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...little more backup than "but comic book tankers..." which even the devs have noted is not a valid statement.
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I disagree with this. We're playing a game based on comic books, so it seems to me that the expectation that the game should behave like the comic books is paramount. That said, Game Balance MUST be retained.
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Can't be done. It really can't. Comic books themselves don't behave like each other, within the same series or between different series. Should we have people with the power level of Superman, or Batman? Of the Silver Surfer, or Kitty Pride? Of the Hulk, or Thunderbird? These characters have vastly different power levels, but are all in the comics. How do you get the game to behave like a Silver Surfer comic, and also like the Batman comic? You can't. You just can't.
So, what you aim for is trying to get as decently close as possible, within the framework of the game. This game, at inception, didn't have ATs. You could choose any two power sets you wanted. It was closer to the comics than the game is today, with a wider range of power levels in it. You could have Tank-Mages, and you could have complete gimps, with no offense except brawl. How do you balance a game with that wide of a power level difference? You also have people tending to choose the path of least resistance, often times choosing it over concept. As such, people tended to make more Tank-Mages, able to survive and dish out a ton of damage. It made the game ridiculously easy.
Because of that, the Devs made the AT system. The AT system does not exist in the comics. It just doesn't. You have characters that emulate certain ATs (or, more accurately, the ATs emulate those characters), but you never get exacts. Each character in the comics can usually do something that this game won't allow them to do. The Ancillary Pools try to fill in these gaps to some extent, but can't cover every case. Conversely, we have characters in the comics that would be woefully underbalanced if they came into this game (Storm would have Storm Summoning, but no blasts, for instance; the Invisible Woman would have almost no offense at all).
This game is an MMO inspired by comic books. It is NOT a comic book MMO. It has taken a specific power level, and used that as a baseline for it's characters to have. It then goes from there to work out how each AT will fit into that baseline level. When doing so, it will likely divert largely from the source material. Sure, the Devs can try to keep it as close as they can, but it's not going to be very close. To get closer, you need to not be an MMO, where balance issues don't need to be addressed, and you can just imitate a specific character and not worry about different power levels between your characters.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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...little more backup than "but comic book tankers..." which even the devs have noted is not a valid statement.
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I disagree with this. We're playing a game based on comic books, so it seems to me that the expectation that the game should behave like the comic books is paramount. That said, Game Balance MUST be retained.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't be done. It really can't. Comic books themselves don't behave like each other, within the same series or between different series. Should we have people with the power level of Superman, or Batman? Of the Silver Surfer, or Kitty Pride? Of the Hulk, or Thunderbird? These characters have vastly different power levels, but are all in the comics. How do you get the game to behave like a Silver Surfer comic, and also like the Batman comic? You can't. You just can't.
So, what you aim for is trying to get as decently close as possible, within the framework of the game. This game, at inception, didn't have ATs. You could choose any two power sets you wanted. It was closer to the comics than the game is today, with a wider range of power levels in it. You could have Tank-Mages, and you could have complete gimps, with no offense except brawl. How do you balance a game with that wide of a power level difference? You also have people tending to choose the path of least resistance, often times choosing it over concept. As such, people tended to make more Tank-Mages, able to survive and dish out a ton of damage. It made the game ridiculously easy.
Because of that, the Devs made the AT system. The AT system does not exist in the comics. It just doesn't. You have characters that emulate certain ATs (or, more accurately, the ATs emulate those characters), but you never get exacts. Each character in the comics can usually do something that this game won't allow them to do. The Ancillary Pools try to fill in these gaps to some extent, but can't cover every case. Conversely, we have characters in the comics that would be woefully underbalanced if they came into this game (Storm would have Storm Summoning, but no blasts, for instance; the Invisible Woman would have almost no offense at all).
This game is an MMO inspired by comic books. It is NOT a comic book MMO. It has taken a specific power level, and used that as a baseline for it's characters to have. It then goes from there to work out how each AT will fit into that baseline level. When doing so, it will likely divert largely from the source material. Sure, the Devs can try to keep it as close as they can, but it's not going to be very close. To get closer, you need to not be an MMO, where balance issues don't need to be addressed, and you can just imitate a specific character and not worry about different power levels between your characters.
