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Will additional accuracy enhancement affect this?
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I suspect that they would (though I'm not certain -- for all I know it may be that the penalty is applied after min(to-hit-chance, .95) is calculated, not before). However, the easiest and most reliable solution is still to simply use Taunt vs. AVs.
Hrmm... what about Gauntlet (the aoe, not the st portion) against normal mobs? As I understand it, all the attacks powers are set as AoEs with varying radii, then all the effects in the attack are set to have a max radius of 0 (making them st) except for the taunt (which has no flags as ignoring the tohit check).
So, if a player attacks Mob A and hits, would Gauntlet have to check Mob B to see if it hits? If yes, then Gauntlet is a bigger pile than I originally thought it was. :P
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So, if a player attacks Mob A and hits, would Gauntlet have to check Mob B to see if it hits? If yes, then Gauntlet is a bigger pile than I originally thought it was. :P
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That is what I believe is currently the case. Mind you, I might be wrong -- this is not exactly trivial to test, and I may have made a mistake in the testing setup (plus, it's been close to a year, I think, since I've last tested Gauntlet, which doesn't make my memory any more reliable).
(Solo testing setup: Turn off your aggro aura and go to a zone with critters that are sufficiently below you in level so that they don't aggro from proximity, but high enough so that they don't immediately run away after they miss the first time. Grab a spawn of 4+ critters, eliminate all but 4. Pull that spawn over to the vicinity of another spawn. Make sure that all four of the initial critters are closer to you than the other spawn. Use an attack with a high Gauntlet radius, but low enough so that it doesn't outright defeat the critter. See if the other spawn aggroed. If it didn't, then Gauntlet just missed. Since they are below you, expect to repeat this at least a couple dozen times to see the first miss. Then repeat it often enough to make sure it's reproducible. If you have a duo partner, then much simpler setups are possible, of course.)
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Will additional accuracy enhancement affect this?
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I suspect that they would (though I'm not certain -- for all I know it may be that the penalty is applied after min(to-hit-chance, .95) is calculated, not before). However, the easiest and most reliable solution is still to simply use Taunt vs. AVs.
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I don't believe the Gauntlet effect is enhanceable. I have a crazy amount of +acc and global accuracy and I see Gauntlet not work quite a bit.
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I don't believe the Gauntlet effect is enhanceable. I have a crazy amount of +acc and global accuracy and I see Gauntlet not work quite a bit.
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That is not very comforting.
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If I remember correctly, the original Gauntlet worked exactly like Taunt and when PvP was released made Tankers totally overpowered because anytime you hit something everyone (enemies) in the vacinity would be locked on to you for XXX duration.
This was when the general rules for Taunt and taunt like effects were changed for PvP and Gauntlet got side swiped in the process. The reasoning was that Gauntlet should work *in general* when the Tanker was continually pounding away in the midst of a bunch of enemies and in this sense their reasoning panned out.
**EDIT* I'd be willing to bet that this is when Taunt and taunt like effects got changed in CoH from a control-like effect to a high threat meter type of effect as explained by Castle. Chances are one of the devs at the time (Geko?) threw in a hot fix to adjust taunt effects so that players had a high native resistance to them (the first time players needed to be able to resist taunt effects) and this fix changed the mechanic by which taunt effects previously worked. Shortly afterwards, people started noticing taunt effects behaving a little differently under extreme circumstances, and thus Castle's post (who may not have been aware of the hot fix which very likely wasn't documented). Just a hunch but I believe the timing is right.
Gauntlet is a great addition to a Tanker's agro management as are taunt auras but neither can be relied upon reasonably as the sole means of managing agro. In combination, these effects sincerely mitigate the need for the ability Taunt, which is still useful for helping team mates at range.
Sarrate: regarding your earlier posts about Scrappers pulling agro off of their Tankers and maintaining that agro ... I've run with some of the most damaging built Scrappers and Blasters in the game (both in AT combos and specifically built toons) and I have *never once* had agro pulled off of me where I was actively looking to keep agro.
In my estimation, most Tankers who do get agro pulled are usually guilty of relying on taunt auras (which can be easily pulled away from) and punchvoke (which is unreliable at best) and/or having mistimed a Taunt (i.e. forgot to cycle it into their chain).
Also regarding Banished Pantheon (masks): I have yet to see a mask that didn't immediately turn to me when I Taunted it. As I said, I've seen the duration become much lower then normal, but I've never had a mask ignore a Taunt. Having said that, I haven't actually done comparison tests, but I think I'd remember if something ignored a Taunt.
As I've said before, the only time I've seen my Taunt ignored is when another Tanker has landed his/her Taunt first.
