[ QUOTE ]
I completely understand Ultimo's concept. Speaking for myself and a handful of others, I drew and wrote my own comic books with original characters who had a variety of powers long before City of Heroes came out. Some of them may have used blast typed powers but were also resilient (as a reference: Silver Surfer type character). In some rare cases, you can't fully create a concept character using the power selections and 99 times out of 100, for good reason.
This is why I love MA; it finally allows me to make almost all of the characters I created in my youth. I wish that I could play AS them but for now it has to be good enough that I fight along side them or against them.
Again, I wish that there was a game similar to CoH where issues of balance didn't exist where I could play an energy blast/inv blaster or a mind control/martial arts scrapper but since the mmorpg side of the game takes precedence over unlimited creativity I just rely on imagination which is fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Freedom Force games were pretty good at letting you build a superhero as you liked. It was mostly single-player with a multi-player mode, but it honestly wasn't all that balanced, and there were ways to sneak in some utterly devastating powers for cheap.
It's because of those games that I respect the careful balancing act that the devs on an MMO like this have to do. Even when I miss being that powerful.
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MMMyeeahhh.... I don't buy that answer either, or Statesman and every other "Tanker" NPC wouldn't be doing 10 times as much damage as ours do.
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It's been noted a lot of times but lore wise Statesman is not a tanker, he is an Incarnate (not just an origin) and that puts him at the Superman level of power. Comparing tankers to Statesman is like comparing Colosus to Superman.
That being told, in-game, AV is an AT on it's own. A darn sturdy and heavy hitting AT. Hero critters are just the same AT with a different name.
[ QUOTE ]
It always seemed to me that they preferred to ram the AT-group-MMO-Thing down our throats.
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The original game design WAS intended to be an AT-Group-MMO. They were going the full trinity thing:
Damage dealers kill.
Tankers hold aggro.
Defenders heal/buff/increase kill speed
Controllers hold everything but the bosses that forced keep the tanker with a job.
Many things were wrong in their numbers, though. Controllers stacking mez easily to hold bosses, damage dealers killing faster than they were able to be killed, tankers doing more AoE damage than intended, defenders stacking, etc. Not to mention miscalculation of many complex mechanics that made almost everyone solo decently.
Yes the game and it's content were designed as typical MMOs, it was CoV that was designed around a more general grouping mechanic were everyone was about damage (but doms but thats getting fixed)
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Oh, I get all that. That was an idea I had after just 1 year in the game, after all - and I'm not the number-cruncher you lot are. :P
I understood the mechanics a lot less then I do now. I'm of the school of Havok (or was it Kruunch?) who coined the slogan during the KOB campaign "I just want to punch the bejesus out of stuff!".
But, yes, you're right.
As an example of my less-than-concerned interest in combat statistics, I also submitted to Statesman in '05 something called "Comic Book Mode" where you set an option that removes the damage numbers from combat, and replacing them with onomatopoeia ("Boom!" "Freem!" "KPOW!") - others here - to give the game a more immersive 'comic book' feel if you wanted it, and not worry about DPS and other stuff.
I got an "Interesting...".
I bet CO will get it. Heh.
But I digress.
[/ QUOTE ]
So that's where they got the idea for their April Fools joke a year or two ago. 
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day
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[ QUOTE ]
Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:
There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.
These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this was in 2005. I only brought it up now because of the sense of deja vu I was experiencing.
I did think that way. I don't now. I got better.
*sounds of electro-shock therapy*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:
There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.
These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this was in 2005. I only brought it up now because of the sense of deja vu I was experiencing.
I did think that way. I don't now. I got better.
*sounds of electro-shock therapy*
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, it is a smart thing. If there was a way to make tankers be at risk but be strong ST I would be tottally behi.l.... hmmm.... i think it CAN be done...
Hmmm...
Let me see....
Give tanker a FoeCount aura that just serves as a count of foes that are surrounding him... this aura "counts" foe rank, so .33 points for a minion, .66 points for a lt, etcetera... make an inner radius/outter radius play so that the very very near by foes count more than the further foes..
