It's hard to tell the difference when people are talking about the power Taunt, and the effect Taunt, unless specifically pointed out otherwise. From what you were writing, it sounded to me like you were talking about the effect, and not the power. My apologies for misinterpreting.
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My posts tend to answer questions based on what you will *usually* (read as 90%+ of the time) encounter in the game, not the exceptions to the rule (although I do usually clarify that there are exceptions to the rule which I have done here).
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And that's fine. However, I am of the opinion that we have here, on the forums, a way to teach people how things work 100% of the time, and then share with them how it will usually work out in the end for that 90% of the time. Why do I feel this way? Because I don't want people coming back here and telling us that we lied to them, or claiming that something is broken, just because we didn't explain it well the first time.
Thus, why I try to cover all the bases up front. Yes, teaching how things work 90-95% of the time is fine. But why not also point out (since it doesn't take much longer) that that is what you're doing, and that there are other cases.
As an example; from your original post:
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The Taunt magnitude is almost meaningless as the power itself basically works like a control (you have to get into some extreme circumstaces where another toon is able to override your taunt).
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This is fine for most of the game, and covers it well enough. However, it's not really how it works. Why not, in this case, explain how it does work in all cases, and explain that in 90% of the cases, it doesn't really matter?
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Again the difference between playing the game on a regular basis and playing the game by numbers (and I know you've played the game plenty so I'm not dismissing your experience). Yes you are correct in that if you stood in the middle of Banished Pantheon and did absolutely nothing (just relying on your taunt aura), it would be very easy to pull agro from the Tanker. However this is the case with all mobs generally speaking the only difference being that with Banished Pantheon the slightest effects will pull agro versus doing your normal damage which will pull agro off any taunt aura if nothing else is done by the Tanker.
The essential noticeable difference (at least in my experience and to Sarrate's point) with Banished Pantheon masks is that the ability Taunt lasts shorter then normal. If I was going to quantify further (i.e. if this had been a thread about Banished Pantheon bosses) I would have also mentioned that agro is more slippier then usual when relying just on taunt auras + punchvoke.
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As Sarrate pointed out, I was wrong. It looks like BP Pain and Death Masks have a mag protection against taunt that is at 100, and 100% resistance to boot. This has generally been my experience with them. If the Tanker goes in first, then you're fine. You'll be able to hold aggro just fine. However, I have, on numerous occasions, not been able to pull one of these guys off of a Blaster who aggro'd them first. At that point, all I've been able to do is try to bring it down quickly.
If, without knowing that there were aberrations in the "Taunt acts like a control" department, I were to come across this, it would seem to me like Taunt (the effect) was broken, because nothing I could do, short of doing more damage than the blaster, would bring the mob's attention to me.
While they really are the only exception that I can think of off the top of my head, I thought it bore pointing out that there is a case where Taunt Mag is relevant. I was not saying that your initial synopsis was wrong, just that there are closet cases that can come up in normal play.
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Additionally (and also to Sarrate's point) while the internal documentation might have read Taunt works as a control, the fact that it actually *does* work as a control for over 99% of the scenarios in the game, kind of reinforces my point.
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Yes, it does, but, to be honest,t hat doesn't make it right. Why not explain how it actually does work, instead of how it looks like it works? I guess that was my main argument.
But hey, the OP got their question answered. So this is all kind of moot anyways.
So, I'm going to ask another question here at the end of this mostly meaningless post:
Has anybody done any looking into of Threat degradation? I ask because I noted some interesting things last night on the STF, mostly between the tanker and me against the AVs and stronger opponents.
Now, at level 54, the AVs will only get 39% of Taunt's duration on them. At level 50, with Taunt's base duration lasting 45 seconds, and a recycle time of 11.67 seconds, unslotted, Taunt should still be up for 5.88 seconds (probably about 5 with Arcanatime factored in) even after it cycles (so, 5 seconds of stack time).
Now, also at +4 to me, the Scrapper, and a willpower at that, my aggro aura should only have an effective time of 0.4875 seconds. Meaning that it's less than the time I would need to stack it.
Now, with those two things being what I know (assuming that neither of us had slotted for Taunt, and I know that I didn't), here's what I actually saw:
The Tanker, while Taunting at range, as long as he kept Taunting , was holding aggro well enough. However, if he missed a Taunt cycles for even a little bit, aggro quickly fell my way. After I noticed this, I was trying to time when the Taunts would come by counting. Thus, when one was missed, I could tell right away that it was past time for it to have been applied. It was usually about a second or two after this that I would have the AV turn to me, who was in melee. now, according to my calculations above, the 5 second overlap should have had me covered on the aggro front. Even 2 * 1,000 should have beaten out 0.4875 *1,000 * Damage. But, for some reason, it wasn't.
