[ QUOTE ]
Just a warning on CO, this limited system you are complaining about was designed by the same people making CO. Don't be surprised when you can't make your superman clone there either.
[/ QUOTE ]
This was the only point I was trying to make about CO ... it's an MMO being balanced as an MMO.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't be surprised when you can't make your superman clone there either.
[/ QUOTE ]
What about a pistol and sword wielding martial artist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool
Or a brawler with sonic powers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary
Or an armored hero with energy blasts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man
Or this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Jordan
Or the thousands of other very popular character concepts that aren't able to be realized in CoX's system, but can be realized in a more open system like CO's (assuming they add a sonics power set at some point).
Defend CoX's AT and power system as being the best they could come up with at the time if you like, but that doesn't change the fact the current devs haven't done much to improve it, remove the flaws in it or open it up for concepts like these and others.
Much could be done in this game to improve the situation, but the devs aren't doing it. Even more could be done if they could start fresh with CoH 2. They aren't doing that either. What they are doing, is pushing fluff and now an expansion pack that doesn't do anything about the outdated and limiting systems that are the real things that date CoX, hold it back and can make newer titles more attractive than they really should be.
.
I can make a brawler with sonic powers(sonic/energy blapper) and an armored hero with energy blasts(energy/whatever blaster). I can't the other two, but I haven't seen them in previews for CO either, in fact I have only seen the armor energy blast guy.
The devs also have done stuff to improve the game, we just had shields, willpower, and dual blades added. As far as changing the whole system, do you even know what you are asking? They can not change everything the way you want it, not just because it is impracticable, but because others do not want them to. There is also nothing the Devs can do to to keep other games from being appealing, new games come out all the time, people come and go, and if the devs spent all their time trying to match what the new guy has then we would have a worst game overall. CoX will always be a day late and dollar short, and just look like they are copying everyone to bring in nothing.
Dirges
[ QUOTE ]
The devs also have done stuff to improve the game
[/ QUOTE ]
You fail strawman
[ QUOTE ]
As far as changing the whole system, do you even know what you are asking?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, for a sequel with improved systems. Failing that, improving the existing systems within this game. As opposed to shoveling fluff via booster packs and expansions, ignoring flaws in their outdated, restrictive systems or just putting bandaids over top of them.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't be surprised when you can't make your superman clone there either.
[/ QUOTE ]
What about a pistol and sword wielding martial artist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool
Or a brawler with sonic powers?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Canary
Or an armored hero with energy blasts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man
Or this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Jordan
Or the thousands of other very popular character concepts that aren't able to be realized in CoX's system, but can be realized in a more open system like CO's (assuming they add a sonics power set at some point).
Defend CoX's AT and power system as being the best they could come up with at the time if you like, but that doesn't change the fact the current devs haven't done much to improve it, remove the flaws in it or open it up for concepts like these and others.
Much could be done in this game to improve the situation, but the devs aren't doing it. Even more could be done if they could start fresh with CoH 2. They aren't doing that either. What they are doing, is pushing fluff and now an expansion pack that doesn't do anything about the outdated and limiting systems that are the real things that date CoX, hold it back and can make newer titles more attractive than they really should be.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
because the minute you could, the company owning the game you did that in would be sued to the ground unless it was DC or Marvel
are you....are you saying black canary is a 'tank'?
you joined this game well after the lawsuits were finally settled. there was the very real possibility of claws, regen, super strength and invulnerability being yanked from the live game due to lawsuits from DC and Marvel
Pistol and sword wielding martial artist:
Katana/Regen scrapper. Add in the fighting pool and the pistol temp power.
Brawler with sonic powers:
Sonic/EM blaster with Boxing, Kick, Jump Kick.
Armored Hero with energy blasts:
any armor costume options with an energy blast set.
That guy:
Making direct clones is a no-no, and should be frowned upon. If you're looking for something similar in function, I'd recommend an FF/Energy Defender.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
The Fighting pool is not martial arts. Nor is Energy Melee. Armored looking costume parts do not an armored hero make.