Now, give all single target attacks on the tanker extra bonus damage that is multiplied by the number of critters around you, this damage is not enhance-able so damage bonuses do nothing to it... result: you are stronger at single target the more danger you are it but your AoE is never improved!
With proper balance, this can make the tanker better at single target without stepping on scrapper/brute territory, nor would it improve tanker herding capabilities.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:
There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.
These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this was in 2005. I only brought it up now because of the sense of deja vu I was experiencing.
I did think that way. I don't now. I got better.
*sounds of electro-shock therapy*
[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, it is a smart thing. If there was a way to make tankers be at risk but be strong ST I would be tottally behi.l.... hmmm.... i think it CAN be done...
Hmmm...
Let me see....
Give tanker a FoeCount aura that just serves as a count of foes that are surrounding him... this aura "counts" foe rank, so .33 points for a minion, .66 points for a lt, etcetera... make an inner radius/outter radius play so that the very very near by foes count more than the further foes..
Now, give all single target attacks on the tanker extra bonus damage that is multiplied by the number of critters around you, this damage is not enhance-able so damage bonuses do nothing to it... result: you are stronger at single target the more danger you are it but your AoE is never improved!
With proper balance, this can make the tanker better at single target without stepping on scrapper/brute territory, nor would it improve tanker herding capabilities.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it sounds good to me. But with all ideas here, it's having the majority support that makes-or-breaks.
Personally speaking, I would love to have any concept implemented that improves Tankers to more my view of how they should play. I would. It's only natural. But I'm also happy (resigned?) to playing them as the Devs view them, not just how I want them to be.
But, back to your suggestion above. It's superb. It's the sort of balancing mechanic I could never think of. But the Litmus test is whether it's equally accepted - or just positively contemplated - by the rest.
*waits with bated breath* 
That'd be fine if it doesn't make much of a load on the servers. Still wouldn't be enough for some people who apparently insist on doing enough damage to solo an AV on any Tanker combo, though honestly they don't count as sensible, and are thus disqualified from grown-up talk 
.
Still don't really find a need for this though, as it's generally quite easy to solo anything short of an AV as is. That is, unless as part of this change, Tanker base damage was actually dropped such that a buff with 3 minions in range would bring them back to roughly where they are now. That'd allow for high peaks but lower valleys. It'd also make things suck in the lower levels and probably feel slower levelling into the 20s.
In other words, a change that would be fun and exciting in the higher levels, where your survivability is good enough to handle large numbers of foes, but something that, due to balancing reasons, would make the low levels more painful than they are now.
[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, this is old news. But I thought it's interesting that 4 years later, we're talking about the same thing.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's because four years later, the problem still exists.
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no comic book Tankers
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just semantics.
Tankers are still no closer to the super heroes in comics and other media who have powers like super strength and invulnerability. They don't meet the reasonable expectations people have for characters with powers like those, because such characters are typically heavy hitters who deal considerable damage and Tankers are mediocre damage decoys.
CoH is it's own universe, fine. People still have expectations based on other media and past experience and the developers should make a reasonable attempt to line up with that. Fire Blast should deal fire damage. Katanas are fairly fast weapons. Ice slows people down. With Tankers, they failed to reasonably live up to many people's expectations. Emmert admitted to that.
So the question is, if four years later people are still talking about it and complaining the same complaints, why is that not a red flag to the current developers that something should be done about it?
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Personally speaking, I would love to have any concept implemented that improves Tankers to more my view of how they should play. I would. It's only natural. But I'm also happy (resigned?) to playing them as the Devs view them
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to see you let them break you.
Perhaps you're not the Tanker you thought you were.
[ QUOTE ]
I've accepted that what I want isn't always what others want.
[/ QUOTE ]
In this case, the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Tankers can be closer to being heavy hitters and not negatively impact anyone who likes them as is.
.
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Well, it sounds good to me. But with all ideas here, it's having the majority support that makes-or-breaks
[/ QUOTE ]
Only one vote really matters: Castle's. He does not implement things based on pure popularity voting because, well, what do players know! He would look at things based on how good it sounds to balance out and then gather votes where it matters: a Dev Team meeting.
