[ QUOTE ]
Oh and for heaven sakes make a real expansion and plan on having a real expansion at least once a year.
Yes you might actually have to hire more then 3 devs (shocking I know).
[/ QUOTE ]
So, the Going Rogue expansion, where it looks like we will get branching storylines, and a new metric for determining how good/evil your character is, isn't enough for you?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Not until its released and actually offers more diverse content (in style specifically) no. So far it just reads as a large co-op zone. The branching storylines is very similar to the base "choose your own path" mechanic which I am actually looking forward to the most. Hopefully it will be implemented well and often.
CoV was a huge let down from the standpoint of actually expanding content ... it didn't. It was actually more of a add-on to the current game (or more accurately, the finishing of the original concept) rather than actually expanding it. The only real addition to content with CoV was the Safeguard/Mayhem missions which *was* actually a large improvement over existing content (more dynamic if only seemingly).
As far as the new "metric" for character alignment .... I have yet to see that implemented well in more advanced games, much less one as crippled (development wise) as CoH is. The only game that comes close from a mechanics standpoint is Fable and that's a closed console game. Shadowbane had a very interesting player driven dynamic but that won't exist in CoH. My fear is that alignment will only serve to change the tone of the random passing NPC's dialogue which will be really frustrating if that's all it turns out to be.
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Quoting a developer who left literally years ago when we have much more up-to-date consensus from someone who has been very transparent about the work he can and can't do on this game is just chasing misinformation to support your point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should point out that as much respect as I have for BaBs, quoting an animator as contradicting a powers data designer over what the programmers can do is a bit quixotic.
Keep in mind that MMO development in general, and this game's development in particular, is highly compartmentalized. When Castle, BaB, and pohsyb (as representatives of data, animation, and code) all say something is "difficult" they are all saying completely different things. In fact, its very often the case that they won't all agree on the difficulty level of a particular thing, because their approach and familiarity with the cross-disciplinary aspects of the problem are much lower than their own base area of expertise.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure you could simply send a PM to Arcanaville asking about Geko's Greatest Failings and hear a tale or two.
[/ QUOTE ]
Geko appears to have been mathematically over his head in terms of adapting PnP mechanical conventions to the requirements of CoH's gameplay environment. I don't think I've ever called him "retarded" though. I think his two critical faults were not recognizing how much influence human GMs have over preventing numerical saturation in PnP-like combat systems, and just not being all that good at math (a problem that I've been told by many sources is all too common in the game design industry).
Although, out of context many of the early powers design decisions are not difficult to portray as crimes against seventh grade mathematics.
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[ QUOTE ]
One final thing ... get rid of MAs and burn your world builder tool. I think it's far past the time for a more robust tool then something as simplistic and static as what they are using.
[/ QUOTE ]
Note: the MA is not the tool the devs have been using to create content all this time. The MA is an offshoot of an internal project to make a better (in terms of more streamlined) editing tool for mission design. In effect the players are getting a "lite" version of that newer tool. I believe its ultimately Hero-1's baby.
Their actual tools allow for far more customization than the MA (as evidenced by the fact that lots of PvE mission exceed its abilities in many areas) but my understanding is that those tools are the MMO equivalent of the days when we used to make web pages with vi and notepad.
I believe that at least part of the intent of the MA system long-term is to give their own mission designers tools that allow them to design missions much faster, allowing them to spend less time on mission mechanics and more time on either expanding mission depth or making more missions overall.
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I actually rather like the MA except for the strangeness in the power of the custom critters. I mean, I was one-shotted by a boss that did over 700 damage in one punch at L4! He could have oneshotted TWO scrappers with that. Minions do 90 damage per attack EACH at the same level! This is at MINIMUM difficulty.
It basically closes off custom characters to lower levels. I hope something is done to correct this soon.
