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If you were a *real* Tanker playing with a *real* group of people (not a controlled experimental setting (seriously?)) you would know that taunt auras by themselves do not hold agro well enough.
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In simple terms: you are wrong, unless the taunt aura is Willpower's.
OR if the tanker decides to stand still and not follow the critters.
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If you were a *real* Tanker playing with a *real* group of people (not a controlled experimental setting (seriously?)) you would know that taunt auras by themselves do not hold agro well enough.
[/ QUOTE ]
In simple terms: you are wrong, unless the taunt aura is Willpower's.
OR if the tanker decides to stand still and not follow the critters.
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If the taunt aura worked as you say, then why would you have to follow the critter?
You know, you got to... well.. go there to the critter to, well... have that melee range aura hit them in the first place?
Not everyone will be within reach just because the tanker jumped in the center of the spawn and posed pretty. The things have 8ft radius not 50ft.
Not to mention things like Stuns and KB effects that can scatter a group.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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This was more pointed at Sorciere who has claimed to have done extensive tests of the agro mechanic as a Tanker, which would have to include knowing about how Gauntlet worked to be somewhat accurate in those conclusions.
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Huh? What on earth are you talking about? You now claim that I didn't know about Gauntlet requiring a to-hit check, when only a couple of pages ago I was the one pointing out that in my recollection it DID require a to-hit check.
Get your story straight.
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Sorciere replying to Sarrate said:
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So, if a player attacks Mob A and hits, would Gauntlet have to check Mob B to see if it hits? If yes, then Gauntlet is a bigger pile than I originally thought it was. :P
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That is what I believe is currently the case. Mind you, I might be wrong -- this is not exactly trivial to test, and I may have made a mistake in the testing setup (plus, it's been close to a year, I think, since I've last tested Gauntlet, which doesn't make my memory any more reliable).
(Solo testing setup: Turn off your aggro aura and go to a zone with critters that are sufficiently below you in level so that they don't aggro from proximity, but high enough so that they don't immediately run away after they miss the first time. Grab a spawn of 4+ critters, eliminate all but 4. Pull that spawn over to the vicinity of another spawn. Make sure that all four of the initial critters are closer to you than the other spawn. Use an attack with a high Gauntlet radius, but low enough so that it doesn't outright defeat the critter. See if the other spawn aggroed. If it didn't, then Gauntlet just missed. Since they are below you, expect to repeat this at least a couple dozen times to see the first miss. Then repeat it often enough to make sure it's reproducible. If you have a duo partner, then much simpler setups are possible, of course.)
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This implies that you do not understand how Gauntlet works precisely. The fact that you are unaware that the accuracy of Gauntlet is not enhanceable and the fact the you aren't sure whether it does indeed need a toHit check per mob it attempts to effect leads me to question your "tests" and your general knowledge of agro in terms of how it applies to Tankers versus my knowledge through what I've experienced in game playing with normal groups.
Straight enough?
You know how I found out about Gauntlet? I was playing the game with a friend on a low level Tanker (pre-taunt aura) and punched one of three mobs that had been AOE'd by my Blaster buddy. One of the mobs I didn't punch turned around (the one I did punch didn't). We both thought that was funny as heck and then proceeded to reproduce the effect fairly consistantly right on up through L50 (the joke was "how often can Gauntlet get my buddy killed).
This is as of last month.
So much for dedicated experiments. 
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This implies that you do not understand how Gauntlet works precisely. The fact that you are unaware that the accuracy of Gauntlet is not enhanceable and the fact the you aren't sure whether it does indeed need a toHit check per mob it attempts to effect leads me to question your "tests" and your general knowledge of agro in terms of how it applies to Tankers versus my knowledge through what I've experienced in game playing with normal groups.
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The fact that you think Gauntlet's accuracy is not enhanceable leads me to question anything you say about what you think is right, however you do are right in that Gauntlet does need a to-hit check.
As for the enhanceable bit: A power is either entirely enhanceable for accuracy or it's not. All melee attacks in tankers are AoE and they have their respective accuracy values that is enhanceable. This applies to the gauntlet attribute and any other attribute.