I always sort of pictured tankers as heavy hitting...but in return for horrendous recharge times.
So, yeah, you can bust out a top notch damaging more for half a boss' health without build up, but that attack isn't coming back for awhile, a long while. And other than that, you're stuck using your less impressive attacks to whittle him down.
It isn't a great idea, I know, but I kinda think of a tanker like a cheetah in a way, can use it's great power, but not for very long/often.
[ QUOTE ]
That'd be fine if it doesn't make much of a load on the servers. Still wouldn't be enough for some people who apparently insist on doing enough damage to solo an AV on any Tanker combo, though honestly they don't count as sensible, and are thus disqualified from grown-up talk .
[/ QUOTE ]
Properly balanced it won't be the key to soloing AVs, however, it will help in AV fights if implemented close to what i noted because the count wold be weighted on the foes surrounding you.
An AV would, off course, yield a much higher value than a boss.
[ QUOTE ]
Still don't really find a need for this though, as it's generally quite easy to solo anything short of an AV as is. That is, unless as part of this change, Tanker base damage was actually dropped such that a buff with 3 minions in range would bring them back to roughly where they are now. That'd allow for high peaks but lower valleys. It'd also make things suck in the lower levels and probably feel slower levelling into the 20s.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker buff:
<ul type="square">[*]In teams, a second tank is redundant and usually undesirable, taken only because the first tank sucks, because nothing else was available while forming the team, or it was a buddy. Damage offensive even if stuck to single target makes the tanker a bit more desirable.[*]Although the tanker does not dies often he soloes slower than scrappers due to lower endurance efficiency. Tankers pay ~50% more end for their attacks than scrappers making them not only kill slower but also use much more endurance. This is not counting the tanker is forced to use his toggles for longer burning even more end if they want to "leverage" their survivability.[*]Going Rogue will bring Masterminds over, and players may realize that masterminds (yes masterminds, not brutes) are a better alternative to tanks in 90% of the game content. (Defenders face a similar threat with Corruptors, and despite arguments to the contrary I honestly can't see such a level of obsoletevity threat to any other AT in any side) [*]Supposedly the devs are trying to make dominators more popular, if popularity is indeed a goal then tankers need a hand too, as they are at the bottom of the hero side popularity barrel, and it's likely the last two points are the reasons. [/list]
Rewarding the tanker that surrounds himself with dangerous foes with more ST damage would help leverage survivability in a meaningful way.
Giving tankers more ST damage would make multiple tankers work better while together.
The "i can solo well" argument does not go far because, well, I was able to solo my Dominators and look what they doing to them now. Other than defenders (perhaps personal play-style) I have never had issues soloing any AT, yet most ATs have been tweaked in one way or another.
[ QUOTE ]
In other words, a change that would be fun and exciting in the higher levels, where your survivability is good enough to handle large numbers of foes, but something that, due to balancing reasons, would make the low levels more painful than they are now.
[/ QUOTE ]
A damage boost that rewards you for any foe in range would be a buff at any level of play.
[ QUOTE ]
Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker damage buff:
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not refer to anything we talk about here as a 'tanker damage buff'.
That makes it sound as if people are seeking a blanket increse to Tanker damage or damage mod change, and I don't think anyone here is advocating that.
'Tanker offense change' seems more accurate to me, because that also includes ideas like stacking -res debuffs on attacks people have suggested and such.
.
[ QUOTE ]
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Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker damage buff:
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not refer to anything we talk about here as a 'tanker damage buff'.
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That skipped my proofreading, i didnt wanted to note damage buff but not because of what you note, instead because there are other altenratives that may make tannkers viable other than offensive boosts of any type.
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[ QUOTE ]
Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker damage buff:
[/ QUOTE ]
Let's not refer to anything we talk about here as a 'tanker damage buff'.
That makes it sound as if people are seeking a blanket increse to Tanker damage or damage mod change, and I don't think anyone here is advocating that.