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Quoting a developer who left literally years ago when we have much more up-to-date consensus from someone who has been very transparent about the work he can and can't do on this game is just chasing misinformation to support your point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should point out that as much respect as I have for BaBs, quoting an animator as contradicting a powers data designer over what the programmers can do is a bit quixotic.
[/ QUOTE ]Since it's an animation-based issue, I'd say quoting Geko is actually far more odd. It's an animation effort so it'd fall to him, and yes, programming would have to get involved but it doesn't change the fact that it's a cosmetic change to a single power's animation, and therefore in BABs' Bailiwick.
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I don't think I've ever called him "retarded" though.
[/ QUOTE ]I had no intent to put words in your mouth. My observations of the things that Geko thought were good ideas lend me to think of him quite poorly in hindsight. 'Retarded' is my opinion, not yours.
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'Retarded' is my opinion, not yours.
[/ QUOTE ]
And unnecessarily insulting, in my opinion.
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Quoting a developer who left literally years ago when we have much more up-to-date consensus from someone who has been very transparent about the work he can and can't do on this game is just chasing misinformation to support your point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should point out that as much respect as I have for BaBs, quoting an animator as contradicting a powers data designer over what the programmers can do is a bit quixotic.
[/ QUOTE ]Since it's an animation-based issue, I'd say quoting Geko is actually far more odd. It's an animation effort so it'd fall to him, and yes, programming would have to get involved but it doesn't change the fact that it's a cosmetic change to a single power's animation, and therefore in BABs' Bailiwick.
[/ QUOTE ]
The one possible advantage Geko had that BaB currently does not have is the input of the original animation engine programmer. For that matter, Geko had the advantage of making statements while he still *had* the original animation engine programmer still around to make them. It could actually be harder now when BaB said so than in the past when Geko said so.**
When it comes to modifying the elements of existing animation engine constructs, BaBs is still the expert, but I'm not sure anyone is what I would call an "expert" in the area of estimating the level of work required to alter the animation engine to support new features. In fact, my guess might literally be as good as any (unless those R-type programmers are tearing through it now).
You should also presume that whenever BaB says something "is difficult or impossible" there is the unspoken suffix "without it being so ugly I would rather slit my own throat than do it that way." There are things BaB says would be difficult or impossible that I can see relatively simple ways to accomplish, until I realize that they all have the side effects of either being visually ugly, or increasing the complexity level of the animation resources by an order of magnitude. This is also something that Geko may or may not have been thinking of when he made the statement in question.
** I'm assuming we're talking about interacting with the environment and throwing things in it, rather than literally replacing Hurl's animation with Propel's. Heck: I could probably do that myself.
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I know full well that when an engineer - and in this context, Babs fits the bill - says something is difficult or impossible, they mean 'with caveats.' Simply swapping one animation to another yes, probably quite easy.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One final thing ... get rid of MAs and burn your world builder tool. I think it's far past the time for a more robust tool then something as simplistic and static as what they are using.
[/ QUOTE ]
Note: the MA is not the tool the devs have been using to create content all this time. The MA is an offshoot of an internal project to make a better (in terms of more streamlined) editing tool for mission design. In effect the players are getting a "lite" version of that newer tool. I believe its ultimately Hero-1's baby.
Their actual tools allow for far more customization than the MA (as evidenced by the fact that lots of PvE mission exceed its abilities in many areas) but my understanding is that those tools are the MMO equivalent of the days when we used to make web pages with vi and notepad.
I believe that at least part of the intent of the MA system long-term is to give their own mission designers tools that allow them to design missions much faster, allowing them to spend less time on mission mechanics and more time on either expanding mission depth or making more missions overall.
[/ QUOTE ]
If this is true (and you would probably know better then I) then this is even more depressing considering how limited the MA tool is (and yes I understand that the dev's version of the tool would offer more options).
The problem is not with the speed at which they can crank out "content". That's never really been a huge problem for CoH considering how limited the content is. In fact, in the past they've always been hamgstrung more by art and animation then by physical coding if memory serves, and again that's because they were never really challenged to change the *style* of their content (which is the focal point to me).