Is this part of the threat degradation, that it's wearing off before the full Taunt duration?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Additionally (and also to Sarrate's point) while the internal documentation might have read Taunt works as a control, the fact that it actually *does* work as a control for over 99% of the scenarios in the game, kind of reinforces my point.
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Kruunch: Anytime that you're teamed with a character with taunt capabilities Taunt loses its guarantee. I'm not talking about the generic taunt mechanic, but Taunt the power. I've been the Scrapper that is holding an AV that ignores a Tanker's Taunt. I've also been the Tanker using Taunt to try to pull mobs from an Invuln Scrapper to my group. This is my experience from both sides of the fence. In these situations, it takes a liberal amount of Taunt and damage to override the Scrapper's threat.
I wouldn't consider teaming with Brutes / (Invuln, Shield, maybe WP) Scrappers to only consist of 1% of gameplay.
Now Taunt MAG I have no trouble believing it not working as described (such as BP Masks and Recluse), but Taunt duration fits the bill matches every single test I've ever done or seen done.
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her
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Kruunch: His. :P
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Has anybody done any looking into of Threat degradation? I ask because I noted some interesting things last night on the STF, mostly between the tanker and me against the AVs and stronger opponents.
Now, at level 54, the AVs will only get 39% of Taunt's duration on them. At level 50, with Taunt's base duration lasting 45 seconds, and a recycle time of 11.67 seconds, unslotted, Taunt should still be up for 5.88 seconds (probably about 5 with Arcanatime factored in) even after it cycles (so, 5 seconds of stack time).
Now, also at +4 to me, the Scrapper, and a willpower at that, my aggro aura should only have an effective time of 0.4875 seconds. Meaning that it's less than the time I would need to stack it.
Now, with those two things being what I know (assuming that neither of us had slotted for Taunt, and I know that I didn't), here's what I actually saw:
The Tanker, while Taunting at range, as long as he kept Taunting , was holding aggro well enough. However, if he missed a Taunt cycles for even a little bit, aggro quickly fell my way. After I noticed this, I was trying to time when the Taunts would come by counting. Thus, when one was missed, I could tell right away that it was past time for it to have been applied. It was usually about a second or two after this that I would have the AV turn to me, who was in melee. now, according to my calculations above, the 5 second overlap should have had me covered on the aggro front. Even 2 * 1,000 should have beaten out 0.4875 *1,000 * Damage. But, for some reason, it wasn't.
Is this part of the threat degradation, that it's wearing off before the full Taunt duration?
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Aett: Threat decay is something I haven't tested. I am, however, shocked to hear you say that you could steal aggro off the Tanker at all - very surprising. Hmm... a couple things that could explain it:
<ul type="square">[*]RttC has a debuff component, which makes RttC's threat multiplier a bit higher than usual. (I want to say it was something like TauntDuration * 1000 for debuffs, but I can't remember what value Castle gave for those, if any.)[*]Being at range makes the taunt value lower than being in melee range.[*]AI Preferences.[*]Was the Tanker doing any damage from range? That would help significantly, even if it was just Vet powers like the Nem Staff.[*]Keep in mind that your damage was being amplified by your taunt duration*1000, so duration alone wouldn't sway an AV.[*]Note: A +4 would only resist it by 48% (Purple Patch). That'd make RttC stronger, but Taunt more so.[/list]
As I said, though, threat decay is something I really don't understand.
The damage threat multiplyer is extremely low when compared to Taunt's (the power) threat level. So much so that the only occurances I've heard of Taunt's effect being overridden is at range (when the Tanker wasn't actually pounding on what he/she was taunting *and* a very high dps toon was attacking the same mob (or another Tanker)).
As far as I know threat doesn't "degrade" ... it's a matter of scaling numbers.
However this doesn't stand up when you compare two Tankers together. Whenever I've seen to Tankers Taunt (the power) the same target, the first Taunt to land goes into effect and the second Taunt only applies after the first Taunt's duration wears off. I've seen this in occurances of me beating on what I Taunted and still not pulling agro from a nearby Tanker who Taunted first even while beating on another mob.
I understand the documentation/dev's input differs from what I've just said, however that's been my experience in-game.