'Tanker offense change' seems more accurate to me, because that also includes ideas like stacking -res debuffs on attacks people have suggested and such.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's also important to note that merely increasing tanker damage output does nothing to make them stand out from the other melee archetypes which I believe was one of the points to this exercise.
[ QUOTE ]
Although the tanker does not dies often he soloes slower than scrappers due to lower endurance efficiency. Tankers pay ~50% more end for their attacks than scrappers making them not only kill slower but also use much more endurance. This is not counting the tanker is forced to use his toggles for longer burning even more end if they want to "leverage" their survivability.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why not take a page out of Champions' book and give tankers' Tier 1 and Tier 2 attacks an endurance building effect to help with endurance management?
Or.....
Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to see you let them break you.
Perhaps you're not the Tanker you thought you were.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. You're entitled to your opinion - and making more half-arsed comments about my alleged 'lack of Tanker-ingness' as some kind of reverse psychological baiting if it makes you feel better - but at the end of the day, I'm not losing sleep over it.
I'm playing - and enjoying - the world they created. Do I want to have it differently? Of course. But until I make my own, I'll just be grateful they made this game.
But roll on J_B.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry to see you let them break you.
Perhaps you're not the Tanker you thought you were.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. You're entitled to your opinion - and making more half-arsed comments about my alleged 'lack of Tanker-ingness' as some kind of reverse psychological baiting if it makes you feel better - but at the end of the day, I'm not losing sleep over it.
I'm playing - and enjoying - the world they created. Do I want to have it differently? Of course. But until I make my own, I'll just be grateful they made this game.
But roll on J_B.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said sir!
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That'd be fine if it doesn't make much of a load on the servers. Still wouldn't be enough for some people who apparently insist on doing enough damage to solo an AV on any Tanker combo, though honestly they don't count as sensible, and are thus disqualified from grown-up talk .
[/ QUOTE ]
Properly balanced it won't be the key to soloing AVs, however, it will help in AV fights if implemented close to what i noted because the count wold be weighted on the foes surrounding you.
An AV would, off course, yield a much higher value than a boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is a damage boost even necessary on a team, though?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Still don't really find a need for this though, as it's generally quite easy to solo anything short of an AV as is. That is, unless as part of this change, Tanker base damage was actually dropped such that a buff with 3 minions in range would bring them back to roughly where they are now. That'd allow for high peaks but lower valleys. It'd also make things suck in the lower levels and probably feel slower levelling into the 20s.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here are the real reasons I see for a tanker buff:
<ul type="square">[*]In teams, a second tank is redundant and usually undesirable, taken only because the first tank sucks, because nothing else was available while forming the team, or it was a buddy. Damage offensive even if stuck to single target makes the tanker a bit more desirable.[*]Although the tanker does not dies often he soloes slower than scrappers due to lower endurance efficiency. Tankers pay ~50% more end for their attacks than scrappers making them not only kill slower but also use much more endurance. This is not counting the tanker is forced to use his toggles for longer burning even more end if they want to "leverage" their survivability.[*]Going Rogue will bring Masterminds over, and players may realize that masterminds (yes masterminds, not brutes) are a better alternative to tanks in 90% of the game content. (Defenders face a similar threat with Corruptors, and despite arguments to the contrary I honestly can't see such a level of obsoletevity threat to any other AT in any side) [*]Supposedly the devs are trying to make dominators more popular, if popularity is indeed a goal then tankers need a hand too, as they are at the bottom of the hero side popularity barrel, and it's likely the last two points are the reasons. [/list]
Rewarding the tanker that surrounds himself with dangerous foes with more ST damage would help leverage survivability in a meaningful way.
[/ QUOTE ]
It would also increase survivability, especially considering the existing amount of ST and AoE mitigation available to Tankers.
[ QUOTE ]
Giving tankers more ST damage would make multiple tankers work better while together.
[/ QUOTE ]
Under less threat, since they're being defeated faster, so the boost may be short-lived and less noticeable. Especially considering the usage of AoEs in those circumstances.