As a programmer, I understand there are finite resources and a point of diminishing returns. However from my perspective, the point of diminishing returns is far lower then it should be for an MMO that's (supposedly) been running in the black for 5 years.
CoH has been in caretaker mode literally since release, with new additions to the game only being layered over the existing structure. At some point (earlier) the decision (at higher then the dev level) should have been made to put the resources into truly expanding the game. This decision was not made, and thus you have what a very finite set of instructions can produce.
P.S. - the proper analogy would have been to say that the MA is more like using Front Page to make a web page. You can get it done fast and cheap, but it's not going to be very indepth.
Perhaps I missed your point in all the words you typed, but what is exactly is your beef with MA? Would you rather not have it at all?
Serious questions.
No real "beef" with it other than it's more of a gimmick then a real content update, being just player supplied words of things we've done a billion times in exactly the same way.
Additionally I think having a centralized system of content (geographically) takes away from your game world, and the rate with which you can earn tickets and influence, devalues the small reward system that is currently in place in CoH.
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No real "beef" with it other than it's more of a gimmick then a real content update, being just player supplied words of things we've done a billion times in exactly the same way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, not content? You think giving the players the ability to create their own stories for their characters or to create a Nemesis is not content?
You're right the mechanics are the same as the normal PVE content, but that doesn't make it any less "content."
If we were talking about a static form of entertainment such as comic books, I would agree with.
As we are talking about an interactive game, then no, I don't consider the MA new content in spirit. New content technically speaking? Sure .... but I can write words on a paper bag and read them back to myself while I do the missions I've done repeatedly to get the same effect.
I wouldn't call that new content either.
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As we are talking about an interactive game, then no, I don't consider the MA new content in spirit. New content technically speaking? Sure .... but I can write words on a paper bag and read them back to myself while I do the missions I've done repeatedly to get the same effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're being obtuse, intentionally. You know very well it's nothing similar to reading lines off a paper bag. You know very well there are 100s of story arcs (content) you can choose to enjoy. You know very well some of these story arcs are on the same level, if not better, then some Dev created content.
MA is wonderful and a perfect match for this game. Of course, it will need some fine tuning periodically to make sure the system is up to date (I15) and new features added as they are developed.
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As we are talking about an interactive game, then no, I don't consider the MA new content in spirit. New content technically speaking? Sure .... but I can write words on a paper bag and read them back to myself while I do the missions I've done repeatedly to get the same effect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now you're being obtuse, intentionally. You know very well it's nothing similar to reading lines off a paper bag. You know very well there are 100s of story arcs (content) you can choose to enjoy. You know very well some of these story arcs are on the same level, if not better, then some Dev created content.
MA is wonderful and a perfect match for this game. Of course, it will need some fine tuning periodically to make sure the system is up to date (I15) and new features added as they are developed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You play Tic Tac Toe competitively don't you?
Ive been asking/saying this for years Ultimo. A tank with blasts would be very nice to see, if for the look alone. And no I don't mean "epic" eyebeams that do laugable dmg. Originally I felt as I was the only one...till I saw what they did with Statesman in the comics(elec blasting). it wasn't long till I wanted something better than the week "epics" that tankers recieved.
For those who posted that "blasting isn't a tanks forte";
Lobo = Gun blasting
Silver Banshee - Sound blasting.
Darkseid - superior eye beam dmg (Omega effect being his main power)
Eradicator - Energy blasting.
Imperiex - energy/fire
Neutron - energy
Preus- fire/energy/
Vartox- energy
Silver Surfer - cosmic beams/generally anything he wants
Iceman - now officially a tank after the whole White queen incident.
Green Lanterns - power ring
Iron Man - See hulkbuster armor, or Ultimo fight (Yes he's a tank)
I can keep going but I think my point is made. Marvel and DC have already implemented this idea in tons of their characters that "tank". Asking for it in a game which revolves around those heroes and said franchise isn't asking fot too much. Mainly I feel many veer away from this opinion, because of the "overpowered" arguement that would soon follow. But as a vet who has made a Rock tank, and invul tank back in I5, and a WP tank, I know what overpowered is, and have no problems with what it has manifested into.