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Aett: Threat decay is something I haven't tested. I am, however, shocked to hear you say that you could steal aggro off the Tanker at all - very surprising. Hmm... a couple things that could explain it:
* RttC has a debuff component, which makes RttC's threat multiplier a bit higher than usual. (I want to say it was something like TauntDuration * 1000 for debuffs, but I can't remember what value Castle gave for those, if any.)
* Being at range makes the taunt value lower than being in melee range.
* AI Preferences.
* Was the Tanker doing any damage from range? That would help significantly, even if it was just Vet powers like the Nem Staff.
* Keep in mind that your damage was being amplified by your taunt duration*1000, so duration alone wouldn't sway an AV.
* Note: A +4 would only resist it by 48% (Purple Patch). That'd make RttC stronger, but Taunt more so.
As I said, though, threat decay is something I really don't understand.
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I agree. This was kind of a W-T-F moment for me. As it stood, I didn't think that it would happen. It kind of surprised me each time it did. It never lasted for long (maybe a punch headed my way, but never more than that). So it was a very short thing that was going on.
As for your bullets:
* Debuffs usually have a value of 2, from conversations with Castle a while ago. They range from 1-2, but most of them have a value of 2 (Castle couldn't, at that time, remember any that were less than 2). So that may have come into play. But TauntDuration*1000 should have been far greater than just the debuff value.
* The range thing may have also come into play. Do we know if the enemy AI adjusts based on physical distance, or the max distance of the power? Just curious on that one.
* It was Ghost Widow, and know of know special AI mods on her that make her want to take out a Scrapper.
* No, the Tanker was not attacking. It was me in melee range, him at range just taunting, and everyone else back at range doing whatever damage they could.
* As for the last two, I would think that the Tanker's Taunt duration would have still been enough to hold aggro, since his TauntDurationRemaining *1000 value would have always been higher than mine. Since his should have been above 1000, and mine decently below that (maybe around 500 max), I should have had to do a buttload of damage to get aggro.
However, maybe it was the damage, plus range, plus debuff, that got me that high on the Threat list. If I was hovering right around twice the Tanker's minimum threat on her, there may have been periods where I went over that, and stole the aggro briefly.
It shocked me as well. Hence why I brought it up. Each time it happened (it happened maybe three times over the course of a long fight that we ended up not being able to complete) it made me wonder, since I didn't think that it should be happening.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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As far as I know threat doesn't "degrade" ... it's a matter of scaling numbers.
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Well, we do know that Threat degrades. Otherwise, the person who first got it would never lose aggro, unless someone else got twice the Threat level. We can prove that another person can steal it without doing twice the threat value after a given amount of time.
However, we don't know any of the specifics on it, nor how fast the degradation occurs, nor if there is a set time before it starts to degrade, that I know of.
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However this doesn't stand up when you compare two Tankers together. Whenever I've seen to Tankers Taunt (the power) the same target, the first Taunt to land goes into effect and the second Taunt only applies after the first Taunt's duration wears off. I've seen this in occurances of me beating on what I Taunted and still not pulling agro from a nearby Tanker who Taunted first even while beating on another mob.
I understand the documentation/dev's input differs from what I've just said, however that's been my experience in-game.
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Well, I think this is more of a problem of needing twice the Threat to pull a target off of someone. Both Taunts should be applied to the target. However, the enemy is going to go with the first one until the second Tanker gets twice as much threat as the first one. That should be how it happens.
But like you've said, things tend to not work out perfectly in the game, and odd occurances do pop up.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
However this doesn't stand up when you compare two Tankers together. Whenever I've seen to Tankers Taunt (the power) the same target, the first Taunt to land goes into effect and the second Taunt only applies after the first Taunt's duration wears off. I've seen this in occurances of me beating on what I Taunted and still not pulling agro from a nearby Tanker who Taunted first even while beating on another mob.
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You need to have double the current aggro holder's threat in order to steal aggro. If the first Tanker Taunts / is in melee range before you, they'll be building up a lot of threat (from Taunt, aggro auras, AoEs, and Gauntlet depending on who it hits). Depending on how he slotted Taunt compared to you the difference could be even more extreme. (Primary and secondary would make a difference, too.)
I've engaged in 'Taunt Wars' tests with Tankers before, and this matches my experience.
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As far as I know threat doesn't "degrade" ... it's a matter of scaling numbers.
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Threat does in fact decay, that is easily demonstrable (in fact, you can generate situations where a critter's aggro will constantly flip between two players without either of the players doing anything). What nobody has been able to figure out is the formula for the decay, though.
