[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm genuinely sorry.
If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.
Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.
I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, your sarcasm illuminates a bitter fact.
Very often, I go to Chapters and browse the graphic novels and old comic compilations (such as Essential Avengers, depicting the first several issues of that series). Reading these gets me into the comic book frame and I come to CoH, all excited to have my own adventures.
Generally, after about 15 minutes of play, it stops being fun. Why does the excitement and fun go away?
Because the game doesn't feel like the comics. Yes, it's a subjective thing, but it's brought on by objective truths. Super Strong characters CAN'T lift things. Invulnerable characters ARE being brought down by escaped prisoners with handguns or ancient romans with swords. Detective characters have NOTHING to detect as NPCs do all the thinking for you.
And, of course, the strong men of the game don't hit as hard as the strong men in the comics.
And that's the bottom line. It's all of this that takes away the fun.
I'm all for doing something to help Tankers, but the reality is there's a lot to fix, and I don't really believe it will ever happen.
Something interesting....
Thunderbird 1 - Class 2 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and durability. (INV/SS tanker)
Spider-Man - Class 10 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and agility. (MA/SR scrapper)
I guess some scrappers can hit harder than some tankers in the Marvel Universe.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
Is a damage boost even necessary on a team, though?
[/ QUOTE ]
Something is needed in a team to make a second tanker useful. ST damage is the less intrusive thing I can think off. It's even less intrusive than the often desired Bodyguard as Bodyguard has the potential side effect of making the team WAY too safe.
[ QUOTE ]
It would also increase survivability, especially considering the existing amount of ST and AoE mitigation available to Tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]
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Under less threat, since they're being defeated faster, so the boost may be short-lived and less noticeable. Especially considering the usage of AoEs in those circumstances.
[/ QUOTE ]
The funny thing is, the faster you kill the faster you loose damage. You may find eventually sticking to old fashioned AoE damage (that is not buffed at all, just as it always was) may be a better strategy.
As for AoE mitigation, its always been there and would not change at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the "I can/can't solo well" argument was even the premise of the Dom changes. It seems to be a change in order to give Doms more team purpose, especially in situations where control is more or less mitigated (AVs).
[/ QUOTE ]
The point? If it was not a point it means that we can indeed buff tanker solo without a point. 
However it was a small point. Doms were considered to, for the most part, perform perfect while in perma domination, and sub par while out of perma-domination. This was in all levels, team or solo.
[ QUOTE ]
Only assuming that Tanker damage mods aren't re-balanced to keep them from being OP. Without a change, it seems more than easy enough to womp that tough boss in seconds and then AoE the numerous minions to smithereens--such a situation, honestly, seems to make me believe that "number of enemies" isn't as good of a gauge as perhaps level of enemy * rank with quickly diminishing returns.
[/ QUOTE ]
You may want to read my very basic proposal again.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, I'm genuinely sorry.
If people had stuck to their guns instead of rolling over and taking it or walking away from the game, Tankers wouldn't be rodeo clowns.
Tankers got screwed over, and people with attitudes like that allowed them to be screwed over.
I'm not trying to bait you into anything, because like I said, I think you've been broken. And the only thing useful broken are pack mules, which appropriately, are what Tankers are little more than.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Damnit, people! How dare you start enjoying this game? Why can't you hang on to your pointless rage!? What do you think this is, some sort of entertainment device!?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing. Got one of these and found the game much more fun since. J_B should try them, they make your characters look SO much better.
hmm, I usually find those Russian Chairs just Oh so comfortable for those terrible long TFs with inadequate teams.
Just tossing this back up on the boards so that it doesn't get swallowed up.
[ QUOTE ]
Why not take a page out of Champions' book and give tankers' Tier 1 and Tier 2 attacks an endurance building effect to help with endurance management?
Or.....
Slightly increase the damage for higher end attacks (ST or AoE or both) but remove their Gauntlet effect. Then increase the number of foes effected by Gauntlet for the Tier 1 through Tier 3 attacks and keep a slight endurance build up for Tier 1 and 2.
[/ QUOTE ]
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
hmm, I usually find those Russian Chairs just Oh so comfortable for those terrible long TFs with inadequate teams.
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking of inadequate teams, I once soloed a 3 man Positron TF with a WP/EM tanker. It was slow and painful but I wanted to see if it could be done.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which ideal though?
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which ideal though?
[/ QUOTE ]
One of the ones that aren't about being a mediocre damage rodeo clown.
.
I think it's hilarious you think of yourself as a rodeo clown.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unlike J_B, I was not able to sit for long on this chair while playing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll sit on my damned throne of bayonets if it helps Tankers get closer to the comic book ideal they should be.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which ideal though?
