Does evil ever win? Should it?
By
baron_inferno,
Posted on: 2009-06-02 04:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Another side thought.
Not everyone who's "evil" believes that they are. We have more than a few historical/literary references where the "Villain" is doing what they do because they believe that they're acting for the greater good.
For Example: Lenin and company started a revolution that overthrew a government they felt was corrupt. Were the Communists evil?
History has shown us that the system became corrupt and collapsed but they did not consider themselves evil.
In comics, villains like Dr. Doom feel that the world would be a much better place under their rule. They are obviously superior (they believe) so they should be the ones making the decisions. It's only their methods for achieving this that define them as evil.
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What's that you say? Read my sig?
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Bin laden won.
just facts.
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if you go off of kill count i think bush won
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Bin laden won.
just facts.
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if you go off of kill count i think bush won
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The point still stands. *zing*
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Bin laden won.
just facts.
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if you go off of kill count i think bush won
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Too bad about the horrible aim. 
"Myth" was a poor choice of wording from me earlier. "Illusion" would have been a better choice.
Be well, people of CoH.
Evil has to win, time to time, otherwise there's no compelling reason to be good. If evil is guaranteed to fail then the efforts of good become meaningless.
If the next Jesus is a shrimp, it wont be evil, it will be evolution, in a shrimp point of view.
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In an old TV series called Blakes 7, the "bad guys" were actually the good guys and the "good guys", the government, were the evil doers.
The series ended with the government winning and all the main characters dying. Sorry to spoil the show. 
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Well, all the alledged deaths apart from Blakes happened 'offscreen' (the screen was black, accompanied by the oft-argued-about sounds of the lazergun firefight that is supposed to have killed them all), so its still possible that they arent dead, iirc. I saw this when it was first aired in the UK. it was awesome.
Eco.
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In my defense, its been...25 years or more since I saw any of the show. I may have a fairly good memory, but detail form that far back are somewhat fuzzy. I do recall, at least it seemed so to me, that the government won out in the end.
By the way..was Avon the guy that kept wanting to take over command from Blake?
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When was the last time the government were the GOOD guys?
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Independence Day. I think all the governments were the good guys that day.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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I will, to this thread submit my personal favorite novel, Villains by Neccissity, writen by Eve Foreward.
It's a typical fantasy novel with the following set up; a long time ago the world was beset by darkness and evil. Dragons and demons prowled the night, united behind The Dark Lord, who threatened to plunge the world into a hellish eternal night. But a band of unlikely heroes, each champions of what was Good and right set aside their differences and banded together to overthrow the Dark Lord and shatter his hold over the land.
But they didn't stop there. No these heroes and their descendents wages a relentless campaign against the dark, leaving no stone unturned, scouring the wicked things and men of poor moral character from the world. The group's wizard created a spell that would infuse the soul of a wicked man with light, thus transforming these villains into peaceful and productive folk.
So it has gone until now the world is a bright and pristine place. Noble dragons and majestic Unicorns move freely across the land, and the people's are united by the legacy of the heroes that freed them. The world stands poised to ascend into a perfect glorious radiance of the light, when the last 6 unlikely scoundrels must band together, setting aside their personal differences to restore the power of the darkness to it's rightful place.
Great freaking book.
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Onf my favorites. It contains one of my favorite lines; when confronted with a Heroic Impossible Task, the villains think and think about how they can pull it off. Until one looks up and says :
"What are we thinking ?! We're villains ! We'll cheat !"
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
In the comic book sense, I don't think evil should win outright, but it should win enough of the time to keep good on its toes. I see it as an equilibrium, with both sides being unequal but stable. When the equilibrium is upset there inevitably follows a reaction that returns stability.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
I can list two quasi scenarios, and one is already in the game. See people often confuse ultimate goals with win/loss when it comes to villainy. Are the good guys measured by such circumstances. Take Dr. Doom, his ultimate goal is to either rule the world or eliminate Reed Richards, happily both if he could. Batmans ultimate goal is to clean up Gotham and avenge injustice. Now Doom and Bats may be able to accomplish the likelier goals of killing Reed or cleaning Gotham of crime, but it won't happen where it sticks becuse we lose pathos. They could accomplish the other goals of conquering the world or avenging all injustice, but these are pie in the sky type goals that if it happened, well it wouldn't make for that interesting a world.
So were not looking at villain would achieve their goal, but more will they be outright succesful in their field and have a chance. Dr. Doom rules Latervia (barring recent stuff), is considered a foremost world leader/terror, and at any moment seems capable and it be possible for him to actually achieve his ultimate goal. Other villains grudgingly respect him, fear him or just want to be him. He's a succesful villain. Sure he has the losuiest track record of villainy in Marvel, but he's rich, famous, owns his own country and people, and a bad [censored]. That's a succesful villain.
