Does evil ever win? Should it?
By
baron_inferno,
Posted on: 2009-06-02 04:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Captain Jack Sparrow!
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Captain Jack Sparrow!
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LOL though I totally love jack sparrow, I'm not sure he's actually a bad person or completely selfish during his run through the three movies.
One movie character I can think of who does 'win' in a movie despite being apparently thoroughly self-serving and even murderous, is the protagonist in The Last Seduction.
Oh, and Keyser Soze (sp) of course.
Eco
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Gabriel Shear in Swordfish? Kinda evil, blew people up with ball bearings.
Easy! Dungeon Keeper is pretty much the perfect example - you carve a dungeon out of the ground and fill it with ugly monsters from hell, then proceed to trounce the good guys and turn good land after good land into... Well, hell. Not that I would enjoy doing that now, but there is something to be said about evil.
To me, evil itself has never been a problem when done right, it's all the nasty side effects that evil brings to the table that gross me out. I very much think that evil winning can make for a good story, but only if it is done right. To my tastes, that would mean giving evil class, giving evil ability and giving evil a vision for bigger things. Yes, technically a serial killer is evil, especially one who tortures, but he is also pathetic and limited in a variety of ways. This, along with the obvious nastiness of what he's actually doing turn him into a hatable villain.
For my money, I prefer villains with class and purpose. Ruling the world is an obvious one, but even just gaining a lot of money is respectable. Just as long as the villain has a reason to be evil above and beyond for kicks and giggles. I also prefer a villain with clear ability. Not the bumbling mad scientist or lumbering monster who fail because they're inferior and everyone has a hearty laugh at their ineptitude, but the strong, dangerous villain always in control who is always one step away from achieving his victory. In a sense, the villain who does not win because the heroes were weak, did not cooperate or were somehow impeded, but who wins because he is stronger.
I also like the planning villain. One who is stronger, yet doesn't use his strength to bludgeon everything until he succeeds, but rather one who uses it to forward his agenda ever onward, never truly revealing it unless he has to, either as his crowning moment of awesome when the whole plan comes together, or to trump a situation that he should rightly have used.
When a villain strives for the impossible and has the power to achieve it, yet does not rush forward like a dumb animal and does not murder everyone along the way for no reason, that is when I can see a villain winning. When every step of the way is at most a draw with the heroes, and more usually still in his favour, then I can see him win.
Tragically, very few stories in City of Villains have anything at all to do with this. Most of the jobs are fairly basic grunt work of the "go kill him for me" type. We don't get to have class, and as we cannot have style in-game and no contact ever comments on it, we can't have that, either. We can't have any vision, because there are never any opportunities to work for our own goals. And what's worse, the game often mistakes "dirty" and "disgusting" with "evil" the same way many horror films mix up "scary" and "bloody." You can have evil without eating babies, burning books or cackling like an idiot. It's not easy to pull off, but it is VERY rewarding when done right.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Can anyone think of examples in other media of villains being evil and winning through at the finish?
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Yes, plenty.
Hannibal
House of Cards
The Sopranos
The Tom Ripley books
All of the Flashman books
oh, and the 'evil ending' to any game you care to think of 
The point about CoV is that the player is in charge, so the player's character has to be able to win on their terms. We don't want to recreate standard comic-book scenarios in which evil is always beaten by good. We don't play to lose.
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The point about CoV is that the player is in charge, so the player's character has to be able to win on their terms. We don't want to recreate standard comic-book scenarios in which evil is always beaten by good. We don't play to lose.
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Setting developer content aside for a second, I really wish more arc makers understood this. All too often arcs are the vessel of somebody else's characters and my villains just help them win. That's not what I signed up for. Even more often, however, missions are just mercenary work where even though you may win the fight, it's not you who "won."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In an old TV series called Blakes 7, the "bad guys" were actually the good guys and the "good guys", the government, were the evil doers.
The series ended with the government winning and all the main characters dying. Sorry to spoil the show. 
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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The series ended with the government winning and all the main characters dying. Sorry to spoil the show.
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Ahem. Avon lived. He was too sexy to die. Fact.
On another note: evil many MANY times wins in the real world. That's one of the reasons why we create fiction, so that good can win SOMEWHERE at least.
Yes, Everything I Need To Know In Life I Learned From The Last Action Hero
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In an old TV series called Blakes 7, the "bad guys" were actually the good guys and the "good guys", the government, were the evil doers.
The series ended with the government winning and all the main characters dying. Sorry to spoil the show.
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Well, all the alledged deaths apart from Blakes happened 'offscreen' (the screen was black, accompanied by the oft-argued-about sounds of the lazergun firefight that is supposed to have killed them all), so its still possible that they arent dead, iirc. I saw this when it was first aired in the UK. it was awesome.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Watchmen.