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Well, we do know that Threat degrades. Otherwise, the person who first got it would never lose aggro, unless someone else got twice the Threat level. We can prove that another person can steal it without doing twice the threat value after a given amount of time.
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Ok I'm confused now ... do we need twice the threat to pull agro off another person or don't we? It seems that you're contradicting yourself here.
Sarrate: That doesn't match my experience with agro. When getting into a "Taunt war" I've never seen the other Tanker able to pull agro off of me until my Taunt wore off (and assumeably his Taunt at that point went into effect) and vica versa. This includes the original taunting Tanker not directly attacking the mob that the other Tanker is.
Also, with regards to threat, I've seen lower damaging toons steal agro from higher damaging ones simply because they were the last to cause the damage (seemingly) before the mob agro'd them.
What really puzzles me is when I see a Blaster steal agro from a Scrapper who is actively attacking the target AND has a taunt aura running.
This sort of leads me back to how Castle explained to me originally that there was no actual agro list in CoH.
Aett: In your particular example, since the overlap time is so short (5 seconds) could lag account for that discrepency?
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Well, we do know that Threat degrades. Otherwise, the person who first got it would never lose aggro, unless someone else got twice the Threat level. We can prove that another person can steal it without doing twice the threat value after a given amount of time.
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Ok I'm confused now ... do we need twice the threat to pull agro off another person or don't we? It seems that you're contradicting yourself here.
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Sorry, should have been clearer.
I meant that if we calculate a person's threat value from the formula, and know what it should be, I've seen people steal aggro after a certain amount of time even though their Threat isn't twice that of what the formula says the first Tanker's Treat should be. This is due to a slow decay of Threat. It still takes twice the threat to get there, it's just that this value becomes smaller over time.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Well, we do know that Threat degrades. Otherwise, the person who first got it would never lose aggro, unless someone else got twice the Threat level. We can prove that another person can steal it without doing twice the threat value after a given amount of time.
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Ok I'm confused now ... do we need twice the threat to pull agro off another person or don't we? It seems that you're contradicting yourself here.
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What Aett means is something like the following scenario:
Player A generates X threat.
Player B waits T seconds (for some reasonably high value of T).
Player B generates less than 2*X threat.
Player B gets aggro.
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Aett: In your particular example, since the overlap time is so short (5 seconds) could lag account for that discrepency?
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It could, but I wasn't getting any lag on my end. There may have been some server lag going on that was leading to values being smaller than they should have been (or bigger). I won't discount it, but the game was running pretty smoothly for me, with no other indication of lag going on.
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Also, with regards to threat, I've seen lower damaging toons steal agro from higher damaging ones simply because they were the last to cause the damage (seemingly) before the mob agro'd them.
What really puzzles me is when I see a Blaster steal agro from a Scrapper who is actively attacking the target AND has a taunt aura running.
This sort of leads me back to how Castle explained to me originally that there was no actual agro list in CoH.
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The first may be more due to Threat decay. Remember that without the TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000 value, Threat values for other ATs can be relatively low. If there is decay going on, it may be fast enough to see what you're seeing. Also remember that Debuffs can affect it. Basically, a character that deals 100 damage and has a debuff on the attack can cause twice the Threat that a similar attack without a debuff can.
So, a 50 damage attack with a debuff can cause as much threat as a 100 damage normal attack. It can also be a range factor. Then there's the AT Mod on top of that.
There are a lot of factors that we don't know about Threat. AI Mod and RangeMod are two of the big ones. That is why, when talking about theoretical Threat values, we usually assume that those two values are the same for both characters. In game, they may not be. It throws a lot of our theoretical values on the forums off. In fact, the only AI mod info that we know of is that there's no Mob out there that has a "kill the healer" AI mod on it (though the Devs could create one). The AI Mod in the Threat formula for a particular Mob could tell it to rate Controllers as a higher threat than Scrappers. We don't know.
Very, very rarely do the formulas that we use to determine relative Threat on the forums work out in game. The one case where we're usually right is in the case of Tankers with aggro auras or Taunt, since the TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000 value tends to be so high as to negate pretty much everything else in the formula.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Really? Because my MA/WP scrapper was stealing aggro from an Invuln Tank against AVs in the STF just last night. Mostly due to damage. Granted, the Tanker was relying on his aggro aura. But just his Taunt value alone, on the aggro aura, should have been enough to hold the aggro. It wasn't. My damage was much higher, so I ended up stealing the aggro.