Obviously I would love to see this done. will it ever happen?... many think the APP's blasts are great, so I doubt it. Then again thats what Champions Online is for. 
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
[ QUOTE ]
CoH has been in caretaker mode literally since release, with new additions to the game only being layered over the existing structure. At some point (earlier) the decision (at higher then the dev level) should have been made to put the resources into truly expanding the game. This decision was not made, and thus you have what a very finite set of instructions can produce.
[/ QUOTE ]
That appears to have changed circa November 2007, which is about the moment in time I first became aware of the project that became Real Numbers (and around the time of the NCSoft acquisition). The MA I believe has been in early development going back to at least the same time period. Since its a start-from-scratch project we're only seeing the earliest iterations of it. I don't think its fair to judge it in a long-term sense based on its current conditions. The devs have suggested that possible additions on the road map for the MA system are things like map editing. And the I15 version is introducing the ability to partially alter the appearance of standard critters (mostly color changes at the moment, but still an interesting and highly requested development).
Certainly, during the timeframe from that date to today, there seems to be a much higher degree of investment in expanding the game systems. Real Numbers was a significant investment in expanding the capabilities of the game systems, the MA was, the boxed expansion must have been worked on for a significant amount of that time, and even the changes to PvP in I13 (whatever you may think of them) required changes to the game engine to support. There are even hints the devs are looking to address the brain-dead AI subsystem. The devs are never as fast as I would like them to be, but they do appear to be both operating faster now than before, and operating under an expanded scope of what's fair game to work on.
It would have been nice if this had been happening since release, but its at least happening now.
[ QUOTE ]
P.S. - the proper analogy would have been to say that the MA is more like using Front Page to make a web page. You can get it done fast and cheap, but it's not going to be very indepth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably a better analogy would be that the current MA is like Dreamweaver, and a very early beta of it.
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[ QUOTE ]
It would have been nice if this had been happening since release, but its at least happening now.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, at game release, how many people were working there? After CoV?
There's now about 50 people in the office, IIRC. More programmers generally means faster content, or the possibility of bigger things.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
I can keep going but I think my point is made. Marvel and DC have already implemented this idea in tons of their characters that "tank". Asking for it in a game which revolves around those heroes and said franchise isn't asking fot too much.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is. Those comics have to worry exactly jack squat about balance. The story tellers can make those characters as powerful or as weak as they want, pretty much on the fly.
As soon as this game has a mutable system that can adjust the enemy strengths and weaknesses on the fly, so that balance is achieved no matter what you do, then I'd say that it wouldn't be too much to ask for.
But without doing that, and implementing a system where Tankers can get a decent amount of blasts throughout the game, would lead to problems.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Well I'll disagree about the MA system but if you say that the system that drives it will produce more robust content then I'll wait and see. But I (like most customers) who have played this game are going to base their opinions on history, not promised or implied futures. Historically speaking, what you've said here doesn't jibe.
Also you first mentioned that the new system that drives the MA was setup to deliver missions faster (which I can see). How is it going to make content more robust (i.e. diversity of content, not quantity content)?
From a programmer's point of view, any time I've been associated with a project that is currently in production and needs continuous maintenance, AND is being rebuilt to add more functionality (rather than layered on top of the original application), there have always been two dev teams involved to facilitate parallel development. I don't see that happening here (doesn't mean it isn't ... I just haven't heard of a whole slew of new devs working on something recently).
Typically if the production team and the maintenance team are the same, production will be limited in scope due to resource restrictions. That I do see happening here (and it's really not fair to blame the devs (sorry devs) ... this is more management and business then what Castle, BaBs, et al. do). Your comment about adding to the robustness of the MA system by allowing the coloring (i.e. hue) of standard mobs is *exactly* the care taker type of development I'm talking about.