Lord Recluse fits the same bill. He owns an island. Has a huge organization under him. Villains respect, fear, envy and loathe him. At any moment he seems poised to accomplish his ultimate ambitions. Sure a destined one threatens him, he failed at power because a group of up and comers beat him when they destroyed his power gathering towers, but at the end of the day he has more personal and political power then any in this world. Succesful villainy.
Now if you wanted to translate that in game for the players, well it's a little tricky but possible. The easiest thing first is to not have the 3rd teir villains bad mouth you at 50. Sure the Patrons look down on you at first, but you yeah them and the big man himself. Why are you recieving lip from sidekicks like Barracuda and Ice Mistral? Oh they don't have to fear my red side 50, but treat me like the threat Im supposed to be.
Another possible method is have a signature Hero, not one of the 8 though, die at out hands. I mean in cannon, say BLANK died to mysterious villain making their mark. The villain need not be named (it's you and your buddies) but give us a badge and have story arcs allude to it by throwing us respect or coming at us for vengeance. I mean look at other TFs, we as players stop Hero1 during the LGTF. Oh sure it could have been any and every player, but canon has us unamed people doing it. Same could he done with death of a signature.
There are many more ways to treat villains like the menaces they should be, wihout having us attain ultimate goals. Once in awhile acknowledge we got one over on someone else. Arc wise I've only seen it happen in Willy Wheeler and Recluse, otherwise it's my red wider that's been used, duped, or bullied to stand down. The mystic maguffin device Im stealing for someone else. Have my red sider know what the power is for once and take it from all parties, screw them since my red sider did the work. Let me run into an organization and defeat it's leader, giving me a temp power that has 1 enemy faction at a time ignore my presence (unless I attack them) because I'm now there defacto leader, or I'm just hat bad [censored].
I could go on. All I'm saying is when you hit 40's your doing mission for contacts that have you operating as exterminators to city basement pests, burning books in orphanges, being used as a thug assassin and then being told to go away like a good boy, or steal x precious to give to y over yonder when I could use said precious all my own but am too stupid/thuggish. One contact got me taking down stuff for his lab experiments gone wrong, while an electronic device whispers to me stuff to get his own plans going.
All these arcs have this bumbling stooge thug merc mentality going for it, but I'm on my way to 50! Check blue side, where yes they have their share of gopher or wonky explored missions, but then they also fight dimensional invaders, handle world scale threatening problems and are called heroes with respect rather then from the sides of peoples mouths. Don't get me wrong, I love those burn books for orphanges missions and such, but for some alts. Others want to be world crushing, or at least organization ruling power houses in their own right. Script it right and have the proper dialogue, and I can truly feel like a villain, even if I just lost another one to that caped crusader
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done earlier in thread :P
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Missed that. Mine is better because it has 20% more pie.
Pie Pie Pie...
See.....
Ok...I will leave now....
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I saw no pie.
Now, MY posts all have pie. Along with orcs.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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But evil should be allowed to make advances, win property, and alter the face of things for the worse, up to a point. I'd love it if you could 'take over' a certain % of the spawn points in an open zone so that your custom critters spawned there, for instance.
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Recluse's Victory physically changes in those ways when you capture pillboxes.
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Technically it doesn't physically change when you do that.
Just chances from UV to normal lighting 
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Of course, it's because you don't want Arachnos to be mad at you (oh no, what are they going to do? Shoot at me even more?)
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Revoke your Destined One status, medical insurance, and annihilate you the next time you get within 80' of an Arbiter Drone, possibly deleting the character for good measure.
Look at it from the contacts' perspective. Suddenly the Isles are chock-full of ultimately expendable superpowered villains who are given leave by Recluse to do things they wouldn't get away with themselves. It's the perfect opportunity to further their own schemes. A Destined One that amassess too much personal power would be a threat to Arachnos anyway.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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The easiest thing first is to not have the 3rd teir villains bad mouth you at 50. Sure the Patrons look down on you at first, but you yeah them and the big man himself. Why are you recieving lip from sidekicks like Barracuda and Ice Mistral? Oh they don't have to fear my red side 50, but treat me like the threat Im supposed to be.
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I agree with this whole post, but especially this part.
The other villains in the Rogue Isles may be smack-talking jerks, but you should earn their respect or fear at some point. At some point the game could offer you Contacts, but call them 'lackeys' or 'servants' and have them act accordingly (including attempting to backstab and betray you while smiling to your face).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I'd rather avoid that particular terminology. It makes it sound like the contact in question serves you, you alone, and every six hundred you's who talked to him in the past hour.
Now, I agree, there should be more 'fixer' type contacts.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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But evil should be allowed to make advances, win property, and alter the face of things for the worse, up to a point. I'd love it if you could 'take over' a certain % of the spawn points in an open zone so that your custom critters spawned there, for instance.
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Recluse's Victory physically changes in those ways when you capture pillboxes.
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Technically it doesn't physically change when you do that.