As a rule of thumb: anything that is on the base activation trait of the power (if you go to city of data this would be the [More Detail] box) exists in only one form and not independent for each trait.
Now, a power attribute can actually be set to do one of two things that make it's accuracy behave different from the overal power:
<ul type="square">[*]It can override auto hit traits[*]It can self-impose a tohit debuff[/list]
The later just means the to-hit of the trait would always be behind the to-hit of normal effects but it still is enhanceable.
All tanker gauntlet taunt traits suffer such a penalty, they have a -20 To Hit De Buff but only against AVs and other "raid" targets, but the base is enhanceable. Taunt The Power does not suffer this penalty, its auto hit on all situations (outside of PvP.)
As an example, lets say you have an attack that has a base 75% tohit, well, gauntlet there will have a 55% chance to hit. Somehow enhance the thing to take you to 120% tohit (soft capped at 95%) and your taunt will have a 100% chance to hit (soft capped to 95%) but this is only against AVs/Giant Monsters/Hami/etc
The cases for the auto-hit override are rare but can be seen in Mud Pots damage component. You will notice the last 3 lines state:
<ul type="square">[*] 0.18 Fire damage Not auto-hit [*] 1.00000 Melee_InherentTaunts Taunt (mag 4) Raid mob (like Hami), Must hit at -20% [*] 1.00000 Melee_InherentTaunts Taunt (mag 4) PvE only, not a Raid mob (like Hami) [/list]
You will noitice that in this power, the last taunt trait affects any foe with the power normal accuracy rules (in the case of Mud Pots, it's auto-hit.)
Also, mud pots is one of those rare auto-hit powers that accepts accuracy enhancements precisely for those traits that are flagged to override the auto hit nature.
Now, there is one gimmicky way the devs could make the accuracy of gauntlet independently non-enhanceable but it would be darn messy. It would require that you just hit the foe and summon a taunting pet, the taunting pet can transfer aggro to it's master once it poofs but if set to ignore accuracy it would result in "unenhanceable" gauntlet.
Straight enough? 
Edit to add:
Note that Sorciere said: That is what I believe is currently the case.
Sorciere did not claim not to know, she just happens to be a player that despite knowing the theory does not believes it until tested. The reason you happen to know is because you did a test yourself. Not one highly controlled and with high margin of error but one that managed to prove the requirement of to-hits for taunt. Additionally you been criticizing her for something you did after seeing an oddity, don't you think that's rather hypocrite?
Per usual I didn't read Starman's babbling, but I have to say that I am impressed he constrained himself to two sets of bullet points and no graphs.
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Per usual I didn't read Starman's babbling, but I have to say that I am impressed he constrained himself to two sets of bullet points and no graphs.
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Hey, i have not babbled even half as bad as you have through this thread
But you should read the thing if you don't want to look like a fool correcting people on things you are wrong about 
But who am I kidding, we both know you read it.
You know what I love?, how people can throw all the theories and numbers and dev worship, but when asked for a vid, everyone gets flakey. Half of you just wanna post just to post. Your not helping anyone with your OPINION. Honestly do people play the game anymore?. Castle needs to come in here and stop lying to you guys. This whole "devs are infallible thing has run its course". Stop with the dev love, they make mistakes, blindly reciting what a dev posted is DoDo like behavior. There that was my scientific analogy. It ain't impetus, then again im happy it isnt.
Can someone show me a vid of perfect aura taunting? One vid. Get a blaster or scrapper and ask them to go nuts on a target, no taunt just aura. And then lets see if Gauntlet kicks in. You cant look smart if all your posting are smiley's and what YOU believe to be true. Am I the only objective one here?
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
No, nobody plays the game anymore. Everyone who has a higher post count than someone else never plays the game.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
Videos
I made two videos. They aren't the most scientific things in the world, but I think they suit our purposes well enough. I took my old shelved Level 50 namesake into the back corner of RWZ. I was accompanied by a friend on his 50 Elec/Elec blaster. Using only Mud Pots, I rounded up a group (usually around a corner) and let the blaster cut loose on them. For this, Mud Pots was slotted only with 2xEndredux. I used no other powers other than Granite.