The shame of it is that the original dev team created an amazing game from a physics and graphics point of view. The animations and graphics are excellent, and the fighting can be made to be (and in the past has been) ... for lack of a better term ... heroic. BUT that's all the game offers .... and that's all it ever offered. Unfortunately that's not (proven) to be enough to hold the majority of subscriber's attention for more then a few months at a clip.
The real shame here is that these guys have had 5 YEARS (not including ALL of the pre-release work so really 7-8 years) to get a clue. Now they're about to be trumped by the new slew of Super Hero MMOs coming out (DCO, MO, CO). I'm willing to bet that out of those three appearing within the next 2 years, one of them will effectively vapor CoH/V as it stands now.
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(doesn't mean it isn't ... I just haven't heard of a whole slew of new devs working on something recently).
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, CoH: GR should prove you wrong there.
We have Devs devoted to keeping the current material up-to-date, and as bug-free as they can make it, along with adding new content within the current systems. Then we have a different set of Devs (maybe still reporting to the main ones, but most likely not the same ones) working on Going Rogue, which has new systems and diversity of content in it.
I'm sorry that you're not happy with the conent that we've been getting, but it is new content. Just because you don't like the format that it's taking doesn't make it not new content.
IOs and sets added a new way to build characters that can vastly change the way that characters can play. The MA allows you to build your own missions within a framework. How you can look at that and say that it's not content baffles me. Sure, the missions still exist within a limited framework, but it allows for a lot of new stories, which is exactly what a lot of people were complaining about before it came out. They were tired of doing the same missions over and over again. Now, we have a whole new system devoted to making new stories, and a lot of them are quite good new stories.
You seem to be saying that only new mechanisms within a mission is new content, and that's just not true.
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately that's not (proven) to be enough to hold the majority of subscriber's attention for more then a few months at a clip.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd also ask you to back this statement up, because I'm betting that you pulled it right from your rear end, to put it delicately. Neither you, nor I, know the average subscriber length here, nor what causes people to leave.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
No real "beef" with it other than it's more of a gimmick then a real content update, being just player supplied words of things we've done a billion times in exactly the same way.
Additionally I think having a centralized system of content (geographically) takes away from your game world, and the rate with which you can earn tickets and influence, devalues the small reward system that is currently in place in CoH.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mechanically, I look at the MA as just a different version of the Portal Corps setup without having to run across the field to get to different portals.
The one thing that I initially thought was odd about the MA was that it didn't auto exemp characters to the zone levels or that you could do missions beyond the zone level you were in. I just figured it wasn't feasible to do so. If there had been such limitations it would have forced people to shift from zone to zone as they leveled if nothing else.
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Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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[ QUOTE ]
Well I'll disagree about the MA system but if you say that the system that drives it will produce more robust content then I'll wait and see. But I (like most customers) who have played this game are going to base their opinions on history, not promised or implied futures. Historically speaking, what you've said here doesn't jibe.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying it *will* just that it *can*. And there is no historical reference here, because prior to NCSoft's acquisition the dev team did not have the resources to add new features to the game to leverage. This is the first time since release that the dev team has ever possessed the resources necessary to significantly expand the game capabilities. So this will be the first time we get to judge their commitment to doing so.
[ QUOTE ]
Also you first mentioned that the new system that drives the MA was setup to deliver missions faster (which I can see). How is it going to make content more robust (i.e. diversity of content, not quantity content)?
[/ QUOTE ]
If you're spending all of your time editing your web pages in vi, you're not going to be thinking about making highly elaborate web pages at the same time, and if you do, you're going to be extremely limited in the number you can make. Better mission tools frees up the content creators to spend more time on the story and balance elements of the missions rather than the mechanics of just setting up a map.