Just chances from UV to normal lighting
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maybe you havent been there? atlas's statue becomes recluse and city hall and the surrounding area takes on the arachnos tileset. not to mention the actual appearance of villain vs hero pillboxes.
oh yea and sig. hero/villains appear but thats not really architecture, although it does help the feeling of a struggle.
edit: also forgot to mention that when you win you are awarded a mini heavy as a pet. thats technically spawning your own custom critters, not exactly what AE gives you but they follow you until you die or zone and can be used while operating a zone heavy.
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I'd rather avoid that particular terminology. It makes it sound like the contact in question serves you, you alone, and every six hundred you's who talked to him in the past hour.
Now, I agree, there should be more 'fixer' type contacts.
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Yes, because the contact is a backstabbing jerk who likes to hedge his bets. As long as the game acknowledges that you know that, that's fine. He serves you, and you alone, RIGHT NOW, because you are scary, and you are right in front of him and those six hundred other guys are not.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
A TRUE hero questions whether or not he is a villain. And a villain KNOWS he is the hero.
Evil wins all the time in this game, actually. No more so than as a player Villain, where you succeed at nearly every evil task you set out to do.
The problem is--and this is essential--the evil plots you carry out are almost invariably your contacts' evil plots, not yours. That makes you a Mercenary, not a Villain. Now, Mercenaries can be plenty evil, but a true Villain makes his own plans.
A Hero seeks out injustices and rights them. A Villain seeks out opportunities and exploits them. Where the true profit of a mission for a Hero comes from saving the day, the true profit for a Villain should be more than just what their contact is willing to pay them. There has to be something within the mission itself which benefits the Villain, if they are to be separated from mere Mercenaries.
This sounds a little more complicated than it is. In game, the most basic missions that are true Villain missions (and, unfortunately, pretty much the only ones) are the Newspaper missions. You learn of something to steal, or someone who threatens your power, or someone who you can beat up to get more notoriety, and then you go take care of it.
The whole sense of being a lackey instead of a full-fledged Villain is exacerbated by the ubiquitous presence of Arachnos. Ironically, Villains are allowed much less freedom than Heroes. Since this point is a matter of degree, it is easier to illustrate it by imagining if the scenario was reversed: What if Heroes bought all their enhancements from Longbow quartermasters while Villains bought theirs from various shady businesses? What if Heroes were trained by designated Freedom Corp trainers, in a regulated manner, while Villains had to seek out powerful individuals to help them advance in power? What if Heroes took Patron Pools from admired, veteran Heroes, while Villains developed their epic powers on their own? I'm not saying this would be better, I'm just pointing out the irony of Villains having more governmental supervision than Heroes.
My point in all this is that evil does win in this game, and very often, at that. It's just that, due to the way CoV is structured, the evil that wins never really feels like it was the player Villain's idea.
Edited for length.
Virtue:
Grul Doctor Pinnacle Swarm Caller Pity Fist Smashdozer Dhuuln
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Evil wins all the time in this game, actually. No more so than as a player Villain, where you succeed at nearly every evil task you set out to do.
[/ QUOTE ]After a certain point the game makes a point that when you 'succeed' you only succeed at hurting bad people, or good people come on and, beyond your control, fix what you did. You don't win. You can't win.
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After a certain point the game makes a point that when you 'succeed' you only succeed at hurting bad people, or good people come on and, beyond your control, fix what you did. You don't win. You can't win.
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Isn't that coincidentally the point where you succeeding would be a major blow to the status quo?
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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After a certain point the game makes a point that when you 'succeed' you only succeed at hurting bad people, or good people come on and, beyond your control, fix what you did. You don't win. You can't win.
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Isn't that coincidentally the point where you succeeding would be a major blow to the status quo?
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It depends on what you define as 'winning'.
Is robbing the bank and escaping with the loot winning?
Is corrupting an innocent NPC winning?
Is getting away with murder winning?
These are things you get to do all of the time.
Is it only winning if you get your face plastered over Lord Recluse's on all of the posters and video screens?
Is it only winning if you level all of Paragon City and it looks that way on everyone else's computer? And stays that way so long as you are subscribed to the game?
These are things you can never do outside of an instance; or if you could do them it would be meaningless because there would be 200 guys lined up behind you to take their turn at 'Taking over Arachnos once and for all!'
I think the problem with villainy in this game is that there needs to be some kind of 'hatch plot' system, with escalating, dynamic, acheivable goals that you can work toward over a period of weeks.
In the meantime, I'd be happy with them using 'dialogue branch' tech to make Contacts and other NPCs speak to me with fear and respect in their attitudes based on what badges I have or something.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Revoke your Destined One status, medical insurance, and annihilate you the next time you get within 80' of an Arbiter Drone, possibly deleting the character for good measure.
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That's why I set up my own hospital in my base. My characters are not beholden to Arachnos no matter how much the game acts as if they are.
Bin laden won.
just facts.