Video 1
Group of level 51 Rikti. Corner pulled, then unleashed the blaster. The blaster pulled a couple mobs, but I think they may have been out of range of my taunt aura. The group got pretty large when the Comms officer started summoning. Although he nabbed a couple away, I was able to take them back by moving within range.
Video 2
Almost identical results to video 1, except here we had level 53 Rikti. Held aggro well, lost a couple due to range issues, and was able to re-establish aggro through the blaster's attacks. (Oh, and have mercy on my Stone Tank... I wasn't paying attention to his health, and he's currently a tad underslotted defensively.)
There was a third group, but I forgot to turn on the recorder. 
That was a group of level 52 Rikti, and I did not lose aggro on a single critter throughout the fight.
Well, that's about the only evidence I have, since it's my only lvl50 tanker, and finding volunteers for something so boring is difficult. It wasn't purdy, I ain't teh uber, but there it is. 
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
Seriously, why don't you or Kruunch provide a video from your side, if you think that you can shut us up. Why is it that the burden of proof is on us?
You could just as easily get a video as us. Why don't you get one?
Me, I post at work, and am going camping starting tomorrow at 2 pm. I'd grab you a video if I could, but won't be able to until Sunday or Monday. Provide me with a video before then, and I'll see what I can do. But until then, the burden of proof is shared, and you don't get to claim you're right by default, and get to claim that we need to provide proof and you don't.
You're being just as flaky.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Actually, in that second video, you can see that the Chief Mentalist that turns on your blaster friend isn't being affected by your Mud Pots. The rest of them stay on you, but the one not currently being affected by Mud Pots turns.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I don't even remember what the issue was about. My personal experience has been that even just counting on taunt auras, a Tanker can hold aggro 99% of circumstances excepting two conditions:
1) It's not WP's RttC
2) The enemies actually stay within the taunt aura's range.
Adding in Gauntlet (especially with AoEs) and taunt mechanics in general tends to mitigate much of both of those two remaining conditions, perhaps not perfectly, but by all means quite well.
If I had time for video evidence, I'd provide it. But that's been my experience for a long, long time.
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Actually, in that second video, you can see that the Chief Mentalist that turns on your blaster friend isn't being affected by your Mud Pots. The rest of them stay on you, but the one not currently being affected by Mud Pots turns.
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Yar, once I got back in range he was on me like glue. Couldn't get both he and the Comms Officer to move in range at the same time though, so I let the blaster deal with the lesser of two evils.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
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Actually, in that second video, you can see that the Chief Mentalist that turns on your blaster friend isn't being affected by your Mud Pots. The rest of them stay on you, but the one not currently being affected by Mud Pots turns.
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Yar, once I got back in range he was on me like glue. Couldn't get both he and the Comms Officer to move in range at the same time though, so I let the blaster deal with the lesser of two evils.
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5 bucks says that someone will come in and say something along the lines of 'but Mud Pots does damage, too!'
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
Videos
I made two videos. They aren't the most scientific things in the world, but I think they suit our purposes well enough. I took my old shelved Level 50 namesake into the back corner of RWZ. I was accompanied by a friend on his 50 Elec/Elec blaster. Using only Mud Pots, I rounded up a group (usually around a corner) and let the blaster cut loose on them. For this, Mud Pots was slotted only with 2xEndredux. I used no other powers other than Granite.
Video 1
Group of level 51 Rikti. Corner pulled, then unleashed the blaster. The blaster pulled a couple mobs, but I think they may have been out of range of my taunt aura. The group got pretty large when the Comms officer started summoning. Although he nabbed a couple away, I was able to take them back by moving within range.
Video 2
Almost identical results to video 1, except here we had level 53 Rikti. Held aggro well, lost a couple due to range issues, and was able to re-establish aggro through the blaster's attacks. (Oh, and have mercy on my Stone Tank... I wasn't paying attention to his health, and he's currently a tad underslotted defensively.)
There was a third group, but I forgot to turn on the recorder. That was a group of level 52 Rikti, and I did not lose aggro on a single critter throughout the fight.