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I agree with this comment wholeheartedly. And I believe the fact that "this is an MMO with Super Hero Elements, not a Super Hero MMO" is about the best we can do.
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...little more backup than "but comic book tankers..." which even the devs have noted is not a valid statement.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. We're playing a game based on comic books, so it seems to me that the expectation that the game should behave like the comic books is paramount. That said, Game Balance MUST be retained.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't be done. It really can't. Comic books themselves don't behave like each other, within the same series or between different series. Should we have people with the power level of Superman, or Batman? Of the Silver Surfer, or Kitty Pride? Of the Hulk, or Thunderbird? These characters have vastly different power levels, but are all in the comics. How do you get the game to behave like a Silver Surfer comic, and also like the Batman comic? You can't. You just can't.
So, what you aim for is trying to get as decently close as possible, within the framework of the game. This game, at inception, didn't have ATs. You could choose any two power sets you wanted. It was closer to the comics than the game is today, with a wider range of power levels in it. You could have Tank-Mages, and you could have complete gimps, with no offense except brawl. How do you balance a game with that wide of a power level difference? You also have people tending to choose the path of least resistance, often times choosing it over concept. As such, people tended to make more Tank-Mages, able to survive and dish out a ton of damage. It made the game ridiculously easy.
Because of that, the Devs made the AT system. The AT system does not exist in the comics. It just doesn't. You have characters that emulate certain ATs (or, more accurately, the ATs emulate those characters), but you never get exacts. Each character in the comics can usually do something that this game won't allow them to do. The Ancillary Pools try to fill in these gaps to some extent, but can't cover every case. Conversely, we have characters in the comics that would be woefully underbalanced if they came into this game (Storm would have Storm Summoning, but no blasts, for instance; the Invisible Woman would have almost no offense at all).
This game is an MMO inspired by comic books. It is NOT a comic book MMO. It has taken a specific power level, and used that as a baseline for it's characters to have. It then goes from there to work out how each AT will fit into that baseline level. When doing so, it will likely divert largely from the source material. Sure, the Devs can try to keep it as close as they can, but it's not going to be very close. To get closer, you need to not be an MMO, where balance issues don't need to be addressed, and you can just imitate a specific character and not worry about different power levels between your characters.
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QFT
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
The Stop Sign speaks troof.
But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!
FIE ON THEM I SAY!
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...little more backup than "but comic book tankers..." which even the devs have noted is not a valid statement.
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I disagree with this. We're playing a game based on comic books, so it seems to me that the expectation that the game should behave like the comic books is paramount. That said, Game Balance MUST be retained.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't be done. It really can't. Comic books themselves don't behave like each other, within the same series or between different series. Should we have people with the power level of Superman, or Batman? Of the Silver Surfer, or Kitty Pride? Of the Hulk, or Thunderbird? These characters have vastly different power levels, but are all in the comics. How do you get the game to behave like a Silver Surfer comic, and also like the Batman comic? You can't. You just can't.
So, what you aim for is trying to get as decently close as possible, within the framework of the game. This game, at inception, didn't have ATs. You could choose any two power sets you wanted. It was closer to the comics than the game is today, with a wider range of power levels in it. You could have Tank-Mages, and you could have complete gimps, with no offense except brawl. How do you balance a game with that wide of a power level difference? You also have people tending to choose the path of least resistance, often times choosing it over concept. As such, people tended to make more Tank-Mages, able to survive and dish out a ton of damage. It made the game ridiculously easy.
Because of that, the Devs made the AT system. The AT system does not exist in the comics. It just doesn't. You have characters that emulate certain ATs (or, more accurately, the ATs emulate those characters), but you never get exacts. Each character in the comics can usually do something that this game won't allow them to do. The Ancillary Pools try to fill in these gaps to some extent, but can't cover every case. Conversely, we have characters in the comics that would be woefully underbalanced if they came into this game (Storm would have Storm Summoning, but no blasts, for instance; the Invisible Woman would have almost no offense at all).
This game is an MMO inspired by comic books. It is NOT a comic book MMO. It has taken a specific power level, and used that as a baseline for it's characters to have. It then goes from there to work out how each AT will fit into that baseline level. When doing so, it will likely divert largely from the source material. Sure, the Devs can try to keep it as close as they can, but it's not going to be very close. To get closer, you need to not be an MMO, where balance issues don't need to be addressed, and you can just imitate a specific character and not worry about different power levels between your characters.