Those are no more realizations of the examples given than Invulnerability was for will power characters or a single katana was for Dual Blades.
Nor is the pistol temp power for the upcomming Dual Pistol power set.
As always, you fail.
.
The problem is none of the suggestions you mention can wipe out a whole city with their mind, and are therefore insufficient ways to represent what Johnny wants nowwwwwwwwwwwww.
[ QUOTE ]
The Fighting pool is not martial arts. Nor is Energy Melee. Armored looking costume parts do not an armored hero make.
Those are no more realizations of the examples given than Invulnerability was for will power characters or a single katana was for Dual Blades.
Nor is the pistol temp power for the upcomming Dual Pistol power set.
As always, you fail.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the kick from the fighting pool is near identical to a standard front snap kick in most martial arts out there. As is the punching animations for boxing and energy punch. Unless, of course, you believe that "martial arts" means one very particular style, which would just be terribly ignorant on your part.
Same with the armored costume pieces. Those, in fact, do make an armored hero. He's in armor and he's fighting crime, thus he is an armored hero.
So, as I'm sure you won't see, just because you can't make the marvel clones you want doesn't mean you can't make characters with the same concepts fitted within the realm of this game.
You fail, as always.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
Having seen many of JB's posts, I have to say I agree with him in spirit. There are many things the game doesn't do that it COULD do with a little effort.
As I say, there's no reason tankers can't have energy blasts if they're balanced to do appropriate damage (whatever that may be). The same is true of anything.
The problem is that they can't allow any AT to use any power sets because the powers are no balanced against one another and the ATs are not balanced against one another. This is such a fundamental aspect that I don't see total proliferation of powers ever happening.
However, as I said earlier in this thread (before it started wandering all over), powers with simple effects should be entirely compatible as alternative to similar sets.
That is, damage sets should be easily swapped around, and the same is true of defensive sets.
As an example, I would probably say Spiderman would be a SR/MA Tanker (were he a CoH character), because of his ability to get and hold the enemy's attention. That's one of his defining characteristics. In my mind, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to make a SR/MA Tanker. It's the same pairing as Inv/SS (ie. Defense/Offense). Ranged attacks complicate this a bit, but again, with a little effort, they could be balanced too.
[ QUOTE ]
There are many things the game doesn't do that it COULD do with a little effort.
[/ QUOTE ]How do you know?
[ QUOTE ]
As an example, I would probably say Spiderman would be a SR/MA Tanker (were he a CoH character), because of his ability to get and hold the enemy's attention. That's one of his defining characteristics. In my mind, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to make a SR/MA Tanker. It's the same pairing as Inv/SS (ie. Defense/Offense). Ranged attacks complicate this a bit, but again, with a little effort, they could be balanced too.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree, especially if you could get Web Grenade from a Power Pool (as opposed to waiting almost your character's entire life for an Epic Pool). Rendering the Epic Pools open at level 6, or even level 10, would greatly expand on the number of concepts players could execute. Expanting on the number of Power Pools would too. So would removing prerequisites for pool powers the same way they did for Vets with travel powers.
There's lot of ways to open up the system more than it is withouth scrapping the whole thing or greatly unbalancing the game, yet the devs aren't doing them.
.
Because I can THINK. I have a brain and the ability to use my imagination.
MMOs are extremely susceptible to the law of unintended consequences. Very little is "easy" to do, and the stuff that is could lead to a lot of not easy work later on.
[ QUOTE ]
MMOs are extremely susceptible to the law of unintended consequences. Very little is "easy" to do, and the stuff that is could lead to a lot of not easy work later on.
[/ QUOTE ]
What about easy stuff like allowing players to get their travel powers earlier?
Oh wait, 60 Month Reward.
Guess that one was easy.
