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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?
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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.
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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.
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Tell that to the Clockwork in the two Clockwork King missions you get in Peregrine Island.
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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.
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Levels don't enter into it. I'd say the same about a Malta Zeus Titan.
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cause comic books have levels? someone is reading kung-fu comics now i guess
dunno why you folks keep feeding him and this thread - his hypocrisy is ludicrous
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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?
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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.
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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.
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Tell that to the Clockwork in the two Clockwork King missions you get in Peregrine Island.
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The Clockwork in question are the regular ol' electric attack spamming variety.
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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?
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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.
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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.
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Tell that to the Clockwork in the two Clockwork King missions you get in Peregrine Island.
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The Clockwork in question are the regular ol' electric attack spamming variety.
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Where did Vox specify that? Or is that just another convenient distinction only you're making, like 'lowest melee damage dealer'?
When did tanks get EMP pulse? This thread has left me stunned and unable to recover endurance for 4 days.
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Where did Vox specify that? Or is that just another convenient distinction only you're making, like 'lowest melee damage dealer'?
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He said 'Clockwork Boss'
If he had meant otherwise he should have specified 'Psychic Clockwork Boss', because the two groups have different names.
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Way to miss the point genius.
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^That.
Seriously. Do you even know what the point you're arguing against is..? 
QR
Weatherby_Goode - "Heck, Carrion Creepers negates the knockdown from Carrion Creepers."
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Way to miss the point genius.
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^That.
Seriously. Do you even know what the point you're arguing against is..?
[/ QUOTE ]Johnny is attempting to pick nits, because the alternative would be raising his level of discourse to the point where he can't just accuse wildly, state without justification, and invent numbers.
And, to be clear, brute handclap does allow him to pick up clockwork bosses and rip them in two, whether they be level 20 or 50. That clearly shows tankers need more damage.
Wow, I made that big long post, and not one comment?
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Wow, I made that big long post, and not one comment?
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No offense, but "how I would have designed the Archetypes" posts have been done a million times. Don't be surprised by people just skipping over them.
Heh, probably true, but I thought in the context of this thread, someone might have looked at it. Ok well.
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Heh, probably true, but I thought in the context of this thread, someone might have looked at it. Ok well.
[/ QUOTE ]Don't get me wrong, it's good that you're thinking about that. But you need to take the next step, which is to go from 'How I would have done things,' and then into the realm of 'This is how I would change things as they are now.'
Note, that 'change' is carefully used word there. You have to know a lot to really know what's a good change. You need to know how powers work. You need to know how they don't work. You need to consider everything that's been set up one way or another way in the game has a reason for that set up. Understand, consider, then propose.
Much like the devs, just because people don't comment on it doesn't mean people haven't looked at it. They just have nothing to say about it. That includes myself.
Oh, I have considered, but the fact is the changes I'd make are so sweeping, they'd never agree to make them.
I really just put it there to illustrate how the classes could have been comparably the same, yet distinct in groups, all equally capable of soloing, all able to use any powers they want.
That would have made this whole thread moot!
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Here's another question. What is the scrapper supposed to be doing while the tanker is still handling all the aggro management, soaking up the damage AND going after the boss?
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Seriously, he should be clearing the crowds with his faster attacks like a little blender set to 'Mince'. You wanna give someone better AoE? Give it to Scrappers. They're apparently hard up for a team role. Larger crowds are found on teams, which is an area I don't think Tankers have a problem.
Better AoE really wont help Tankers when solo, unless you want to make them better at grinding in hazard zones, which is a goal I don't share.
Wolverine, Daredevil, they fight a bazillion ninjas. Colossus or the Thing take on the giant ninja robot.
EDIT *Ahem*
On who comic Tankers fight:
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...avyhitters.jpg
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I generally don't get involved in these sort of threads, because nothing is ever resolved, and it turns into an 'You vs Me' competition. Nevertheless, I'm amused that I'm getting a not-so-weak sense of deja vu.
Back in '05, I PM'd Statesman with this very concept. I can't remember the circumstances, but it was when Tankers were up in arms - reading back through the original PMs, I think it was to do with our slashing of non-S/L Resists. Anyway, I said:
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[...] What seems obvious to me is that the Tankers - if we follow established Comic Book mythos - are designed for heavy damage one-on-one. The "Slug It And See" fighters. They're not particularly well-designed for fighting the masses. The X-Men send in Colossus to take out the single larger foe, for example.
But that's fine, because as mighty as Colossus is, he can't do it all alone. The rest of the team don't sit back and say "Well... who watched 'Lost' last night?"
When it comes to sheer numbers: this is the "Scrappers" domain. Whilst not as physically powerful as the "Tanks", their ferocity and speed in combat more than makes up for it. Captain America tears through waves of villains like tissue paper. Not because he does more damage, but because of the speed he can dish it out.
The general point I am trying to make (and succeeding like a beached whale) is that Scrappers shouldn't have been dubbed "Boss Killers", with high damage caps. Granted, their criticals make sense, but their strength should have laid with their incredible recharge rates of attacks. To have an almost continous chain of damage by even the earliest of levels. A much higher DPS, I think is the correct terminology, but with generally lower actual damage output. Surrounded by foes, their attacks should have had written AoE all over it. The Melee AoE Specialist, if you like. Against Bosses, their talent should have been delivering DPS that would negate - or at least slow - the regeneration of these bigger villains.
Tankers, on the other hand, should have been highly skilled at toe-to-toe combat. Very high damage, but with much slower recharges than Scrappers. One-shotting even cons shouldnt have been something to balk from, since their DPS would be - in comparison - vastly inferior to a Scrapper. On the other hand, their survivability in groups should have been based on taking the hits and keep going..one mob at a time.
As you can see above, both ATs would have had aggro-management abilities, but with very different methods of doing so.