[ QUOTE ]
The "i can solo well" argument does not go far because, well, I was able to solo my Dominators and look what they doing to them now. Other than defenders (perhaps personal play-style) I have never had issues soloing any AT, yet most ATs have been tweaked in one way or another.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think the "I can/can't solo well" argument was even the premise of the Dom changes. It seems to be a change in order to give Doms more team purpose, especially in situations where control is more or less mitigated (AVs).
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In other words, a change that would be fun and exciting in the higher levels, where your survivability is good enough to handle large numbers of foes, but something that, due to balancing reasons, would make the low levels more painful than they are now.
[/ QUOTE ]
A damage boost that rewards you for any foe in range would be a buff at any level of play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Only assuming that Tanker damage mods aren't re-balanced to keep them from being OP. Without a change, it seems more than easy enough to womp that tough boss in seconds and then AoE the numerous minions to smithereens--such a situation, honestly, seems to make me believe that "number of enemies" isn't as good of a gauge as perhaps level of enemy * rank with quickly diminishing returns.
All-in-all though, I don't think a damage increase is really warranted. I'd prefer something that straight out does something for the team the Tanker is protecting. I do not see soloing as a problem that Tankers have.
No, I'm genuinely sorry.
If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.
Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.
I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no comic book Tankers
[/ QUOTE ]
That's just semantics.
[/ QUOTE ]
Says the man who was only recently arguing the importance of a picture of a Clockwork Boss over that of a picture of a Psychic Clockwork Boss.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm genuinely sorry.
If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.
Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.
I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Hah, not me, I know I sure don't have any fun...ever!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm genuinely sorry.
If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.
Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.
I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"
[/ QUOTE ]
We hates nasty Tankerses....
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
A while ago, I posted a possible alternative Super Strength set. It contained only a couple of attacks, hard hitting and long recharge.
People will say, but people don't want to stand around doing nothing! I say, you're right. It's frustrating not being able to do anything while the enemy is taking you apart (part of why holds and endurance issues are so reviled), which is why the rest of the set did other things with that great strength.
For example, I suggested the ability to tear a huge chunk of ground up and use it as a shield (mimicing PFF). I suggested a long backand swat that sent foes flying for little damage. You could easily provide Tankers with Super Strong crowd control abilities that aren't precisely attacks to fill in the recharge times on harder hitting, slower attacks.
Of course, that would mean rewriting the whole set, and they're not about to do that.
<QR>
My main gripe with the tanker class has been that there is nothing that really makes it unique. Sure it can take a load of damage, but so can the Brute, and in most cases, even the scrapper. Those two ATs practically laugh in the face of the tank as they can take what he can, yet still give what he can't. The brute was made to be an offensive juggarnaut, so therefore, they got fury; the scrapper was made to be hand-to-hand master, so therefore, they got criticals.
The tank on the otherhand has nothing going for it. Sure he can agitate others by punching on their friends, but that effect is useless when one already has an offensive aura combined with taunt. The brute and the scrapper are supposed to dish out the damage, so therefore, you gave them inherents that aid them with the endeavor, the tanker is supposed to take the damage, so therefore, give him something that will actually help him take the said damage.
A simple proposal is reversal of the Brute's fury bar. Instead of giving tanks more damage the longer they stay in a fight, give them more resistance/defense. Change the name from gauntlet to resilient.
Just my 2 cents...
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
Great_Briton, your analysis is very good, but Statesman had a good point and it's one that Arcanaville keeps trying to push down people's throats because players refuse to understand it:
There are no comic book Tankers.
There are no comic book Scrappers.
These are CoH concepts, constructs made for this game with specific gameplay patterns in mind.
Mind you, I ironically think you had a good point on game design in general, Super Strong and extremely survivable entities that are restricted to single target damage while you make some one that can kill groups much faster but be much more nimble, would had been quite a balanced way to go.
Off course then you would retain just one thing: The tanker would be overly sturdy, he would have no reason to surround himself by foes therefore he would always be safe in solo play. Something that is true now but AoE damage motivates tankers to herd more foes that start proving to be a challenge.
But this would mean redesigning the AT as a whole, not just the tankers but also the brutes and stalkers because once you give amazing ST damage to tankers you are forced to give something to all other melers that are only good at ST damage.