You see, that's a perfect example of a limitation that didn't need to exist, but did anyways. The devs were perfectly willing to allow players to do that...when they were hard up for a quickie reward that required little work or thought.
How many other frivolous limitations like that exist when they don't have to? A lot in my opinion. And why should they make an exception for one set of players but not all of them?
They can't honestly think one needs five years experience playing this game to NOT gimp themselves if that restriction was removed.
The restriction didn't need to exist. It didn't break the game for people when it was removed. This is one of those "lot of little things the devs could to improve, open up and make the existing system less restrictive" but aren't doing (or in this case, they're not doing it for everyone even though they could).
.
[ QUOTE ]
The Fighting pool is not martial arts. Nor is Energy Melee. Armored looking costume parts do not an armored hero make.
Those are no more realizations of the examples given than Invulnerability was for will power characters or a single katana was for Dual Blades.
Nor is the pistol temp power for the upcomming Dual Pistol power set.
As always, you fail.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is funny, you asked for a brawler not a martial artist. I guess since you have no clue what you even posted you fail. Also since blasters do get protection they are armored.
I also noticed you have yet to post any of your ideas most people agree with, and only resort to trying to make other look wrong. You are pathetic, and no longer need replying to, since you are just a baby troll, crying because they don't get their own way.
Dirges
The reasoning is quite simple in the end: it is simply not cost effective to make all the changes that you want. While I'll agree that there are many ways that this game could be modernised, the fact is that they're making solid profits the way they're going and a complete revamp is, at this juncture of the game's life, riskier than branching a development team to make a sequel.
Ultimately, the things being asked for are generally not things that a dev team with a product coming up to five years are going to just get up and do. They don't have the mandate to do so from the publisher. They can make small tweaks where they see fit and the occasional large focus enhancement, such as IOs, flashback, or side switching, when it is deemed the investment (which is often much more substantial than you seem to think) is going to bring interest back to the game.
While a complete revamp of the AT system or the addition of full world material physics would definitely drum up some interest, the development risk is simply far too high to be deemed worthy when what already exists is deemed by the majority of players as acceptable.
Essentially, it boils down to this: there are lots of things that you point out that I'd love to see, but I understand that if I'm likely to see them, they'll be from other games--other games that have their own flaws, which will have to be weighed on their own merits. That is, after all, how business works: look at the iPhone vs. Pre for a good example of this in other markets.
[ QUOTE ]
Because I can THINK. I have a brain and the ability to use my imagination.
[/ QUOTE ]I really am not convinced you can prove that. I can imagine a hamburger in my hand right now but it won't make it so. You can imagine something is simple and that does not make it simple. You only claim it is because you don't want to admit your own ignorance and would prefer a world in which the devs are unreasonable, cruel, or stupid, rather than people doing something more complex than something that you could do. Like the armchair quarterback or the military commentator, you are one of the many people who can neither do, nor teach, but realises neither.
[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, it boils down to this: there are lots of things that you point out that I'd love to see, but I understand that if I'm likely to see them,
[/ QUOTE ]
What that boils down to is the devs are unwilling to do what it takes to deliver on those things that people want. In this case, 'what it takes' would be a sequel.
The devs have said themsevles that their hands are tied by the old systems, and that's why they can't/won't do a lot of things. Yet they wont do what it takes to move on from those systems so they could do those things.
Instead they are milking their five-year-old cash cow dry, stringing players along with fluff and carrots (because they'll never tell players that a feature or change will never happen) instead of doing what it takes to give them what they want and to grow the game and the IP.
They're not growing. They're inbreeding with a pointless expansion pack that's a just cash grab. It's not going to bring in new players by numbers. It's not going to bring back players angry about the same broken crap that never got fixed and will never get fixed. It's not going to deliver on the things people want that newer games offer.
They're just waving a "new city" in front of people in hopes they'll forget long enough to part with the $29.99 or whatever that the two existing cities and the systems they're build on are filled with the same repetative content and outdated, unneeded restrictiions that the new one will be.