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Taunt auras vs. AVs are generally a gamble, because they not only require a to-hit check, but a massively penalized to-hit check. Invincibility vs. a level 54 AV has a 19% chance to hit (39% base, -20% penalty) and a 8.1 second duration. If Invincibility was inactive at the same time (or had little duration left) where your RttC was actually hitting, then aggro could have easily switched.
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I should point out that Lord Recluse has those exact same properties, although it's been demonstrated you can keep him taunted, but he is a lot squirrelier than most. (Granted the Tanker normally has 5-10 minutes of time to do nothing but Taunt.) Either that, or the MAG isn't working quite as Castle described to us.
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Devouring Earth Fungi also provide the same effects to all DE within range, with no observable adverse effects on tauntability.
I suspect that Banished Pantheon masks have their aggro-ignoring behavior mostly because of their AI (we recall that threat in CoX is an advisory mechanic, the AI can be told to pick its targets based on different criteria).
So, what is Taunt magnitude good for? I have an (unproven, purely conjectural) hypothesis here. Namely that Taunt magnitude either adds to or replaces the AT multiplier (in the latter case, only if it's equal or higher). I'm basing this conjecture mostly on the fact that Tanker, Scrapper, and Brute taunt auras have a magnitude that happens to coincide with the respective AT multipliers (except for RttC for tankers and brutes, which we know to be intentionally weak). This would have some interesting consequences, of course (such as there being a benefit to stacking Gauntlet or Taunt on top of an aggro aura).
Yes, we know that Castle actually said something different about how taunt magnitude works. But since taunt magnitude does not appear to quite work the way he describes it (or at least that there are other factors that come into play), I'm currently speculating as to what it actually does, and so I'm trying to construct alternate hypotheses that one could test.
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Really? Because my MA/WP scrapper was stealing aggro from an Invuln Tank against AVs in the STF just last night. Mostly due to damage. Granted, the Tanker was relying on his aggro aura. But just his Taunt value alone, on the aggro aura, should have been enough to hold the aggro. It wasn't. My damage was much higher, so I ended up stealing the aggro.
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Taunt auras vs. AVs are generally a gamble, because they not only require a to-hit check, but a massively penalized to-hit check. Invincibility vs. a level 54 AV has a 19% chance to hit (39% base, -20% penalty) and a 8.1 second duration. If Invincibility was inactive at the same time (or had little duration left) where your RttC was actually hitting, then aggro could have easily switched.
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Taunt Aura or no Taunt Aura, If the tanker is attacking and taunting (the power not the affect), it should be impossible the scrapper to pull aggro. Never mind that RttC is a fairly week taunt aura, Taunt the power + taunt the affect (via guantlet) from attacks + damage out put should keep the Tankers threat level way above the scrappers? Or is Aett talking about an AV the Tanker is not attacking?
This brings up another question. If a tanker is fighting 4 AVs (think STF), do the Guantlet taunts have a to hit check? In other words, does successfully hitting your target guarantee the gauntlet hit the other AVs (assuming they are in range)?
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aunt Aura or no Taunt Aura, If the tanker is attacking and taunting (the power not the affect), it should be impossible the scrapper to pull aggro. Never mind that RttC is a fairly week taunt aura, Taunt the power + taunt the affect (via guantlet) from attacks + damage out put should keep the Tankers threat level way above the scrappers? Or is Aett talking about an AV the Tanker is not attacking?
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Aett was talking about a tanker who wasn't using Taunt (the power). Gauntlet and the taunt-effect from attacking, like aggro auras, has a -20% to-hit penalty vs. AVs. In other words, you can hit an AV with an attack and still not apply a taunt effect.
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This brings up another question. If a tanker is fighting 4 AVs (think STF), do the Guantlet taunts have a to hit check? In other words, does successfully hitting your target guarantee the gauntlet hit the other AVs (assuming they are in range)?
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No, it does not. It has to hit with a -20% penalty. As far as I know, even against normal critters there's a to-hit check for Gauntlet (though one that isn't penalized).
Not sure I am understanding what the "detailed info" info screen is telling me in game.
On a level 17 WP/BA tanker I place one level 20 IO into Taunt the power. If I hover over taunt, it shows 25.6% enhancement for increase in taunt duration from 26.8 seconds to 33.66 seconds. This part I understand.
When I look at the detailed info screen, the duration is unchanged at 26.8 seconds but the Magnitude increased from 400% to 502.4%. This part does not make sense to me.
Is this an error on the "detailed info" screen or is there an aspect of the mechanic I am not understanding?