Furthermore, and this is of course theoretical, the mission designers at Paragon Studios have a lot more input into making game engine changes than we do. If they aren't spending all their time hand-editing missions, they will have more time to spend thinking up new features they would like to add to their missions. The better the tools are for them, the more likely they are to request more features to use, as they'll have more time to use them.
Now if you want evidence that the MA could spur additional development into improving the game systems to make better content, I can at least point out that the MA was partially responsible for the devs reexamining the controlling AI in the game, and exploring ways to improve it (ways they are still working on now). I know that for a fact because I was the one that used the MA to explain my AI concerns to the devs during I14 beta, and I know that led to some additional thinking regarding the problem (it wasn't the only reason, but it was a coincident parallel investigation).
So technically, the MA may *force* the devs to improve the game engine in one ironic way: although the internal mission designers have a greater *voice* than we do, in a sense the devs can tell them "no" when they ask for an improvement in some area. But if the players find a defect in the game systems that the MA exposes, that can actually be a bigger problem they can't hand-wave away, and that could force the dev team to prioritize such problems much higher than in the past.
[ QUOTE ]
The real shame here is that these guys have had 5 YEARS (not including ALL of the pre-release work so really 7-8 years) to get a clue.
[/ QUOTE ]
You may not have been around during the "15 people" discussions of a couple years ago, but its been established that the core CoH team was very quickly cut to a very small group responsible for maintaining the game by Cryptic soon after release. Separate from CoV development, CoH has operated under essentially a skeleton crew from about release to about the end of 2007. If they were handed the worlds greatest MMO idea before 2008, they would have been unable to do anything with it.
So while it would have been nice to have those three or four years back, the resources just weren't available to do much more than maintain the state of the game. In retrospect, the devs actually did rather well given the resources that were available. Evidence suggests NCSoft ne Paragon Studios is willing to put several times more resources into CoH development than Cryptic was willing to in the past, as evidenced by the fact that there are double or triple the people working on CoH now than in the past.
I don't expect miracles, but I do expect to see improvements in development cycles over time, as those resources get fully incorporated into the development cycles. The major change has been less Jack to Matt, and more Cryptic's checkbook to NCSoft's, and NCSoft's seems to be bigger.
[ QUOTE ]
Now they're about to be trumped by the new slew of Super Hero MMOs coming out (DCO, MO, CO). I'm willing to bet that out of those three appearing within the next 2 years, one of them will effectively vapor CoH/V as it stands now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I doubt strongly that will happen with CO. Its always possible with DCUO, given the much larger amount of resources being poured into that game, anything is still possible. But I don't think its likely.
[ QUOTE ]
Your comment about adding to the robustness of the MA system by allowing the coloring (i.e. hue) of standard mobs is *exactly* the care taker type of development I'm talking about.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just for reference, I made that comment to note that players asked for the ability to "reskin" existing mobs in the MA during I14 beta, and were told that was a very difficult thing to do for a number of reasons (many mobs don't use the same skeletons, for example). However, they said they would look into at least altering the color palatte, which they seem to have followed up on. Similarly, the devs said that map editing was a long-term goal, but they would at least look at adding the placement markers to the maps and evolving from there. They seem to have done that as well. This suggests that the development of the MA didn't end with I14 beta, but continued past that point for those features to be added in I15 now. So this suggests that the devs are continuing to commit resources to improving the MA. Although some of those feature improvements seem to be superficial or have growing pains (i.e. memory optimization, custom power settings) it does seem they are showing a commitment to continuing development on the MA. It hasn't been put into "maintenance mode" yet.
I'm not by any means declaring victory yet, I'm just acknowledging that the rules of the game itself have been changed in the last 18 months, and its worth giving the devs a fresh look within that context. Also, even if some changes are not popular or functioning as expected, that shouldn't detract from an objective evaluation of whether the current dev team is doing more to expand the game than has been done in the past.
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Oh and for heaven sakes make a real expansion and plan on having a real expansion at least once a year.
Yes you might actually have to hire more then 3 devs (shocking I know).