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At the time, I thought this was at least a reasonable suggestion (if not with realistic chance of ever being successful). Of course, today, I realise I was attempting to shoe-horn my own preconceptions of what I see the Tanker should do... despite it, still to this day, being the most logical in my opinion.
However, after receiving the below reply, I knew that changes of this magnitude would be completely dismissed; be it due to the complexity required, or the sheer stubboness of the Lead Dev. Whether the 'new administration' is more open to such debate is, itself, open to debate. But I found the reply below telling...for so many different reasons:
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City of Heroes is its own universe - not based on or related to any trademarked or copyrighted properties. As a result, City of Heroes characters are different from others...
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Anyway, this is old news. But I thought it's interesting that 4 years later, we're talking about the same thing.
EDIT: Just to clarify: I don't want to change how Tankers (or indeed Scrappers!) functions these days. I've accepted that what I want isn't always what others want. Certainly, this whole debate doesn't have the backing that Knockout Blow once did. End of the day, it's an interesting thought experiment but on-the-whole redundant.
MMMyeeahhh.... I don't buy that answer either, or Statesman and every other "Tanker" NPC wouldn't be doing 10 times as much damage as ours do. It always seemed to me that they preferred to ram the AT-group-MMO-Thing down our throats.
That said, I totally agree with your assessment, though I'd have based it on power set rather than AT. That is, Super Strength would be slow, but heavy hitting, Martial Arts would be fast, but not as powerful per blow.
Actually, it occurs to me (referring to my long post about "how I'd do it") that a good way to increase damage output without actually needing a mechanic like Defiance or Fury would be to increase attack rate (thus, a Tanker with Super Strength would attack more slowly than a Scrapper with Super Strength, thereby allowing the Scrapper to do more damage).
Hm.
NPCs are written and don't have to comply to balance. That's why they get to break the rules. Bonus, they're stupid.
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Can you tell me how to slot Hand Clap to make it pick up a Boss over my head and break it in half?
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In a comic book representation of a CoH fight, my Tank could definitely pick up a Clockwork Boss and tear it in half.
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I know exactly what you mean..... 
*looks at Hurl and sighs*
Keep in mind, too, that many players don't like having to sit around and wait for attacks to recharge. That would probably have been the greatest hurdle to your idea back then, and now.
Combat in this game is FAST. Being able to only get one or two hits in in a fight probably wouldn't make you feel too super, either. Hitting REALLY hard, then sitting there and waiting for your attacks to recharge would bore a lot of people, I'd wager, especially on teams. This change would also hurt low-level Tankers the most, and that's the group that could probably use the most help.
Also, back in the day, it might not have been too bad to make this change. But with the addition of Gauntlet, and IOs, the situation changes. Gauntlet is a decent way to keep aggro on you, just from swinging your fists. Slowing down Tanker attack recharge values would mean less ability to use Gauntlet, and more of a necessity to use Taunt to keep aggro. IOs allow you to do a lot of things, but one of the best things they do is increase Recharge. If you increased Tanker damage, and increased Recharge values, but allowed them to be fully enhanceable, even with +Rec IO set bonuses, you could see a huge increase in performance from high-level Tankers. I don't really think that would keep them in balance with the other ATs, who can't build to increase damage by that much.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Oh, I get all that. That was an idea I had after just 1 year in the game, after all - and I'm not the number-cruncher you lot are. :P
I understood the mechanics a lot less then I do now. I'm of the school of Havok (or was it Kruunch?) who coined the slogan during the KOB campaign "I just want to punch the bejesus out of stuff!".
But, yes, you're right.
As an example of my less-than-concerned interest in combat statistics, I also submitted to Statesman in '05 something called "Comic Book Mode" where you set an option that removes the damage numbers from combat, and replacing them with onomatopoeia ("Boom!" "Freem!" "KPOW!") - others here - to give the game a more immersive 'comic book' feel if you wanted it, and not worry about DPS and other stuff.
I got an "Interesting...".
I bet CO will get it. Heh.
But I digress.
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Oh, I get all that. That was an idea I had after just 1 year in the game, after all - and I'm not the number-cruncher you lot are. :P
I understood the mechanics a lot less then I do now. I'm of the school of Havok (or was it Kruunch?) who coined the slogan during the KOB campaign "I just want to punch the bejesus out of stuff!".
But, yes, you're right.
As an example of my less-than-concerned interest in combat statistics, I also submitted to Statesman in '05 something called "Comic Book Mode" where you set an option that removes the damage numbers from combat, and replacing them with onomatopoeia ("Boom!" "Freem!" "KPOW!") - others here - to give the game a more immersive 'comic book' feel if you wanted it, and not worry about DPS and other stuff.
I got an "Interesting...".
I bet CO will get it. Heh.
But I digress.
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So that's where they got the idea for their April Fools joke a year or two ago. 
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day
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I completely understand Ultimo's concept. Speaking for myself and a handful of others, I drew and wrote my own comic books with original characters who had a variety of powers long before City of Heroes came out. Some of them may have used blast typed powers but were also resilient (as a reference: Silver Surfer type character). In some rare cases, you can't fully create a concept character using the power selections and 99 times out of 100, for good reason.
This is why I love MA; it finally allows me to make almost all of the characters I created in my youth. I wish that I could play AS them but for now it has to be good enough that I fight along side them or against them.
Again, I wish that there was a game similar to CoH where issues of balance didn't exist where I could play an energy blast/inv blaster or a mind control/martial arts scrapper but since the mmorpg side of the game takes precedence over unlimited creativity I just rely on imagination which is fine.
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Yeah of course. He's like a level 50 and the Clockwork stop at level 20.
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Levels don't enter into it. I'd say the same about a Malta Zeus Titan.