[/ QUOTE ]
One of the ones that aren't about being a mediocre damage rodeo clown.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
So it's kind of a Henry Ford sort of thing. Tankers can have any buff they want as long as it's damage?
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
You either need fiber, sleep, or a little "companionship" try getting all three and see if your still so set on beating this dead horse.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
[ QUOTE ]
[LIST][*]In teams, a second tank is redundant and usually undesirable, taken only because the first tank sucks, because nothing else was available while forming the team, or it was a buddy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never found this to truly be the case. Yes, a team might not Want the second tanker, but frequently the second tanker IS valuable. There are many many rooms with several groups easily aggrod but not close enough to keep taunted easily. The second tank is very useful there.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
[ QUOTE ]
Something interesting....
Thunderbird 1 - Class 2 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and durability. (INV/SS tanker)
Spider-Man - Class 10 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and agility. (MA/SR scrapper)
I guess some scrappers can hit harder than some tankers in the Marvel Universe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just different concepts. In City of Heroes, the players dictate their own power levels, not the in-game numbers. A normal human vigilante is equal to a cosmic-powered demigod, as far as game mechanics go.
[ QUOTE ]
I've never found this to truly be the case. Yes, a team might not Want the second tanker, but frequently the second tanker IS valuable. There are many many rooms with several groups easily aggrod but not close enough to keep taunted easily. The second tank is very useful there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. Multiple Tanks can also pull those groups together to wipe them out with AoEs even quicker. Or you can split up the team to speed up a defeat all mission.
Or you can just go all Tanks and be a rolling ball of destruction. 
[ QUOTE ]
Super Strong characters CAN'T lift things. Invulnerable characters ARE being brought down by escaped prisoners with handguns or ancient romans with swords. Detective characters have NOTHING to detect as NPCs do all the thinking for you.
And, of course, the strong men of the game don't hit as hard as the strong men in the comics.
And that's the bottom line. It's all of this that takes away the fun.
I'm all for doing something to help Tankers, but the reality is there's a lot to fix, and I don't really believe it will ever happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, Super Strong characters CAN lift things, but the options of things they can lift is very limited. If there were an environmental interaction system in place, groovy, but there isn't (yet).
And I'm not sure about your invulnerable characters, but mine are getting shot with hundreds of bullets in a matter of minutes and not only are they still standing, they aren't even breathing heavy. Over a dozen genetically enhanced monstrosity with otherwise lethal implements surgically grafted onto them trying to hack away at me, and they don't even break skin.
My characters find clues on a regular basis and determine what's important and what isn't, often to the result of finding a kidnapped victim or other evil hideout.
And my heroes don't hit as hard as the upper-tier heroes from comic books, because the levels of power displayed in those books would be absolutely disgusting from a gameplay perspective.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[LIST][*]In teams, a second tank is redundant and usually undesirable, taken only because the first tank sucks, because nothing else was available while forming the team, or it was a buddy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've never found this to truly be the case. Yes, a team might not Want the second tanker, but frequently the second tanker IS valuable. There are many many rooms with several groups easily aggrod but not close enough to keep taunted easily. The second tank is very useful there.
[/ QUOTE ]
And there are ways other than simply increasing damage to improve multiple tanker utility on teams. What follows is an amalgam of some of the ideas that have been tossed around thus far.
[ QUOTE ]
I think a Competition/Opposition buff effect that is applied as a tanker attacks would be great. Say for the first attack in melee the tanker and all teammates within a certain radius of the tanker (large enough to keep squishies outside of AoE splash damage) get a 120 second defense buff. The buff power would then have a cool down period of 110 to 115 seconds before being available again. This would mean that in extended battles the buff remains in place as long as the tanker is still attacking.
Fix it so that buffs from the same tanker will not stack but those from multiple tankers will. The code for this already exists somewhere in the game so it shouldn't be too difficult.
Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%) that switches to Maneuvers when teamed. This way the mechanic would help tankers both in teams and out as well as be indicative of how their strategy changes for each situation. On a team they hold back because someone might get hurt, that someone being one of their teammates, but solo they can really let go and hang the collateral damage.
[/ QUOTE ]
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a nod to Johnny, allow Competition/Opposition to afford solo tanks a built in Assault buff (say 12%)
[/ QUOTE ]
On a Tanker, a 12% damage buff is nothing. That's less than half a small red inspiration.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Something interesting....
Thunderbird 1 - Class 2 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and durability. (INV/SS tanker)
Spider-Man - Class 10 Super Strength
Abilities - Superhuman strength and agility. (MA/SR scrapper)
I guess some scrappers can hit harder than some tankers in the Marvel Universe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just different concepts. In City of Heroes, the players dictate their own power levels, not the in-game numbers. A normal human vigilante is equal to a cosmic-powered demigod, as far as game mechanics go.
