I disagree, because you're missing the point.
Champions allowed you to make two completely different characters that were equally effective, but in different ways.
12d6 damage was 12d6 damage, regardless of whether it was a super strong punch or an energy blast. You could make a character with high defenses, or high DCV, and have them be equally well protected.
Sure, a GM was required to prevent some aberrations, but the point I was making remains valid.
If everyone is the same, there's balance. That's the point of my long post about how I would have designed the game. Everyone is the same. The powers are all the same. The difference comes from concept and style (eg. animations, etc.).
That's why I say that everyone could be a Tankmage, and the game could still work. Of course, I don't believe a complete, rounded character has to be defined as a Tankmage.
(I remember making a Champions character for a laugh, who had the power to make other people intangble, 0 endurance, continuing, no concious control. The effect was that you make the Juggernaut intangible, and he can rage to his heart's content; he can't do any damage because he's not solid. Then you leave him that way. The GM nixed him, of course.)
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I disagree, because you're missing the point.
Champions allowed you to make two completely different characters that were equally effective, but in different ways.
12d6 damage was 12d6 damage, regardless of whether it was a super strong punch or an energy blast. You could make a character with high defenses, or high DCV, and have them be equally well protected.
Sure, a GM was required to prevent some aberrations, but the point I was making remains valid.
If everyone is the same, there's balance. That's the point of my long post about how I would have designed the game. Everyone is the same. The powers are all the same. The difference comes from concept and style (eg. animations, etc.).
That's why I say that everyone could be a Tankmage, and the game could still work. Of course, I don't believe a complete, rounded character has to be defined as a Tankmage.
(I remember making a Champions character for a laugh, who had the power to make other people intangble, 0 endurance, continuing, no concious control. The effect was that you make the Juggernaut intangible, and he can rage to his heart's content; he can't do any damage because he's not solid. Then you leave him that way. The GM nixed him, of course.)
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I believe that last part of your statement proved Talen's point.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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That said; these days we do seem to be dealing with a Kinder-Gentler Johnny.
Have you been replaced by a Nemisis Automaton?
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Just proving wrong the people who said attitude matters. Since turning the dial down I've gotten less results in anything I campaign for.
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Correlation does not equal Causation. If you're out to prove something, do it right.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Like twenty seconds. How much faster should tankers be at killing red bosses?
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How fast can Brutes and Scrappers do it? That fast, but occasionally faster.
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(I remember making a Champions character for a laugh, who had the power to make other people intangble, 0 endurance, continuing, no concious control. The effect was that you make the Juggernaut intangible, and he can rage to his heart's content; he can't do any damage because he's not solid. Then you leave him that way. The GM nixed him, of course.)
[/ QUOTE ]I repeat. Do you even listen to yourself?
And I repeat, you're looking at one instance the game cannot replicate and that could easily be excluded because the CoH game system ISN'T Champions.
I only cited Champions as a game that made it possible (possible does not equal CERTAIN) to create very different characters of equal capability.
Aett asserted it couldn't be done, I said it could, and provided Champions as an example where standardization created balance.
Go back and look at my long post (or woudl it be easier to repost it?). It describes something along these lines.
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And I repeat, you're looking at one instance the game cannot replicate and that could easily be excluded because the CoH game system ISN'T Champions.
I only cited Champions as a game that made it possible (possible does not equal CERTAIN) to create very different characters of equal capability.
[/ QUOTE ]While completely and utterly missing that none of the balance in the system of which you spoke is replicateable or has anything to do with the system at all. Point-based pen-and-paper systems are always unbalanced, because the jackass designers always put forward the dopey idea 'Well, there's a GM there to balance it' and that's why you have travesties like the Champs scenario you outlined.
Good freaking grief. You were doing so well. Remember what I said: Understand, consider, then propose. You are leaping to propositions without understanding or considering.
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I only cited Champions as a game that made it possible (possible does not equal CERTAIN) to create very different characters of equal capability.
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CoH does the same thing. Archetypes and power combinations work in very different ways- offensive/defensive, support/solo- but are relatively equal in capability. Any combination of characters can form an effective team.
Yes, they're far from perfectly balanced, but MMOs are forever a work in progress when it comes to that.
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I only cited Champions as a game that made it possible (possible does not equal CERTAIN) to create very different characters of equal capability.
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CoH does the same thing. Archetypes and power combinations work in very different ways- offensive/defensive, support/solo- but are relatively equal in capability. Any combination of characters can form an effective team.
Yes, they're far from perfectly balanced, but MMOs are forever a work in progress when it comes to that.
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Yeah, I'm a little confused as to how he's not seeing this possibility with CoX. I have Tankers, Scrappers, Blasters, Controllers, Masterminds, and a Stalker that can solo or team effectively in this game. They all look and play differently as well, so there is a lot of variation available to us.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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And I repeat, you're looking at one instance the game cannot replicate and that could easily be excluded because the CoH game system ISN'T Champions.
I only cited Champions as a game that made it possible (possible does not equal CERTAIN) to create very different characters of equal capability.
Aett asserted it couldn't be done, I said it could, and provided Champions as an example where standardization created balance.
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Except Champions doesn't create balance, it merely allows for balance. To actually achieve balance it needs the input of an intelligent arbiter, i.e. a GM, which means it has no baring on the achievability of balance in a MMO setting since sufficent AI dosn't exist yet and giving every player their own GM is unrealistic.
<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
Again, the point I'm making is that there was balance in capability.