Now this may not be the case or the formula for 100% of the mobs in the game and my own subjective reasoning/observations certainly can be faulty but over the course of 5 years (off and on) and through 14 different Tankers I have yet to see Taunt not physically work as I've stipulated.
According to Castle (in the link you provided the last time we discussed this) Castle gave an example condition of where Taunt (the power) could be overidden. The condition (if memory serves) was something like a Blaster doing his/her whole chain ending with their large nuke, while the Tanker tried to Taunt at range (outside of the radius of the Tanker's taunt aura and Gauntlet effects).
The only other time I've seen Taunt work haphazardly is when fighting Giant Monsters and I usually attributed that to being in a large scrum where another Tanker may be Taunting as well (but I've never actually run tests to prove one way or the other).
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So, if a player attacks Mob A and hits, would Gauntlet have to check Mob B to see if it hits? If yes, then Gauntlet is a bigger pile than I originally thought it was. :P
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That is what I believe is currently the case. Mind you, I might be wrong -- this is not exactly trivial to test, and I may have made a mistake in the testing setup (plus, it's been close to a year, I think, since I've last tested Gauntlet, which doesn't make my memory any more reliable).
(Solo testing setup: Turn off your aggro aura and go to a zone with critters that are sufficiently below you in level so that they don't aggro from proximity, but high enough so that they don't immediately run away after they miss the first time. Grab a spawn of 4+ critters, eliminate all but 4. Pull that spawn over to the vicinity of another spawn. Make sure that all four of the initial critters are closer to you than the other spawn. Use an attack with a high Gauntlet radius, but low enough so that it doesn't outright defeat the critter. See if the other spawn aggroed. If it didn't, then Gauntlet just missed. Since they are below you, expect to repeat this at least a couple dozen times to see the first miss. Then repeat it often enough to make sure it's reproducible. If you have a duo partner, then much simpler setups are possible, of course.)
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Yes this is the case. Gauntlet checks "toHit" with each mob in its area of effect.
See post above for reasoning and changes behind Gauntlet.
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Sarrate: regarding your earlier posts about Scrappers pulling agro off of their Tankers and maintaining that agro ... I've run with some of the most damaging built Scrappers and Blasters in the game (both in AT combos and specifically built toons) and I have *never once* had agro pulled off of me where I was actively looking to keep agro.
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Which is why I specified Invuln, Shield, and possibly WP Scrapper - all of them have taunt auras. Damage alone (unless there is some weird AI preference going on) isn't enough to override Taunt. Taunting off a taunt aura Scrapper or Brute is a completely different story.
I've seen a Spines/Invuln have aggro that took 1-2 taunts and AoEs to out threat. That is a very well slotted (5 Perfect Zinger) Taunt (~80s duration, ~5s recharge), I might add - strong enough to keep the attention of all four Patron AVs stuck to me like glue though a 30s Black Hole when combined with my AOEs. I've seen the exact same thing when duoing with a DM/Fire Brute in Cimerora. (I'd let him share part of the aggro to get his Fury up, then work to steal it back when he got into trouble. He wasn't Taunting, just using Blazing Aura.)
Taunt is not a 100% override; it's a threat multiplier Tankers have to weave in with attacks to maximize their threat generation.
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I'd be willing to bet that this is when Taunt and taunt like effects got changed in CoH from a control-like effect to a high threat meter type of effect as explained by Castle
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My guess is that it was always a threat multiplier, just that the internal docs were wrong from the beginning. Heck, old school Hamidon raids used to be griefed by the non-designated Tank Taunting with the hold team. Taunt + close range + dmg yields higher threat than Taunt alone from range - despite the fact the Tank had been Taunting him for the entire raid. (This was actually generating theories that Taunt had diminishing returns or something - it just wasn't working as it should have.)
I agree with you on everything except the diminishing returns. I suspect it may have more to do with proximity.
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I agree with you on everything except the diminishing returns. I suspect it may have more to do with proximity.
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Well, I said people theorized diminishing returns (this was back in the I4-5ish days). It was long before the threat multiplier explanation was given. People just knew it wasn't working as an easy on/off switch, but couldn't figure anything out beyond that.
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Sarrate: regarding your earlier posts about Scrappers pulling agro off of their Tankers and maintaining that agro ... I've run with some of the most damaging built Scrappers and Blasters in the game (both in AT combos and specifically built toons) and I have *never once* had agro pulled off of me where I was actively looking to keep agro.
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Which is why I specified Invuln, Shield, and possibly WP Scrapper - all of them have taunt auras. Damage alone (unless there is some weird AI preference going on) isn't enough to override Taunt. Taunting off a taunt aura Scrapper or Brute is a completely different story.