Well, that's about the only evidence I have, since it's my only lvl50 tanker, and finding volunteers for something so boring is difficult. It wasn't purdy, I ain't teh uber, but there it is.
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How dare you provide evidence that backs up our dev fanboiism?!
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Actually, in that second video, you can see that the Chief Mentalist that turns on your blaster friend isn't being affected by your Mud Pots. The rest of them stay on you, but the one not currently being affected by Mud Pots turns.
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Yar, once I got back in range he was on me like glue. Couldn't get both he and the Comms Officer to move in range at the same time though, so I let the blaster deal with the lesser of two evils.
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5 bucks says that someone will come in and say something along the lines of 'but Mud Pots does damage, too!'
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LoL, and with no accuracy slotted in mine, and against +3 Rikti... it ticked a lot.
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How dare you provide evidence that backs up our dev fanboiism?!
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My God... I've become one of them! I'm a fanboi! *Throws himself upon his own Greater Fire Sword*
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
You idiot, elemental swords fade when you let go of them... jumping on it once it poofs does nothing!
Okay, since I didn't want to bother any of my friends, I made a quick AE mission with 3-5 Cyclops/Minotaur EBs and 1 EB Fire Blast / Fiery Aura ally. (Ally is brain dead and tends to unnecessarily eat AoEs.) Since I don't have FRAPs, I took a coh demo of the four characters I tested. All test runs were done on Unyielding setting facing lvl51-52 enemies. None of the auras have taunt enhancement.
Zip file of demos
<ul type="square">[*]ScrapperInvincibility.cohdemo - Used my lvl50 DM/Invuln Scrapper. Only click powers used were DP and inspirations (lucks/respites).[*]TankerBlazingAura.cohdemo - Used my lvl50 Fire/Stone Tanker. Only click powers used were Hasten, Healing Flames, and inspirations (lucks).[*]TankerChillingEmbrace.cohdemo - Used my lvl~44 Ice/SS Tanker. Only click powers used were Hoarfrost, Hibernate (detrimental to threat gen), Hasten, and inspirations (lucks). The build only has CE, no Icicles.[*]TankerRttC.cohdemo - Used my lvl50 WP/Fire Tanker. Used no click powers or inspirations.[/list]
The only times I lost aggro were when the mobs' Unstoppable crashed and they wandered out of my aura. (I normally tried to keep them in it.) My pet died during the WP test (but resurrected) because I had to move to reacquire aggro from the Unstoppable crashed mob. During this time RttC was out of range of the other EBs and that is when they stomped him.
Final note - when first testing the mission (to make sure it was an adequate map/setup) and before I started recording my runs, the pet did pull aggro off my WP Tank. This honestly didn't surprise me - RttC sucks, and I've never been shy saying so. :P
Conclusion: Aggro auras (with the possible exception of RttC - which can be mitigated with taunt enhancers) are strong enough to hold aggro just fine by themselves (on target they're hitting).
Having said that, utilizing your other threat generating powers (Gauntlet / Taunt) is wise in a team situation because of the target cap of auras and the fact mobs won't always be sitting in your aura (due to mobs fleeing out of range, knockback, ambushes, etc). I don't think anyone in this thread would argue this point; I'm just making sure I'm clear that turning on a taunt aura and calling it a day won't cut it in large groups for the above reasons, but not because they're inadequate threat generators.
Well, yeah, I mean... if it worked, that could really hurt.
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Having said that, utilizing your other threat generating powers (Gauntlet / Taunt) is wise in a team situation because of the target cap of auras and the fact mobs won't always be sitting in your aura (due to mobs fleeing out of range, knockback, ambushes, etc). I don't think anyone in this thread would argue this point; I'm just making sure I'm clear that turning on a taunt aura and calling it a day won't cut it in large groups for the above reasons, but not because they're inadequate threat generators.
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Most definitely. The argument of whether aggro can be held with only our auras is largely moot IMO. We have attacks, silly not to use them.