All characters in Champions had access to the same damage output, the damae defenses, the same everything, whatever the style of the character. The reason was equivalency. An Energy Blast that did 12d6 damage was equivalent to a punch that did 12d6 damage.
CoH doesn't allow for this. Different ATs have different levels of defense and offense. When you have this situation, it's more difficult (not saying impossible) to establish balance. That's all I'm saying.
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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.
And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.
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No, it's actually easier to establish balance with set ATs and powersets because the combinations are in a much smaller number, which allows for much better control and testing compared to a more open system such as Champions.
While the Champions PnP system can be balanced, it generally relies on an instance-per-instance, character-per-character decision. Such decisions are best made by living people with half a shred of common sense, instead of an inflexible computer system.
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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.
And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.
.
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When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.
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What tanker forms an unbroken attack chain using neither Hasten nor recharge slotting??
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Any one that takes enough attacks, possibly including Brawl or Pool Power attacks? Not that it's a great chain, but the smaller gaps (for a better chain) and overall damage far supersede a Kheldian in Dwarf form, all without having to temporarily drop HP and resistances. In short: it's easier to make a solid attack chain with a Tanker than a Dwarf.
The points are:
1) it's easier to form an attack chain with a full AT rather than a Kheldian form
2) there's no real sense of progression in the form's powers
3) using the same 3-4 moderate damage attacks powers gets boring fast and ends up taking longer to defeat enemies.
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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.
And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.
.
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When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.
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In J_B's defense, he does bring alot of evidence to the discussion, but it's just almost entirely anecdotal.
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No, it's actually easier to establish balance with set ATs and powersets because the combinations are in a much smaller number, which allows for much better control and testing compared to a more open system such as Champions.
While the Champions PnP system can be balanced, it generally relies on an instance-per-instance, character-per-character decision. Such decisions are best made by living people with half a shred of common sense, instead of an inflexible computer system.
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And in a PnP situation you are only having to balance the campaign against 6 to 8 different players rather than ~200,000 different players.
PnP games also tend to be ruled by general consensus. Unless the GM is very dictatorial, everyone involved agrees on what is and is not acceptable in their world. You can't do that in an MMO due to sheer numbers and the fact that a good portion of the people involved are only interested in their own game play experience.
Lastly, most PnP games that I have run into do not limit your leveling ability to the amount of damage that you can deliver like most of the MMOs out there. GMs can and will award experience for quick thinking, creativity and use of non-combat skills.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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In J_B's defense, he does bring alot of evidence to the discussion, but it's just almost entirely anecdotal.
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Anecdotal evidence might as well not even exist when discussing balance in an MMO. To this discussion it might as well be no evidence, particularly for the self-appointed crusader for his "cause".
It is by far the easiest to defeat which is why so many people simply respond. "That is not my experience." and completely negate his "argument".
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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.
And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.
.
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When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.
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In J_B's defense, he does bring alot of evidence to the discussion, but it's just almost entirely anecdotal.
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How can evidence be anecdotal? Don't we call those ... opinions?
*ducks the sarcasm bat*
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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.
And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.
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In J_B's defense, he does bring alot of evidence to the discussion, but it's just almost entirely anecdotal.
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How can evidence be anecdotal? Don't we call those ... opinions?
*ducks the sarcasm bat*
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So you're saying that, in your experience, evidence can't be anecdotal? 
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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<pokes head in thread> Anything new....... </pulls head back out>
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Yeah Ace. Positron popped in to say that since the same damn topic has been coming up every week for three years that they're going to actually do something about it instead of ignoring it and wishing it goes away.
And then my alarm went off, I woke up, took a shower and had my coffee.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.
[/ QUOTE ]
In J_B's defense, he does bring alot of evidence to the discussion, but it's just almost entirely anecdotal.
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How can evidence be anecdotal? Don't we call those ... opinions?
*ducks the sarcasm bat*
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So you're saying that, in your experience, evidence can't be anecdotal?
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Actually, that reminds me of a story..... 
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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When you always have the same poster throw the thread off topic and push to that same topic for three years ranting and raving without any evidence at all, I doubt they will listen.
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Yeah, by now Johnny's need for attention is working against him. The devs aren't stupid- they know the difference between a thread that's popular because a lot of people are interested in the discussion, and a thread that's popular because no one can resist Johnny's "kick me" sign.
I knew this guy who believed in anecdotal evidence. Got hit by a truck.
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I IO'd out my Dwarf attacks to make a viable chain, so I took one of the options that is not Hasten (though both Kheldians have it for other reasons), and only hit Hasten for those other reasons not attack chain related. I can keep Hasten constantly running as well as any good Kheldian player, but I don't do it for attack reasons.
The point is that Kheldians cannot form an unbroken attack chain without these methods (sacrificing other slotting for recharge, using IOs, or using Hasten constantly). Tankers can. There's also the diversity and excitement of a larger number of attacks, and the need to either hit Dwarf's Taunt and/or PbAoE all the time to keep aggro.
The point was that I don't think Kheldians step on other ATs toes because of their limitations. They can emulate other ATs to a very limited point, but those modes in-and-of-themselves don't rival those other ATs.
A stancing Tanker would come a lot closer to Scrappers than a Dwarf comes to a Tanker or Nova to Blaster, simply due to having entire powersets at their disposal.
From what Starsman is saying about his proposal, though there would be ways to "make it work," it seems a bit too complicated, given the way this game generally seems to strive to simplify.
So while I personally think stances would be lovely, I simply don't think that at this time it's ever likely to happen.
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What tanker forms an unbroken attack chain using neither Hasten nor recharge slotting??
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.