I've seen a Spines/Invuln have aggro that took 1-2 taunts and AoEs to out threat. That is a very well slotted (5 Perfect Zinger) Taunt (~80s duration, ~5s recharge), I might add - strong enough to keep the attention of all four Patron AVs stuck to me like glue though a 30s Black Hole when combined with my AOEs. I've seen the exact same thing when duoing with a DM/Fire Brute in Cimerora. (I'd let him share part of the aggro to get his Fury up, then work to steal it back when he got into trouble. He wasn't Taunting, just using Blazing Aura.)
Taunt is not a 100% override; it's a threat multiplier Tankers have to weave in with attacks to maximize their threat generation.
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I'd be willing to bet that this is when Taunt and taunt like effects got changed in CoH from a control-like effect to a high threat meter type of effect as explained by Castle
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My guess is that it was always a threat multiplier, just that the internal docs were wrong from the beginning. Heck, old school Hamidon raids used to be griefed by the non-designated Tank Taunting with the hold team. Taunt + close range + dmg yields higher threat than Taunt alone from range - despite the fact the Tank had been Taunting him for the entire raid. (This was actually generating theories that Taunt had diminishing returns or something - it just wasn't working as it should have.)
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We must be playing different games then ... I run with two Shields Scrappers every night and I've never *ever* had a Taunt ignored in favor of their agro (and this is even on SK'd tank projects of mine that are doing piddly damage).
Conversely I have a really well built Spines/Fire Scrapper that only pulls agro if the Tanker forgets to Taunt (and more times then not, auras and punchvoke are enough to hold agro from me). As an AOE based Scrapper I also know to fight stuck to the Tanker's butt. I'd be willing to bet your examples are of Scrappers fighting at the fringes in which case, Castle's post applies.
As far as when the misdocumentation vs. misconception on the dev's part occurred .... shrug. It's only an educated guess. However I've never heard of Tankers remotely having agro issues before PvP was implemented. In fact, auras and punchvoke worked to such an extent that Taunt (or Provoke going back far enough) were considered to be a waste of a power by and large.
Fair enough. Sorry about that.
Based on what's been said, I'm leaning towards taunt( the auto hit power and successful to-hit rolls,and successful gauntlet applications) being a tag+multiplier variable which is used against damaged done on a target mob. It would help explain why at times a player other than a tank will continue to be targeted by a mob after taunts and within taunt aura range.
Edit: If one of those scrappers was mine, I HAVE pulled off of you if I was ST'ing a mob and land a headsplitter crit. I just didn't have the heart to tell ya 
<QR>
Gauntlet
City of Data shows that Gauntlet only has the -20% tohit on raid mobs, such as Hami:
Power: Clobber
* +13.5s Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20%
* +13.5s Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not Raid mob (like Hami)
Haven't tested this personally.
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The Tanker, while Taunting at range, as long as he kept Taunting , was holding aggro well enough. However, if he missed a Taunt cycles for even a little bit, aggro quickly fell my way. After I noticed this, I was trying to time when the Taunts would come by counting. Thus, when one was missed, I could tell right away that it was past time for it to have been applied. It was usually about a second or two after this that I would have the AV turn to me, who was in melee. now, according to my calculations above, the 5 second overlap should have had me covered on the aggro front. Even 2 * 1,000 should have beaten out 0.4875 *1,000 * Damage. But, for some reason, it wasn't.
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I guess it might be a combination of the tanker taunting from range, and the duration on his taunt winding down (modified by the AV's resistance).
Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)
Does this mean that threat is recalculated at certain intervals, like every tenth of a second or something?
Still seems strange that you'd be able to pull aggro... although I have no idea how strongly the Range Mod can affect threat levels.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
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Edit: If one of those scrappers was mine, I HAVE pulled off of you if I was ST'ing a mob and land a headsplitter crit. I just didn't have the heart to tell ya
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Yes one of those Scrappers is yours and I just didn't taunt because its fun to watch you go SPLAT.
And I take great joy in telling you 
P.S. - You've never pulled agro off a Taunt (vs taunt aura / gauntlet) of mine. Although (and sorry to ding your man hood) I rarely have to Taunt off you, auras and gauntlet usually being enough.
Then again you also know how to play a Scrapper and aren't soloing 5 blocks away blathering about having agro.
That's just scrappering as a whole. It helped when I reread the duration difference between AAO and RttC. Holy crap that was making me go splat more times than a virgin at a peep show.
I'd be willing to test, it may have been that I targeted a mob outside of the aggro cap but I don't want to make excuses because I've seen this with other tanks.