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I agree with this comment wholeheartedly. And I believe the fact that "this is an MMO with Super Hero Elements, not a Super Hero MMO" is about the best we can do.
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Sadly you are correct. And getting more correct every day it seems. I see it being pushed, pulled by devs and players alike in this direction. I suppose for those that like MMO first Super Hero second it's a good thing.
Trouble is (and I wish I had the search fu to find it) Statesman himself said CoH is supposed to be a Comic Book like game first and MMP second. I'm paraphrasing, but that was what I believe he meant.
Help make America #1 in Broadband: www.broadband.gov
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I'm coming from a position of being constantly attacked and opposed for what I say, including by you. I'm called a liar, a child, an idiot and a villain. All for pushing for Tanker issues. The developers themselves troll my threads when they're not ignoring them. What kind of attitude do you think that would foster?
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You get what you give. Stop throwing temper tantrums and eventually people may start treating you like an adult.
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This game is an MMO inspired by comic books. It is NOT a comic book MMO. It has taken a specific power level, and used that as a baseline for it's characters to have. It then goes from there to work out how each AT will fit into that baseline level. When doing so, it will likely divert largely from the source material. Sure, the Devs can try to keep it as close as they can, but it's not going to be very close. To get closer, you need to not be an MMO, where balance issues don't need to be addressed, and you can just imitate a specific character and not worry about different power levels between your characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't even say the devs decided on a specifc power level, they've given us the tools to set our own.
People often forget the RPG part of MMORPG. Are those Council agents regular joes or enhanced super-soldiers? That's up to us. On teams, they could be both, depending on which character's "story" you're viewing them through.
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But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!
FIE ON THEM I SAY!
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I had a Question/Rorschach homage character for a long time. He ideled in the teens because there's no Street Fighting set and DM felt wrong.
.
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I'm called a liar, a child, an idiot and a villain. All for pushing for Tanker issues.
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It's not what you've been saying, but rather how you have said it, that's usually the problem.
That said; these days we do seem to be dealing with a Kinder-Gentler Johnny. It's been a while since I've seen you reach the heights of ludicrous I remember from ealier instances of this disscussion (though your assersion that tank players who dont agree with you have been 'broken' came close).
Have you been replaced by a Nemisis Automaton?
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But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!
FIE ON THEM I SAY!
[/ QUOTE ]
I had a Question/Rorschach homage character for a long time. He ideled in the teens because there's no Street Fighting set and DM felt wrong.
.
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Question learned martial arts from Richard Dragon, so he should be a MA scrapper. At any rate, the Question was a pathetic fighter. Green Lantern trashed him in Double Date, and he's an Archery/TA defender.
'What would Rorchach do? He'd go in there and kick some [censored]!'
...
'Any last words?'
'Yeah, Rorschach sucks.'
But seriously folks.
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It's not what you've been saying, but rather how you have said it
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His opinions of tankers have been so overly negative that it's hard not to take them as being factually incorrect, even though he tends to avoid anything that can actually be proven or disproven. I.e., tankers being aggro monkeys, punching bags, dummies, or decoys; rage sucks, and is worse now than before the only-affecting-self change; devs being "outright anti-Tankers"; etc. But, when he makes statements like willpower being outright better than invulnerability at S/L damage, and people call him on it with numbers, he won't acknowledge it, or will find some petty reason to dismiss everyone's understanding but his own.
Things like claiming Arcanaville was 'part of the problem,' for example, indicates a very polarising 'us vs them' mindset too. Claiming that players 'need tankers to gain XP' is another one. The constant claim of 'rodeo clown' is a problem. Plus, there's the whole ignoring numbers thing.
Like twenty seconds. How much faster should tankers be at killing red bosses?
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That said; these days we do seem to be dealing with a Kinder-Gentler Johnny.
Have you been replaced by a Nemisis Automaton?
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Just proving wrong the people who said attitude matters. Since turning the dial down I've gotten less results in anything I campaign for.
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SUPERMAN DOESN'T SPEND 20 SECONDS DEFEATING BOSSES! I CAN SPEEDREAD!