They're not doing what's best to serve player's interests and they're not doing what they could to deliver on what people want. Anything new in the expansion could be done in a sequel, with the addition to new, better systems and design principles.
.
[ QUOTE ]
In this case, 'what it takes' would be a sequel.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope they don't make a sequel. I think they're a terrible idea.
First problem is it would split their development team. Instead of having everyone work on one project, now their attention is divided which would slow updates to this game. It takes, what, 3 (?) years to develop an MMO from the ground up? So even if they started now, you wouldn't see CoH2 until 2012 or something.
The dev team isn't all that would be fractured - the player base would be as well. This originally wouldn't have been as big a problem as it is now because of the market. You know how villains complain about their market? Imagine it being worse. Less people playing means less recipes generated which means less sold on the market, kaboom. There's also the issue of people not wanting to lose their current investment / characters to transition to an unrpoven new game.
Take a look at this chart. Notice the EverQuest (light blue with triangles) population compared to that of EverQuest II (green with triangles). They started strong, but both populations ended up crashing. Their last data point shows the population of the games combined is less than that of EQ before EQII was releasted. Double the devs, double the servers, same to less number of subscribers.
In short, I'd rather they keep working on this game rather than make a new one. I don't see the pros outweighing the cons.
Then how can there be improvements made to systems that could and should be improved upon?
The devs have said they can't do a lot of things because of the legacy issues. Any new things you add are just bolted on to a rotting foundation.
Why should we have to keep broken, outdated crap when they can do better with a fresh start? In the case of the AT/power systems, the devs have said there can't be any major overhauls or improvements because of the legacy sytems and how they interact. Add to that a thousand other things players would like: super speeding up walls, power customization, environmental interaction, that also can't happen because they can't break free of the old design and old systems.
If you want improvements to the core systems, you're going to have to cut ties eventually. Five-seven years from launch is a good "eventually" in my opinion. That's a long time for any game's run, but there's this notion for some reasons that MMOs should go on forever. Eventually, they just end up shoveling fluff and snuffing themselves out (unless their developer's name ends in 'izzard').
And how long before they can't drum up support for a sequel even if they wanted to? From what I've seen, this expansion was hard fought, and I don't expect it to do as well as maybe the devs and the publisher hope it will. Now may be the last shot they get to make a sequel happen. I don't think Going Rogue will be able to extend CoX's life another five years and I don't think further expansions are likely either if it doesn't do spectacular, or at least better than CoV numbers.
.
[ QUOTE ]
Then how can there be improvements made to systems that could and should be improved upon?
The devs have said they can't do a lot of things because of the legacy issues. Any new things you add are just bolted on to a rotting foundation.
Why should we have to keep broken, outdated crap when they can do better with a fresh start? In the case of the AT/power systems, the devs have said there can't be any major overhauls or improvements because of the legacy sytems and how they interact. Add to that a thousand other things players would like: super speeding up walls, power customization, environmental interaction, that also can't happen because they can't break free of the old design and old systems.
If you want improvements to the core systems, you're going to have to cut ties eventually. Five-seven years from launch is a good "eventually" in my opinion. That's a long time for any game's run, but there's this notion for some reasons that MMOs should go on forever. Eventually, they just end up shoveling fluff and snuffing themselves out (unless their developer's name ends in 'izzard').
And how long before they can't drum up support for a sequel even if they wanted to? From what I've seen, this expansion was hard fought, and I don't expect it to do as well as maybe the devs and the publisher hope it will. Now may be the last shot they get to make a sequel happen. I don't think Going Rogue will be able to extend CoX's life another five years and I don't think further expansions are likely either if it doesn't do spectacular, or at least better than CoV numbers.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. We should all just quit to show them the error of their ways for not listening to a single extremely loud, annoying, uneducated and ignorant voice telling them what they should do with their game. Perhaps you should apply for a job as the senior VP (or whatever the title of the person who is ultimately responsible for CoX) since you seem to have all the answers.