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In my estimation, most Tankers who do get agro pulled are usually guilty of relying on taunt auras (which can be easily pulled away from)
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Aside from AVs, that's really a mischaracterization of taunt auras. You don't pull "easily away" from something that has a taunt effect on it, whether it comes from Taunt, auras, or Gauntlet. That 1000 * Taunt Duration multiplier is really, really hard to beat unless whoever is pulling aggro has a taunt multiplier of their own (usually scrappers or brutes with taunt auras). Even if you park a regular critter next to a Willpower tanker who doesn't do anything but let RttC tick (the weakest taunt aura in all of CoH), it is practically impossible to pull aggro with just damage.
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In my estimation, most Tankers who do get agro pulled are usually guilty of relying on taunt auras (which can be easily pulled away from)
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Aside from AVs, that's really a mischaracterization of taunt auras. You don't pull "easily away" from something that has a taunt effect on it, whether it comes from Taunt, auras, or Gauntlet. That 1000 * Taunt Duration multiplier is really, really hard to beat unless whoever is pulling aggro has a taunt multiplier of their own (usually scrappers or brutes with taunt auras). Even if you park a regular critter next to a Willpower tanker who doesn't do anything but let RttC tick (the weakest taunt aura in all of CoH), it is practically impossible to pull aggro with just damage.
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Totally TOTALLY untrue. Unbelievably untrue.
Do you actually play a Tanker? Try taking any of them, using only a taunt aura and not attacking and see how long you hold agro.
Not to mention that the taunt mag, taunt duration and general area of effect are MUCH different from Taunt to taunt auras.
I sincerely can't see how you could possibly say that's a mischaracterization.
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In my estimation, most Tankers who do get agro pulled are usually guilty of relying on taunt auras (which can be easily pulled away from)
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Aside from AVs, that's really a mischaracterization of taunt auras. You don't pull "easily away" from something that has a taunt effect on it, whether it comes from Taunt, auras, or Gauntlet. That 1000 * Taunt Duration multiplier is really, really hard to beat unless whoever is pulling aggro has a taunt multiplier of their own (usually scrappers or brutes with taunt auras). Even if you park a regular critter next to a Willpower tanker who doesn't do anything but let RttC tick (the weakest taunt aura in all of CoH), it is practically impossible to pull aggro with just damage.
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Totally TOTALLY untrue. Unbelievably untrue.
Do you actually play a Tanker? Try taking any of them, using only a taunt aura and not attacking and see how long you hold agro.
Not to mention that the taunt mag, taunt duration and general area of effect are MUCH different from Taunt to taunt auras.
I sincerely can't see how you could possibly say that's a mischaracterization.
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Other than Willpower, I'd agree with the statement that it's very difficult to pull Agro from a Taunt aura. I often run Tanks who seldom attack and I'm often throwing Taunt out at folks well away from me (to keep their attention focused on me, since they are outside my Taunt aura). And with the exception of when someone else with a Taunt effect is in the area, I almost never loose Agro of those near me.
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Do you actually play a Tanker? Try taking any of them, using only a taunt aura and not attacking and see how long you hold agro.
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I not only play tankers, I have done a lot of controlled tests of taunt mechanics with them. Specifically including the one case discussed in my previous post.
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Not to mention that the taunt mag, taunt duration and general area of effect are MUCH different from Taunt to taunt auras.
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The taunt magnitude of most tanker taunt auras (except RttC) is actually precisely the same as that of the various Taunt powers in tanker secondaries (mag 4). If you slot Invincibility or Against all Odds with three taunt duration SOs, then at level 50, the taunt duration will actually be longer than that of the unenhanced Taunt in Dark Melee and Dual Blades. The area of effect of Taunt is inconsequential for its strength, obviously.
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I sincerely can't see how you could possibly say that's a mischaracterization.
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Because I've actually performed controlled experiments regarding the mechanics of taunt effects and don't just make unsupported anecdotal claims like you tend to do.
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If you slot Invincibility or Against all Odds with three taunt duration SOs, then at level 50, the taunt duration will actually be longer than that of the unenhanced Taunt in Dark Melee and Dual Blades
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*blink*
That has to be a bug.
Other oddities:
DB/Taunt's PvP duration is shorter than usual.
DM/Taunt's attack flag is Range instead of AoE.
I also agree with you about the strength of taunt auras. They're pretty much impossible to override with straight damage.
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*blink*
That has to be a bug.
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It's quite possible that it is (it might be, for example, that Dual Blades and Dark Melee both got the scrapper Taunt scale instead of the tanker Taunt scale by accident).
It may also be that Castle wants to reduce taunt duration long term, but has left existing Taunt durations untouched (grandfathering them, so to speak).