Victory: @Brimstone Bruce
Brimstone Bruce (lvl50 Stone/Fire Tanker) Broadside Bruce (lvl50 Shield/WM Tanker)
Ultionis (lvl50 Dark/Dark Defender) Cortex Crusher (lvl50 Mind/Kin Controller)
Patronox (lvl50 Kat/Dark Scrapper) Harbinger Mk.7 (lvl50 Bots/FF MM)
NightShift for Life.
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, since I didn't want to bother any of my friends, I made a quick AE mission with 3-5 Cyclops/Minotaur EBs and 1 EB Fire Blast / Fiery Aura ally. (Ally is brain dead and tends to unnecessarily eat AoEs.) Since I don't have FRAPs, I took a coh demo of the four characters I tested. All test runs were done on Unyielding setting facing lvl51-52 enemies. None of the auras have taunt enhancement.
Zip file of demos
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More fallacies dressed up as fact filled evidence to cover-up dev fanboism and life lacking number crunching individuals!
Don't you guys realize you look cooler if you ignore facts, act as if your misinformation was accurate and and insult others that post facts bragging about how much you ignored them!
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Final note - when first testing the mission (to make sure it was an adequate map/setup) and before I started recording my runs, the pet did pull aggro off my WP Tank. This honestly didn't surprise me - RttC sucks, and I've never been shy saying so. :P
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Yeah, RttC vs +2 enemies can get too weak without enhancements. Namely, it has only an effective duration of 1.0 after the purple patch resistance from +2s, with a 1.0 refresh rate, which is ... well, cutting it extremely close (I'm still speculating whether it happens because of threat decay, because a server tick is missed, or because server ticks, as Arcanaville measured them, are .132 seconds instead of the supposed .125 seconds). For the same reason, I like to slot three taunt enhancements instead of just two (technically, two and three even level SOs would mostly give you the same benefit against +4s, but the overlap is zero with two even level SOs and barely greater than zero with level 30+ common IOs).
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Final note - when first testing the mission (to make sure it was an adequate map/setup) and before I started recording my runs, the pet did pull aggro off my WP Tank. This honestly didn't surprise me - RttC sucks, and I've never been shy saying so. :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, RttC vs +2 enemies can get too weak without enhancements. Namely, it has only an effective duration of 1.0 after the purple patch resistance from +2s, with a 1.0 refresh rate, which is ... well, cutting it extremely close (I'm still speculating whether it happens because of threat decay, because a server tick is missed, or because server ticks, as Arcanaville measured them, are .132 seconds instead of the supposed .125 seconds). For the same reason, I like to slot three taunt enhancements instead of just two (technically, two and three even level SOs would mostly give you the same benefit against +4s, but the overlap is zero with two even level SOs and barely greater than zero with level 30+ common IOs).
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*nod*
Btw, when I was losing aggro in that initial test, it wasn't ever a complete loss. They tended to flinch towards the pet. When it was in melee range they would look at him then immediately turn back towards me. (Sometimes they'd get an attack off if they weren't already mid animation.) After he got knocked out of melee, one or two of the EBs would start to run towards it, then halfway there come back to me. It wasn't a complete loss, but it wasn't guaranteed aggro, either.
Personally, I overcome RttC with very liberal use of Taunt, AoEs (Combustion/FSC), and just plain getting to the mobs first (5-10s before the rest of the group is ideal). Yeah, this means I'll Taunt things already in melee range. If I had enough slots I'd definitely put some taunt enhancers into RttC, but the build is too tight to fit it, so I just make due without it.
It's a bit more manual and hands on, but I've actually kind of grown to like it. Oddly enough, I don't think I'd like WP as much if I didn't have to constantly work on holding aggro. (It takes the place of being active to keep myself alive like some sets.)
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This was more pointed at Sorciere who has claimed to have done extensive tests of the agro mechanic as a Tanker, which would have to include knowing about how Gauntlet worked to be somewhat accurate in those conclusions.
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Huh? What on earth are you talking about? You now claim that I didn't know about Gauntlet requiring a to-hit check, when only a couple of pages ago I was the one pointing out that in my recollection it DID require a to-hit check.
Get your story straight.