[/ QUOTE ]
Understood, I was just pointing out that using the canon as an example of how things "should be" in the game isn't all that reliable. By Marvel standards a controller type exists that is "stronger" than Johnny's example of an ideal tanker.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never found this to truly be the case. Yes, a team might not Want the second tanker, but frequently the second tanker IS valuable. There are many many rooms with several groups easily aggrod but not close enough to keep taunted easily. The second tank is very useful there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely. Multiple Tanks can also pull those groups together to wipe them out with AoEs even quicker. Or you can split up the team to speed up a defeat all mission.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with these tactics being possible on most of the missions, although they can work. However, even if they were accepted you can't stretch that to a third tank.
[ QUOTE ]
Or you can just go all Tanks and be a rolling ball of destruction.
[/ QUOTE ]
Immortally slow destruction
[ QUOTE ]
Something is needed in a team to make a second tanker useful. ST damage is the less intrusive thing I can think off. It's even less intrusive than the often desired Bodyguard as Bodyguard has the potential side effect of making the team WAY too safe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Starsman: Comments like yours above makes me wonder if my idea of a "Single Target Fury" isn't a bad idea. Some else had made the suggestion that it not be an anchor like I mentioned, but shifted target to target as you switched.
Oops. Grabbed wrong link. Fixed.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Super Strong characters CAN'T lift things. Invulnerable characters ARE being brought down by escaped prisoners with handguns or ancient romans with swords. Detective characters have NOTHING to detect as NPCs do all the thinking for you.
And, of course, the strong men of the game don't hit as hard as the strong men in the comics.
And that's the bottom line. It's all of this that takes away the fun.
I'm all for doing something to help Tankers, but the reality is there's a lot to fix, and I don't really believe it will ever happen.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, Super Strong characters CAN lift things, but the options of things they can lift is very limited. If there were an environmental interaction system in place, groovy, but there isn't (yet).
And I'm not sure about your invulnerable characters, but mine are getting shot with hundreds of bullets in a matter of minutes and not only are they still standing, they aren't even breathing heavy. Over a dozen genetically enhanced monstrosity with otherwise lethal implements surgically grafted onto them trying to hack away at me, and they don't even break skin.
My characters find clues on a regular basis and determine what's important and what isn't, often to the result of finding a kidnapped victim or other evil hideout.
And my heroes don't hit as hard as the upper-tier heroes from comic books, because the levels of power displayed in those books would be absolutely disgusting from a gameplay perspective.
[/ QUOTE ]
Tankers can lift a patio stone. I can lift a patio stone (though I'll admit if I were to throw it, it sure wouldn't go very far).
Go to Brickstown at L30ish, and you'll find guys with handguns chewing you up. This after you've faced weapons many times more powerful. There's no consistency. Go to Cimerora, where you can delight to being minced by guys with sticks and normal swords.
You go and gather things the NPCs tell you to. They do the thinking, you're just the muscle. You could easily go through this whole game and never actually read anything.
Your characters don't hit as hard as ANYONE else. PCs are third stringers, at best.
Today, I made a MA mission. In it were several elite bosses representing my own characters (using the power sets of those characters). There were also several Elite Boss allies, also my own characters.
The typical battle went like this:
I attack! I do 40 damage (perhaps 1% of his health) with my War Mace! Canadian Shield attacks back with Punch, doing 400 damage (which is about a quarter of my health). Stalwart Star, my ally, attacks, doing 578 damage. I attack again, doing 28 damage. Canadian Shield KO Blows me for 748 damage. I retreat and watch the actual superheroes fight, since I'm less than nothing.
This is what's depressing. You read the comics, and you see the heroes fighting the villains, trading mighty blow for mighty blow. In CoH, the heroes (us) are nothing compared to them. Seeing this over and over is disheartening, and takes away the fun.
You realize you just used a lack of consistency as a negative comparison from this game to comic books, right? I'll let you guess why that's so funny.
Again, there's a lot of missions where you aren't asked to gather anything, but contain glowies (particularly missions in the Steel Canyon/Skyway range) that have further clues.
If our characters could hit exactly as hard as the NPC's could, this game would be terribly easy. Well, more so. The fact that so much of this game gets trivialized by single players even with the NPC's doing more damage should tell you something.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
in response to the actual "topic"
I think tankers do fine damage. The only sets that we lacking IMO, were Ice and Mace, and they got altered to more reasonable sets.
Do I want to see some things changed? yes, who doesn't? But i can't create a game, so I'll play this one.