*Waits for J_B to quit*
I don't have any special inside info on their engine, but I don't think all things are impossible, just time consuming. (I believe that's the big problem with power customization - time.) The effort spent on these time intensive features could have been better spent elsewhere. Writing an entirely new engine (and content for it) is something I'd also consider very time consuming.
The devs have been adding things to the game that would have originally been considered "impossible," but they have been getting more funding and developers to work on adding new features. (This includes their "R-Type" programmers, who knows what they're working on.) I believe Posi has also said something to the effect of (paraphrased): "the engine is actully quite powerful, and we haven't fully utilized it yet." So there's still room for the game to grow. (That may have been in terms of graphics, come to think of it. Hmm...)
On the subject of Going Rogue, I think it's far too early to judge it as a failure. I'd wait until we have a more comprehensive list of features before passing judgement. (The alignment system really intrigues me.)
In the end, the game doesn't have what you're looking for in a super hero game. You want a brand new game to fit your desires. I'm sure theres a non-trivial number of people who like CoH as it is now (AT system included) - discarding those people in lieu of a sequel would be a mistake.
[ QUOTE ]
I believe Posi has also said something to the effect of (paraphrased): "the engine is actully quite powerful, and we haven't fully utilized it yet." So there's still room for the game to grow. (That may have been in terms of graphics, come to think of it. Hmm...)
[/ QUOTE ]
That was in reference to graphics, and I agree with it. What's largely limiting CoH from looking better than it does now isn't the engine. The engine, optimizations aside, is robust enough for the game to look better than it does.
What's hamstringing them are the art assets. Having to redo all of them to take advantage of new tech dropped in/unlocked from the existing engine is just as, if not more, time intensive than redoing them all for a new game.
In fact, it's worse because keeping it in this game, they have to make sure any new assets match up with old ones. You can't have the new stuff look too good. You can see the difference in something as simple as the old hair styles vs the ones that came in i11.
Again, their hands are tied by the garbage of the past 5 years instead of having the freedom to design something truly awesome.
But that's graphics. The AT/Power system being stuck the way it is has little to do with tech and everything to do with legacy issues. They can't even re-order powers without a huge fuss.
We can't run on/climb walls not because the engine couldn't do it, but because they'd have to go into every building/surface model and tag it as being able to be traversed. It's more easy to do that as part of the creation pipeline than redressing everything after the fact.
Power customization is a big deal because the system wasn't designed to support it. If the could start fresh, it wouldn't be a big deal at all.
[ QUOTE ]
On the subject of Going Rogue, I think it's far too early to judge it as a failure. I'd wait until we have a more comprehensive list of features before passing judgement.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm judging it based on the information they've released and on the survey that spawned the expansion. I'm also judging it on the fact they didn't release any new information or material since, or at E3, which betrays a lack of faith to me.
[ QUOTE ]
discarding those people in lieu of a sequel would be a mistake.
[/ QUOTE ]
Discarding other people because you wont do what it takes to grow your game and keep it competitive with newer games for those people's attention is also a mistake in my opinion.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers can't be balanced to your vision within a vacuum, no matter how much you post to the contrary.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet when I propose suggestions on how to achieve this, most people agree that the suggestions are not unreasonable or not worth exploring.
[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, of what I know of CO, it will not be the life changing event that you think it will.
[/ QUOTE ]
At least with CO we have someone attemping a more open and improved power/character creation system. That's more than you can say for CoX's current devs who ignore the problems and limitations of their system and are making little or no effort to improve it.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
You sure, I haven't seen any where that most people agree with your ideas, though I haven't seen much of your opinion. Just that you want tanks to be high survivability and high damage like in comics. Which won't work in a MMO.
Just a warning on CO, this limited system you are complaining about was designed by the same people making CO. Don't be surprised when you can't make your superman clone there either.
Dirges