Ummmm, I'm going to quibble with that. This IS a superhero/comic book game. You have to remember both elements for this. I didn't complain with X-Men Legends when they threw in a bunch of RPG and leveling elements, the game worked for what it was. THIS game works for what it is, and it's balanced. Any suggestions for changing this game should do the same.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!
FIE ON THEM I SAY!
[/ QUOTE ]
I had a Question/Rorschach homage character for a long time. He ideled in the teens because there's no Street Fighting set and DM felt wrong.
.
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Question learned martial arts from Richard Dragon, so he should be a MA scrapper. At any rate, the Question was a pathetic fighter. Green Arrow* trashed him in Double Date, and he's an Archery/TA defender.
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*fixed that for ya, no charge. I'm pretty sure it was Green Arrow, not Green Lantern (who would be like Positron, only better powerlevel).
Help make America #1 in Broadband: www.broadband.gov
Take the survey/test (like a Census for Broadband): http://broadband.gov/qualitytest/about/
[ QUOTE ]
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But I want to play Superman, and fie on those who want to play The Question!
FIE ON THEM I SAY!
[/ QUOTE ]
I had a Question/Rorschach homage character for a long time. He ideled in the teens because there's no Street Fighting set and DM felt wrong.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Question learned martial arts from Richard Dragon, so he should be a MA scrapper. At any rate, the Question was a pathetic fighter. Green Arrow* trashed him in Double Date, and he's an Archery/TA defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
*fixed that for ya, no charge. I'm pretty sure it was Green Arrow, not Green Lantern (who would be like Positron, only better powerlevel).
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Erm, d'oh... yeah... Thanks. 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the stop sign. I believe it CAN be done. Pen and Paper Champions did it. The secret is to allow all characters to do the same thing.
My heavy hitting strong man with 60 strength, 12d6 damage.
My Martial Artist with 20 strength, 12d6 damage (he would have martial arts manuevers and damage class bonuses for his skills).
What it amounts to is, if everyone is a tankmage, then the only issue is balancing the different types of tankmagi so they're all effectively the same, though they may achieve that differently.
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Pen and Paper Champions did it.
[/ QUOTE ]Do you even listen to yourself sometimes?
I suspect this is going to further open up the hornets nest that is currently going on in this thread. I'm also pretty sure that this has been discussed before and apologize if this is old news/info. But anyway, here goes.
Out of curiosity I opened up Mids (1.401) to look at a few things.
<ul type="square">
[*]end usage per power between tanker/scrapper sets that have been ported to both: primaries and secondaries
[*]percentage difference between the tanker primary def/res power vs. scrapper secondary def/res.
[*]percentage difference between the tanker secondary dmg vs. scrapper primary dmg.
[/list]
So. The results were interesting to say the least.
Endurance usage: with a couple of minor fluctuations they were same for tanks and scrappers for both primary and secondary powers. (siphon life was one where the endurance costs were different.)
Defensively: Pretty much across the board Scrappers def/res were 75% of the same power in tanks, with a few items being rounded up 1/2 percentage.
Damage: Again, pretty much across the board Tanker damage was ~65% of the same power in scrappers, with a few items being rounded up/down by a small percentage. (This doesn't include criticals)
Mind you, I didn't take the time to look at secondary effects etc. This is solely based on the current version of Mids and looking at powerset comparisons. Personally I think this shows that scrappers defenses need to be nerf'd a little. 
/em hides.
Make of it what you will.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Umm, what?
I was referring to being able to balance things while remaining comparatively true to the comic book inspiration. Champions DID do it. What's the problem?
Champions did it by being wildly out of balance and having a human referee on the spot to keep the good players from completely outclassing the crap ones. It's a PEN AND PAPER GAME. It has a constant human influx of INFINITE CONTROL, which means there's no NEED for the game to be balanced the way an MMO does. You don't have two hundred thousand people playing your Champs campaign. You have like, six, maybe eight if you're totally pants-on-head retarded or have weird scheduling or something.
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...little more backup than "but comic book tankers..." which even the devs have noted is not a valid statement.
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree with this. We're playing a game based on comic books, so it seems to me that the expectation that the game should behave like the comic books is paramount. That said, Game Balance MUST be retained.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something like Critical Taunt adds a heavy hitting feel to tankers in my opinion, moving them closer to that comic book feel.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat