Chilblain, Block of Ice, Ice Blast, Ice Storm, Hurl.
5 Ranged attacks possible on 1 tank.
Ice has 4, earth 3, energy 2 and fire 3 (4 if you count char but thats more control than damage)
If you want more and insist on playing a tank, change your concept.
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However, being limited to only melee powers is very limiting to concepts like mine, that require the combination of toughness and ranged powers.
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Do you even read feedback? As others have posted, you are NOT limited to melee attacks. There are ranged attacks in the Epics and I can think of two Secondaries that both include a ranged attack.
What you want is a Tankmage.
My Energy/Energy/Elc Blaster is a homage to Iron Man. He's plenty tough. Of course there are some irregularities to his concept but since he's a homage in a world where someone elses rules apply, I work with what I'm given. If you haven't tried the Elec pool for Blasters, then you are missing out. Surge of Power is a excellent tool (yes, I know you look like a gremlin) and Charged Armor certainly adds some toughness to your character by giving you resistance to the 3 most popular damage types in this game; smashing, lethal and energy.
I can't wait for CO to be released. Finally we'll stop seeing posts from yourself and J_B about your silly concepts and how CoX can't meet your design goals.
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Do you even read my posts, or do you just jerk your knee at the first few words?
I have said several times that the epic pools are nice, but they come at the very end of the character's existence. The character concept is often, even usually, the first thing created. Thus, L41 is an awful long time to wait to finally realize the character's original conception, and even then only to a limited degree.
I specifically said I don't want a Tankmage. A Tanker that does Tanker damage is not a Tankmage. The difference between a ranged attack that does 50 damage and a melee attack that does 50 damage is NOTHING. The only difference is the presentation of the power. The reality is even that the ranged attack would actually do closer to 35 damage, since ranged attacks are less powerful in general. Then again, I said this too.
I also said it's not about making an Iron Man homage (well, not ONLY for that). Variety is the spice of life, and CHOICE is everything. Giving Tankers, and indeed, all ATs, more choices when building their characters is a GOOD thing. I suggested making the Dominator sets available, because they're fairly balanced already, in the general range of damage output for Tankers already and in the game already. That is, there's relatively little work involved.
Finally, I hate to burst your bubble, but even if CO meets my expectations, I'll very likely still hang around here. You'll be able to post to my threads with unwarranted hostility well into the future.
(I was going to use the "T" word, but it's not allowed here)
I agree, the Peacebringer might be a decent option, except for the fact that it's not avaialable. Not to me, and not to many players. I can overlook the alien origin of the peacebringer, and tell myself it's something different, but there's something oddly displeasing about that. It's hard to put a finger on. I mean, if I want to pretend, I don't need a game at all. I can pretend all sorts of things.
Either way, I'm just trying to suggest a way to create more options for character design.
Hellincarnate is referring once again to the Ancillary/Epic Power Pools, and I've addressed this suggestion.
Again, I have a pretty good sense of what the game has to offer now, I'm looking at ways to expand on that in a positive way.
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I specifically said I don't want a Tankmage. A Tanker that does Tanker damage is not a Tankmage.
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Why not? Tanker damage isn't poor, and it can actually be quite devastating if you know how to build for it.
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The difference between a ranged attack that does 50 damage and a melee attack that does 50 damage is NOTHING. The only difference is the presentation of the power. The reality is even that the ranged attack would actually do closer to 35 damage, since ranged attacks are less powerful in general. Then again, I said this too.
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So you're telling me that you'd be ok with an AT that had tanker defenses/resistances w/ Defender Range Damage modifier?
HAHAHAHAHAHAA. No way, I can't believe that based on your posts about FF/EB Defender in the MA missions.
Whew, that was pretty funny.
Ultimo, what you're ultimately asking for is a new AT, not an expansion of the current AT.
Your idea, to basically give Tankers Assault sets in addition to the current Melee sets, would be the same as asking for Controllers to have both Buff/Debuff and Mastermind secondaries. In is greatly increasing their roles, and changing them in a direction that they weren't meant to take until the end of the game.
While it might stink that you can't make your concept character based on the ATs that we have in-game, the ATs were made because free-form powerset selection had huge problems. While your suggestion doesn't end up with complete free-form choice, it makes it so that Tankers could potentially take one of two roles in a team, while the other ATs can only take one.
If a Tanker could essentially have a full ranged attack chain, they could end up being much more survivable in the low levels than they currently are, mainly because ranged damage is generally less on Mobs than melee damage. You'd essentially be giving Tanker more survivability by allowing them to stay at range and still dispatch enemies quickly.
Add to that the fact that, as a Tanker secondary, these sets would most likely have Taunt, which reduces enemy range. Thus, a Tanker could Taunt a small group, and take them apart one by one with a full ranged attack chain, and the enemies would have no chance to retaliate.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Because ranged damage is for wimps. I'm a tanker, I like to jump in the middle of the fray and punch people in the face and get punched in the face and laugh at them for thinking they can hurt me.
Iron Man is not a tank in any way, shape or form. As someone else mentioned before, there are not a lot of superhero "tanks" that have ranged abilities. The game tends to follow the comics along the lines of those that do greater damage are also more vulnerable to attack. It's a trade off. I mean sure there are guys in the comics like Apocalypse that can do ranged attacks and are damn near invulnerable, but you have to be the most epic of badguys, etc. in order to get that.
The game tends to follow themes set forth in the comics for each AT and that is just the way it is.
Coming back out of the woodwork after a couple years away from the game...
At some point you (all of us) has to realize that this is a video game with a finite amount of possibilities. Not all concepts are going to be able to be realized.
Try making Thor ... see how far you get.
P.S. - CO will help but only to a limited degree. If you go the defensive route, your damage will be equal to Defender damage (which is generally considered lower then Tanker damage) and if you go the nuker route, the best you can hope for in defenses is to be Scrapper like (unmodified).
If you're suggesting a Tanker that does Tanker damage is a Tankmage, then every Tanker in the game is a Tankmage already. Obviously ludicrous.
Actually, I'd love a character with Tanker toughness and Defender damage output, if that's what was deemed balanced. The problem I have with the Defender isn't that he had no damage or that he has no defense, it's that he has NEITHER (though the FF/EB build improves as it matures).
I'd never advocate proliferating the special effect sets, such as the controls, buffs or debuffs. Just pure damage sets. Damage is Damage, but the buffs, debuffs and other effects can completely change the way the game plays, and thereby unbalance things easily. Can you imagine a Will/Mind Control Tanker? He'd never die!
To put it in perspective, I see no reason why any AT that does normal damage couldn't use a combined melee/ranged set. Use the Corruptor as an example. What would be wrong with a Traps/Energy Assault Corruptor (as opposed to Traps/Energy Blast)? The damage set is generating damage. What's the difference if it's melee or ranged?
Tankers tend to suffer at lower level, in my experience. I don't see them getting a benefit at lower level as unbalanced at all. It could be argued that it's making it better balanced. As they level up, they tend to fight foes with more ranged attacks, and often longer ranged ranged attacks. I think it's still balanced, but of any criticism, this is the most salient to me. It might result in excessive survivability on Tankers. Personally, I think it would result in a slight increase in survivability, but reduced offense would balance it. Then again, I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see some actual numbers to see how it might play out.
The sets would need to have Taunt, as you say, and I suggested it might be inserted in place of the usual Snipe attack. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you mean. The Tanker could aggro them and then take them apart one at a time? Isn't that what happens now? As I say, this confuses me a bit, could you elaborate?
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At some point you (all of us) has to realize that this is a video game with a finite amount of possibilities. Not all concepts are going to be able to be realized.
Try making Thor ... see how far you get.
P.S. - CO will help but only to a limited degree. If you go the defensive route, your damage will be equal to Defender damage (which is generally considered lower then Tanker damage) and if you go the nuker route, the best you can hope for in defenses is to be Scrapper like (unmodified).
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Actually, I made a version of Thor already, as a Stone/Elec Brute! It actually works pretty well. The Hammer effects sound like thunder rolling. War Mace, using the warhammer, might look better, but it wasn't available at the time.
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At some point you (all of us) has to realize that this is a video game with a finite amount of possibilities. Not all concepts are going to be able to be realized.
Try making Thor ... see how far you get.
P.S. - CO will help but only to a limited degree. If you go the defensive route, your damage will be equal to Defender damage (which is generally considered lower then Tanker damage) and if you go the nuker route, the best you can hope for in defenses is to be Scrapper like (unmodified).
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Actually, I made a version of Thor already, as a Stone/Elec Brute! It actually works pretty well. The Hammer effects sound like thunder rolling. War Mace, using the warhammer, might look better, but it wasn't available at the time.
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Yeah? You throwing a hammer a lot too?
That to me is signature Thor (which is my very problem with WM btw).
And the person above me was trying to say that having a Tanker doing Tanker damage purely through ranged attacks would be a "tank mage". And that poster would be correct (which is what you're asking for if I read your posts correctly).
No, he can't throw his hammer, which is signature Thor, even in the myths, but as with everything, I have to make concessions. He feels enough like Thor otherwise, though, so he still is satisfying to play.
I see what you mean, if the ranged attacks do the same damage as melee attacks, that would be tankmagey. I agree. That's why I pointed out that ranged attacks do less damage than melee.
Using Energy Melee (for example), I would expect the melee powers to be the same as the existing melee powers (eg. if Bone Smasher does 100 damage in Energy Melee, it should do that in Energy Assault). The ranged attacks would do less damage than the melee attacks simply by virtue of the fact that they're ranged. Would that be enough? I don't know, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if it's still too much, then they could be adjusted. I'm still looking for balance, here.
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To put it in perspective, I see no reason why any AT that does normal damage couldn't use a combined melee/ranged set. Use the Corruptor as an example. What would be wrong with a Traps/Energy Assault Corruptor (as opposed to Traps/Energy Blast)? The damage set is generating damage. What's the difference if it's melee or ranged?
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The problem is that enemies in this game tend to do less damage at range, and have less ranged attacks. So you're getting hit less often with weaker attacks. That's why range is considered a defense.
The reason Tankers have high defense is because they're meant to be facing the more powerful melee attacks. If they were meant to have a number of ranged attacks, it wouldn't make sense to also have the Tanker-level defenses.
So you're basically talking about a different Archetype, not Tankers.
Thor may throw his hammer, but the core of the character is hand to hand combat. It's even a matter of honor for him, he is a Nordic warrior, (and god) after all.
I think if the Tanker had access to a few ranged attacks (like Hurl, even if you do have to wait for 35 for that) that's wouldn't be a problem. Heck, every Tanker, Scrapper, Brute and Stalker in the game has access to their Origin attack, Nemesis Staff AND the Blackwand from level 1, assuming you've been playing the game long enough. And it doesn't take much to go to the Market and buy a Revolver on top of that.
The difference is, though, if you're conceptualizing a character that has ranged attacks, melee attacks AND defenses, that's not a Tanker. It's not a Blaster or Defender either, but that's a lot closer. A Human form PB is right on the money. As Ultimo has himself mentioned. So you get it.
And really Iron Man may have defense, but does he have Tanker level defense? Does he go toe to toe with the Thing and the Hulk in hand to hand combat? Not likely, I would expect him to step back and use his range as an advantage. Either that or tweak his armor so it IS Tanker-like in nature. (Like the old original armor used to be)
Whether you look at it in game, from the standpoint of wanting to avoid the Tank Mage, or you look at in the comics, where the specialists generally are stronger with what they specialize at than the generalists, if you want both ranged attacks and defenses then you're going to want weaker ranged attacks and weaker defenses. You won't have as much defense as someone who doesn't have any ranged attacks, and you're not going to do as much damage as someone who doesn't have an defense.
You can't bash a Tanker to fit another Archetype by giving it ranged attacks. No matter how many lightning strikes you give Thor, you're not going to turn him into the Human Torch. No matter how much Heat Vision you give Superman, you're not going to turn him into Captain Atom. These "high defense, high ranged attacks" power characters aren't really in CoH, but they aren't really Tankers with ranged attacks, either.
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The problem is that enemies in this game tend to do less damage at range, and have less ranged attacks. So you're getting hit less often with weaker attacks. That's why range is considered a defense.
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Yeah, Blasters say "Range isn't a defense", but that's primarily at high level, where the damage becomes so great that even being at range is no longer protection against a one hit kill. Ironically, it's because of Tankers and Scrappers that Blasters have this problem, the ranged damage has to be enough to pose a threat, even to Tanker level defenses.
That very fact, though, is why range IS a defense -- to Tankers and Scrappers. They can afford to break melee with a foe when they get in trouble and put some range between themselves and their foes, because usually their defenses will protect them even at range. They can't attack, but the damage taken should go way down. So clearly, if you give a ranged attack to an AT with this much defense, kiting becomes child's play.
Which is why Defenders and Kheldians have less defense than a Tanker, but less damage than a Blaster. (In fact, human form Khelds have about the same defense as a Scrapper, but much less damage -- unless on a team, that is. 
) The "Tank Mage" does exist, but it's not as strong as the AT that specializes with either range or defense.
As for Defenders or Corruptors not having melee attacks, again, Kheldians, specifically Peacebringers, do have melee attacks. OTOH, melee attacks typically do more damage than ranged attacks because you have to risk being in melee (and taking more damage) to use them. So Defenders and Corruptors are in a sense forced to use the kiting strategy because they get more risk for less reward for going into melee. Blasters, on the other hand, get melee attacks that allow them to really increase their damage when they can be assured the foe won't hit back.
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The sets would need to have Taunt, as you say, and I suggested it might be inserted in place of the usual Snipe attack. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you mean. The Tanker could aggro them and then take them apart one at a time? Isn't that what happens now? As I say, this confuses me a bit, could you elaborate?
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He means the tanker could aggro at range and then pick off the enemies as they are closing to melee distance from the taunt, hence meaning they have no chance to attack the tank.
Coming back out of the woodwork after a couple years away from the game...
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He means the tanker could aggro at range and then pick off the enemies as they are closing to melee distance from the taunt, hence meaning they have no chance to attack the tank.
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Which is generally a blaster tactic anyway. (minus the taunt of course)
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Hm, I wasn't aware that Taunt forced them to close the distance to engage in melee...
I wonder how that affects enemies that have no melee attacks (as in the case of some custom critters).
I suppose I see what everyone is saying. Ah well, it was an idea.
Taunt for tankers has a -range on it, usually causing everyone effected by it to close to near melee if not true melee range. I don't recall if gauntlet, the tanker inherant, also has that built in but I suspect it does.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Hard to say. I've never actually made a Tanker with Taunt (I almost exclusively solo, and I've never needed anything other than Gauntlet), so I can't speak to how it works. As for Gauntlet, since you're in melee range, how would you know?
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As for Gauntlet, since you're in melee range, how would you know?
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True. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Some Tanker sets already have a ranged attack in them, as do some Scrapper sets.
Tanks get Hurl and Hurl Boulder, Scrappers get Impale. The common theme here is concept - these aren't super-powery ranged attacks but a tough guy throwing something. Which seems wrong to me -the devs should be dictating powers based on game blanace, not on concept.
I dont think people take Superstrength and Stone Melee specifically for the ranged power, ie its not seen as the crown jewel of the set by any means. So there isn't really any game balance reason for Energy melee not having a Power Blast in it, or Axe having a Throw Axe ranged attack. Not many ranged attacks but just one, and that would satisfy concept players, I think.
Now, the devs arent going to pull out an existing power and replace it. I also doubt they'll make a new "Energy Melee with Blast" set.
But I've got to say, I can see the option to have a single energy blast or throwing hammers and axes would be really popular with concept players.
With what we've got, the best solution for the ranged tanker is the FF/* Defender. Your survivability takes a while to come together, but by the late 20's/early 30's you'll really notice it.
I currently run a space marine Tanker who carries a number of assault weapons. Basically I horde all the temporary powers I can get and sometimes fire off a shot in combat, to pull a group maybe. I also tend to pop out my flamethrower or shotgun if I have to run across town, just for the looks
The Confiscated Beanbag stun gun, for example, is available with 75 shots from Ouroborus, and is actually very nice to have against Sappers and other nasties.
The Revolver can be crafted whenever you have a moment for 30 shots.
All the temp powres would benefit from either Invulnerbaility or Superstrength for the To Hit bonuses from Invincibility or Rage
I still want to be able to pick up cars and swing telephone poles like baseball bats with SS...lol.
Coming back out of the woodwork after a couple years away from the game...
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Taunt for tankers has a -range on it, usually causing everyone effected by it to close to near melee if not true melee range. I don't recall if gauntlet, the tanker inherant, also has that built in but I suspect it does.
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It does not. Taunt was given -range after the players suggested it get something else to help Tankers out. It was a player-driven addition to the power, that was not given to Gauntlet. It is specific to Taunt.
And yes, it does not force the enemy to melee range. It just makes their ranged attacks harder to pull off since the range is shortened. If the -range makes their range shorter than the range that you can have on your attacks, you can basically force the enemy to stand there with no way to fight back. It's within your range, but you're not within his.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Actually, the idea of simply adding Power Blast to Energy Melee would have been enough for me. As you say, though, they're not likely to make a change.
In my mind (which is a muddy place sometimes) I'd have made all the power sets identical in format and ability, but with different special effects (so Power Bolts would do exactly the same damage as Flares, would use the same endurance and have the same range, but would have the special effects of the specific powers, that is, knockback and a small DOT). That would have meant Super Strength would have had Hurl, Energy Melee would have Energy Blast and so on. But that's me.
And many of us wish we could grab cars and telephone poles and smack things with them. Too bad the engine can't support it.
Ranged offense + high survivability = Fortunata, Crab Spider, human-form Peacebringer.
Objecting that these lock one into a concept betrays a lack of imagination.
@SPTrashcan
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