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... although for firetanks, it was kind of a matter of "read the Mephe's Perfect Burn Tank guide, throw down Burn for 300 hours."
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That was when people were using the defense exploit before GDN. And others were using the 5 damage SO's exploit before ED.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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... although for firetanks, it was kind of a matter of "read the Mephe's Perfect Burn Tank guide, throw down Burn for 300 hours."
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That was when people were using the defense exploit before GDN. And others were using the 5 damage SO's exploit before ED.
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What defense exploit? And what 5 damage SO exploit? Both of those were completely within the rules back then.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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But, more specifically, your thread is akin to this:
The police tell everybody that it's illegal to steal cars, but there are no laws specifically against it, and the laws that do exist are very hazy on the difference between buying a car and stealing one. People have been protesting that that should be allowed to do what might be considered stealing a car, or might be buying one, they're not sure. The police ignore it and arrest people stealing cars. People who have been arrested are very vocal about their arrests for stealing cars. The police AGAIN tell people that it's illegal to steal cars. At teh same time, they leave ton's of ownerless, brand new cars in teh streets with teh doors unlocked, the keys in the ignition, and a sign that says "Free cars, come get some!" Then you stand outside the police station, with police officers around, and ask a passerby if they think it's okay to steal a Ford instead of a Nissan. Also, the police are elected every month, and if you don't like teh laws that they enforce, you can kick them out of office
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Fixed it for you. Better analogies next time, plz.
I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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It all depends on what your definition of "is" is.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear. Some people want to reduce it to a phenomenology, "If I repeat the mission because I enjoy it, it's not farming." Even the definition of "unintended statistical advantage" that the devs gave is too vague. Tell me how much is too much or I will decide for myself.
The bottom line is, if they don't want me doing something they need to put a technological control on it. Failing that they have to give crystal clear guidleines. If they leave an avenue open for me to generate fast XP, I'm going to take it. I pay for the game, and I'll do whatever the game lets me do if I so choose. If they want to boot me for playing their poorly designed game in the most efficient way that's fine, they just did their competition a favor.
That said, I do believe that excessively lucrative farming is destructive to the longterm health of the game, but thats the dev's problem, not the players. When it was available, the players voted with their actions, and they overwhelmingly chose MEOW. It's the devs job to make sure that this is under control, don't try to outsource your job to me (again, since they seemingly want us to create content for them) by doing through stupid dictates what you should have done through solid game design.
They obviously rushed MA out without thinking through the implications. They need to admit they were wrong, make some changes, and deal with all the butt-hurt.
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear.
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Only meaning is, doing something over and over and over when it comes to game terms. Thats it. That s farming in an MMO. No other meaning no matter what someone wants to believe.
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear.
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Only meaning is, doing something over and over and over when it comes to game terms. Thats it. That s farming in an MMO. No other meaning no matter what someone wants to believe.
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Thats an incredibly stupid definition. How many times is too many to repeat something? If I made an all Sapper mish and repeated that (which I intend to do just as soon as I get done repeatedly slamming my testes in a car door) would I be farming?
By a strict reading of that rule, this game is nothing but farming, as I'm constantly repeating content. I think you've out-deved the devs here, as they certainly don't agree with this definition, or demon farms, warrior farms, etc would have been removed long ago.
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But, more specifically, your thread is akin to this:
The police tell everybody that it's illegal to steal cars, but there are no laws specifically against it, and the laws that do exist are very hazy on the difference between buying a car and stealing one. People have been protesting that that should be allowed to do what might be considered stealing a car, or might be buying one, they're not sure. The police ignore it and arrest people stealing cars. People who have been arrested are very vocal about their arrests for stealing cars. The police AGAIN tell people that it's illegal to steal cars. At teh same time, they leave ton's of ownerless, brand new cars in teh streets with teh doors unlocked, the keys in the ignition, and a sign that says "Free cars, come get some!" Then you stand outside the police station, with police officers around, and ask a passerby if they think it's okay to steal a Ford instead of a Nissan. Also, the police are elected every month, and if you don't like teh laws that they enforce, you can kick them out of office
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Fixed it for you. Better analogies next time, plz.
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Take your own advice. That analogy GROSSLY misrepresents what happened and you damn well know it.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear.
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While the line may be fuzzy, "meows" very clearly took a flying leap over it.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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they've been "caught" with their hands in the cookie jar
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Why were you looking at me when you said that?
That blue thing running around saying "Cookies are sometimes food" is Praetorian Cookie Monster!
Shoot on sight, please.
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear.
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Only meaning is, doing something over and over and over when it comes to game terms. Thats it. That s farming in an MMO. No other meaning no matter what someone wants to believe.
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Thats an incredibly stupid definition. How many times is too many to repeat something? If I made an all Sapper mish and repeated that (which I intend to do just as soon as I get done repeatedly slamming my testes in a car door) would I be farming?
By a strict reading of that rule, this game is nothing but farming, as I'm constantly repeating content. I think you've out-deved the devs here, as they certainly don't agree with this definition, or demon farms, warrior farms, etc would have been removed long ago.
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Why? They've said, even quite recently, that they'll never be able to get rid of all farms. However, they've also specifically said that the MA is not to be used for farming. As such, they can take whatever definition they have for farming, and apply rules to the MA system that they don't need to do to the rest of the game. What is allowed in the MA does not need to follow what is allowed outside the MA.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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400+ runs of the STF, done ENTIRELY FOR REWARD, the cutscenes are boring and I go make a sandwich or drink while they are running, 180 seconds for the god damn lose = Farming, you cannot define it any other way = Not okay according to the rules. No punishment. Check.
Paper running specifically Freaks or other mob = Farming = Not okay, according to the rules. No punishment. Check.
Re-running/Using an arc in MA that someone might construe as "farming" because of how the map is laid out = Not okay. "BAN THE [censored] HEATHENS!" Uh...check.
:
The Comm Officers? Yeah, those were a bug. They were dealt with. Mole Machines? They were also a bug. They were dealt with.
Kill the "farming" rhetoric and everyone would be happy. MMOs subsist on "farming". They couldn't be successful without it and they wouldn't be able to exist without it.
Or just auto-lock any thread that mentions farming, meowing (ha ha, catgirl RPers), or any related subjects and things might work out for the better.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear.
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While the line may be fuzzy, "meows" very clearly took a flying leap over it.
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Agreed. And the dev's took the appropriate action by removing it, even if they were "forced" to let it go until exactly the moment that the reactivation week ended. That said, they never should have let that exploit go live to begin with, and they need to take responsibility instead of putting it on the players.
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... although for firetanks, it was kind of a matter of "read the Mephe's Perfect Burn Tank guide, throw down Burn for 300 hours."
[/ QUOTE ]
That was when people were using the defense exploit before GDN. And others were using the 5 damage SO's exploit before ED.
[/ QUOTE ]
What defense exploit? And what 5 damage SO exploit? Both of those were completely within the rules back then.
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and defeating comm officers was completely withing the rules also. of course if you keep the rules secret........
you dont actually know that something is an exploit until they declare it so. You might have a pretty good idea that it might be, but you dont know. Perma dom fits into the description for exploit, yet the devs say its ok.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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400+ runs of the STF, done ENTIRELY FOR REWARD, the cutscenes are boring and I go make a sandwich or drink while they are running, 180 seconds for the god damn lose = Farming, you cannot define it any other way = Not okay according to the rules. No punishment. Check.
Paper running specifically Freaks or other mob = Farming = Not okay, according to the rules. No punishment. Check.
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Please show me where in the rules doing either of these things is not okay. I'll wait.
"You are not to use the MA for farming" does not mean that all farming is bad.
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The Comm Officers? Yeah, those were a bug. They were dealt with. Mole Machines? They were also a bug. They were dealt with.
Kill the "farming" rhetoric and everyone would be happy. MMOs subsist on "farming". They couldn't be successful without it and they wouldn't be able to exist without it.
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Do you have any proof of this, or is it just your own assumption? I don't believe it for a second that an MMO couldn't exist without farming.
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Or just auto-lock any thread that mentions farming, meowing (ha ha, catgirl RPers), or any related subjects and things might work out for the better.
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They do shut down most of those threads. I wouldn't be surprised if this one gets locked as well.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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and defeating comm officers was completely withing the rules also.
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Was it? When the Devs made it pretty clear before the MA was even released that exploits in the MA would be addressed? It was pretty dumb of them to allow it to go through from the Beta, but I do believe that they made it pretty clear that farming like that was NOt within the rules of the MA.
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you dont actually know that something is an exploit until they declare it so. You might have a pretty good idea that it might be, but you dont know.
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There is a pretty good deal of gray area when it comes to exploits, I'll give you that. The Comm Officer missions were so far into the black area it wasn't funny, and it was pretty obvious that they were in the black area, too. Being able to level from 1 to 50 in the span of a couple of hours with a single high-level character in a group should have tripped pretty much everyone's alarm.
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Perma dom fits into the description for exploit, yet the devs say its ok.
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How does perma-dom fit the definition of an exploit? In order to get there, you need to spend millions and millions of influence, and take time to get your characters to a level where it's possible. Even then, you are only seeing the AT at the peak of it's performance. Perma Dom is not an exploit, and never has been. Seeking to attain Perma-Dom is nothing more than a Tanker trying to achieve the Defense Soft Cap.
The ONLY thing that it does is create a have-vs-have not situation within the Dominator community. But even that isn't too bad.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Yeah, thats the ticket!
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I don't really get how "You are not to use the MA for farming" is anything but clear.
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For one, the definition of farming is anything but clear.
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While the line may be fuzzy, "meows" very clearly took a flying leap over it.
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Agreed. And the dev's took the appropriate action by removing it, even if they were "forced" to let it go until exactly the moment that the reactivation week ended. That said, they never should have let that exploit go live to begin with, and they need to take responsibility instead of putting it on the players.
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This I would agree with.
However, I think that the Devs are well within their rights to try to make the players uphold some sort of standards. "They didn't force me not to do it" really isn't an excuse you can use in the rest of the world. I don't see many full-grown adults try to say that they robbed a bank because the cops were there specifically to stop them, therefore it must be okay.
The Devs have asked the players not to do something, and warned that there would be consequences if they did it anyways. Some players did it anyways, and they had consequences laid down on them.
100,000+ players will always be more crafty than 50 Devs. It's always going to happen that way. There's really no way around it. At some point, even if the Devs do crack down a lot more on issues with the MA, some player will find a way around it. At some point, there's not much more you can do than tell the players the rules they are expected to play by, and say that you'll punish people who don't play that way.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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and defeating comm officers was completely withing the rules also.
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Was it? When the Devs made it pretty clear before the MA was even released that exploits in the MA would be addressed? It was pretty dumb of them to allow it to go through from the Beta, but I do believe that they made it pretty clear that farming like that was NOt within the rules of the MA.
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you dont actually know that something is an exploit until they declare it so. You might have a pretty good idea that it might be, but you dont know.
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There is a pretty good deal of gray area when it comes to exploits, I'll give you that. The Comm Officer missions were so far into the black area it wasn't funny, and it was pretty obvious that they were in the black area, too. Being able to level from 1 to 50 in the span of a couple of hours with a single high-level character in a group should have tripped pretty much everyone's alarm.
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Perma dom fits into the description for exploit, yet the devs say its ok.
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How does perma-dom fit the definition of an exploit? In order to get there, you need to spend millions and millions of influence, and take time to get your characters to a level where it's possible. Even then, you are only seeing the AT at the peak of it's performance. Perma Dom is not an exploit, and never has been. Seeking to attain Perma-Dom is nothing more than a Tanker trying to achieve the Defense Soft Cap.
The ONLY thing that it does is create a have-vs-have not situation within the Dominator community. But even that isn't too bad.
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the concept of domination is pretty easy. you build up a bar of "domination", click the button, you have elevated powers for a set amount of time. Getting your recharge up to where you go around the mechanism of the domination bar clearing is clearly an exploit. You are circumventing the game code.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
[ QUOTE ]
Why? They've said, even quite recently, that they'll never be able to get rid of all farms. However, they've also specifically said that the MA is not to be used for farming. As such, they can take whatever definition they have for farming, and apply rules to the MA system that they don't need to do to the rest of the game. What is allowed in the MA does not need to follow what is allowed outside the MA.
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On the face of things, this is patently absurd. MA is used for nothing BUT farming. No one cares about your fan fic.
And if the dev's were interested in getting rid of farming, wouldn't it make sense to start with the portion they have complete control over?
I think a lot of the attitude comes from that until now, we've been mostly used to the devs being pretty lax by MMO standards, and being quiet about having to take action against players (as far as I know, anyway). Positron's announcement was a huge shock, but I think it was necessary to get the message across that farming MA exploits=bad.
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On the face of things, this is patently absurd. MA is used for nothing BUT farming. No one cares about your fan fic.
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Really? Nobody in the entire game uses the MA to just run different arcs and see the different stories? Because I certainly do.
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And if the dev's were interested in getting rid of farming, wouldn't it make sense to start with the portion they have complete control over?
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Again, they're not. Please show me where they ever said that they were interested in getting rid of farming.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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The new meow is all sapper missions. Don't let out that I told you guys
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Fixed again!!!! 
See, even Mod8 says so.............PpppptttttHahahahaaa
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*Facepalm* Seems it really is gonna take the wrath of the devs to get it through people's heads rather than just threats.
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I don't envy their position. They can either allow MA to be abused horrendously or bring down the wrath of heaven on its misuse, progressively alienating more and more players with each exploitative loophole they close. I suppose I'd go with "stop the abuse and suffer the consequences" myself, and I think the devs will do the same, but that combined with all the other angst and threats to the game out there means the servers may be pretty quiet places a year from now.
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If those players you are referring to get so bent out of shape because they've been "caught" with their hands in the cookie jar than good riddance to them. This game will be better off without them.