Maybe.
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In an old TV series called Blakes 7, the "bad guys" were actually the good guys and the "good guys", the government, were the evil doers.
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Done before - Robin Hood comes to mind.
My scrapper doesn't need an AoE. She IS an AoE.
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In an old TV series called Blakes 7, the "bad guys" were actually the good guys and the "good guys", the government, were the evil doers.
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Done before - Robin Hood comes to mind.
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When was the last time the government were the GOOD guys?
For evil to win, you first need a game engine that supports a dynamic world instead of a static one.
As long as we're playing a game in which the Redcaps are still invading Salamanca four years later, we're playing a game in which evil can never win unless that victory is sanctioned by the Powers That Be, and it occurs in some fashion that is repeatable forever by a hundred thousand other villains.
Evil cannot win or even really lose, as long as the world is a static videotape replay that's run over and over and over and over.
Of course, the good guys don't often make a lasting effect either... Croatoa's still infested with supernatural horrors.
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Can anyone think of examples in other media of villains being evil and winning through at the finish?
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Blood Omen comes to mind.
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Vorador was right. We are Gods - Dark Gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Satan.
He's scheduled to lose, but, it has happened yet.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
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Satan.
He's scheduled to lose, but, it has happened yet.
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Satan isn't such a bad guy...
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Of course, the good guys don't often make a lasting effect either... Croatoa's still infested with supernatural horrors.
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And don't get me started on Dark Astoria...
In the first two books of the "Song of Ice & Fire" series by George R. R. Martin, the bad guys "win". That's why I never read the third one - I get enough gloom and doom from real life without reading about it for fun. Those friggin books read like a snuff-film script.
I heard HBO might be doing a series based on the story.
Larry: Owen, what the hell did you do to my wife?
Owen: Well I don't want to say on the phone - all I can tell you is that I killed her last night.
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Of course, the good guys don't often make a lasting effect either... Croatoa's still infested with supernatural horrors.
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And don't get me started on Dark Astoria...
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One of the most immersion breaking aspects of all MMOs has always been the fact that no matter how many hours and days and weeks I spend in a zone "patroling" and cleaning it up, I can never seem to make a difference.
I know, I know... but still, it irks me.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
I will, to this thread submit my personal favorite novel, Villains by Neccissity, writen by Eve Foreward.
It's a typical fantasy novel with the following set up; a long time ago the world was beset by darkness and evil. Dragons and demons prowled the night, united behind The Dark Lord, who threatened to plunge the world into a hellish eternal night. But a band of unlikely heroes, each champions of what was Good and right set aside their differences and banded together to overthrow the Dark Lord and shatter his hold over the land.
But they didn't stop there. No these heroes and their descendents wages a relentless campaign against the dark, leaving no stone unturned, scouring the wicked things and men of poor moral character from the world. The group's wizard created a spell that would infuse the soul of a wicked man with light, thus transforming these villains into peaceful and productive folk.
So it has gone until now the world is a bright and pristine place. Noble dragons and majestic Unicorns move freely across the land, and the people's are united by the legacy of the heroes that freed them. The world stands poised to ascend into a perfect glorious radiance of the light, when the last 6 unlikely scoundrels must band together, setting aside their personal differences to restore the power of the darkness to it's rightful place.
Great freaking book.
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
I've been involved with another game for about 8 years. It is pretty RP intensive, which is aided by a very dynamic world that does change over time depending on what happens. (Although not always, the status quo is rather prevalent as well.) Most people are on the side of good. Plenty aren't. However, few of the 'bad' guys often come across as too believable. They haven't quite figured out how to mesh themselves with a dynamic, living world in an organic way.
Someone I know over there made a very wise point about being a bad guy: "In order to play the villian well, you have to be willing to lose."
This thread is about exceptions to that rule, but it is still the general rule. The villian exists as a foil to the hero and to give the hero something to fight against and triumph over. If the villian truly wins... it can be pretty much "game over."
Some folk like to whinge about how their villains don't feel 'bad' enough or how they're fed up of being Lord Recluse's stooge.
I was wondering about what sort of storyline endings these types would like to see, which got me to thinking about villains in books, movies, other games, and also to some extent reality.
Can anyone think of examples in other media of villains being evil and winning through at the finish?
Behaving badly and either getting away with it or being rewarded for it in RL seems to happen fairly often (serial killers getting away with it for decades or even not being caughtc at all, company CEOs willfully mismanaging and getting huge pension payodfs etc), but I'm not sure I'd describe those as narratively satisfying.
Any ideas?
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)