I don't know which it is, of course -- I can only speculate. But right now, Dark Melee and Dual Blades Taunt do have a 25% shorter duration than other tanker Taunt powers.
But I am pretty sure that Invincibility and Against all Odds got higher 25% longer taunt duration than other aggro auras for a reason (I'd assume it is to compensate for the fact they don't do any damage).
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Do you actually play a Tanker? Try taking any of them, using only a taunt aura and not attacking and see how long you hold agro.
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I not only play tankers, I have done a lot of controlled tests of taunt mechanics with them. Specifically including the one case discussed in my previous post.
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Not to mention that the taunt mag, taunt duration and general area of effect are MUCH different from Taunt to taunt auras.
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The taunt magnitude of most tanker taunt auras (except RttC) is actually precisely the same as that of the various Taunt powers in tanker secondaries (mag 4). If you slot Invincibility or Against all Odds with three taunt duration SOs, then at level 50, the taunt duration will actually be longer than that of the unenhanced Taunt in Dark Melee and Dual Blades. The area of effect of Taunt is inconsequential for its strength, obviously.
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I sincerely can't see how you could possibly say that's a mischaracterization.
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Because I've actually performed controlled experiments regarding the mechanics of taunt effects and don't just make unsupported anecdotal claims like you tend to do.
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I think you need to retest then Herr Professor because you are way off base.
And a taunt aura radius versus the range of Taunt is hugely important as you will usually not be able to fit more then 6-7 mobs in the range of a taunt aura (which incidentally is not much broader then melee range).
Less testing and more questing 
To the poster above you: seldom attacking and never attacking are far and away two different things here. Taunt Aura + Gauntlet effect will allow you to control agro very well in melee range. Taunt auras by themselves will not.
If you doubt this, try running a full group just using a taunt aura and no attacks and see how many deaths you pile up (no cheating and bringing extra Tankers and/or Controllers )
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I think you need to retest then Herr Professor because you are way off base.
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It is Frau Professor, thank you very much (not that I actually have a tenure track position, of course).
The thing is, if you wish to assert that damage can out-aggro a taunt aura (which you claimed is possible), then you should be able to point out a controlled experiment that can validate this claim of yours. Right now, given that everybody but you thinks that aggro auras DO provide solid aggro vs. damage, you may want to take a step back and re-evaluate your assumptions.
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And a taunt aura radius versus the range of Taunt is hugely important as you will usually not be able to fit more then 6-7 mobs in the range of a taunt aura (which incidentally is not much broader then melee range).
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Absolutely. This doesn't say a thing about the strength of the taunt aura and how it matches up against damage, though; it's only important for how you can cover all critters in a spawn with taunt effects. (And for practical purposes, all tankers but Willpower can of course also employ movement to get aggro on more critters.)
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I think you need to retest then Herr Professor because you are way off base.
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It is Frau Professor, thank you very much (not that I actually have a tenure track position, of course).
The thing is, if you wish to assert that damage can out-aggro a taunt aura (which you claimed is possible), then you should be able to point out a controlled experiment that can validate this claim of yours. Right now, given that everybody but you thinks that aggro auras DO provide solid aggro vs. damage, you may want to take a step back and re-evaluate your assumptions.
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Most people don't play this game in a labratory and most Tankers don't really give much more thought to their taunt aura then they do the color of the underwear they're wearing.
If you were a *real* Tanker playing with a *real* group of people (not a controlled experimental setting (seriously?)) you would know that taunt auras by themselves do not hold agro well enough. You would also know that taunt auras *and* punchvoke will take care of 90% of your agro concerns, with another 9% being reserved for Taunt. The other 1% I'd put down to the actual skill of the player (that's how simplistic playing this game is ... especially at the higher levels).
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And a taunt aura radius versus the range of Taunt is hugely important as you will usually not be able to fit more then 6-7 mobs in the range of a taunt aura (which incidentally is not much broader then melee range).
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Absolutely. This doesn't say a thing about the strength of the taunt aura and how it matches up against damage, though; it's only important for how you can cover all critters in a spawn with taunt effects. (And for practical purposes, all tankers but Willpower can of course also employ movement to get aggro on more critters.)
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Oddly enough I play an L50 WP Tanker who moves around just fine. Has the weakest taunt aura in the game, has only one AOE and keeps agro just fine with room to spare.
In other news, water is wet.
Good luck with your "experiments".
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No, it does not. It has to hit with a -20% penalty. As far as I know, even against normal critters there's a to-hit check for Gauntlet (though one that isn't penalized).
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Will additional accuracy enhancement affect this?