How would you change the Stone Armor set?

I very much enjoy playing my Stone Armor tank (he's currently lvl 45) but I found it interesting to hear some of the comments on Stone Armor spread throughout the tanker threads recently. (You'll have to excuse me if I paraphrased a bit.) Comments have ranged from "it's disappointing that the tier 9 power makes most of the previous amours in the set useless" to "I'd be happy to give up some of the uberness of Granite armor to regain some of the -dmg, -recharge and -speed".

Those comments got me thinking: Given the chance, what changes would I make to the Stone Armor set? While I admit I haven't researched any solid numbers to back this as it's mostly a rough idea so far, so if you want some numbers to support this, sorry I haven't got any. Do I think they're necessary? No, not really, but I think it makes for a good discussion and may bring out better ideas from the community at large. Do I think this might be an interesting direction? I hope so.

With those caviates mentioned, here goes.

1. I'd change things so that Rock/Brimstone/Minerals and Crystal Armors can be run with Granite. I'd add in a little bit of resist/defense into the individual armors. I'd make holes in Granite so that it wasn't the end all/be all with the base line 20%def 50% resist, but an end cap to the other armors that would bring the whole set to that near uberness. To keep some game balance, the final numbers would probably have to be less then can currently be achieved with Stone Skin/Granite combined, but still high enough to keep stone the sturdiest tank set. I'd also make it difficult to run all the armors at the same time, which brings me to my second point.

2. I'd make changes to end costs so that you wouldn't want run all the armors all the time as it would be too end heavy to do so. This would require a little bit more managing of the stone armor set, but would create shifting holes to keep it from being too uber all the time. Similar to what folks do with the dark armor set because of end costs.


3. To make up for the increased end usage/penalty in the armor set itself I'd offset some of the -dmg, -rech, and -spd of granite. I'd remove the -dmg, halve the -recharge if not more and drop the - speed by 20%. Again, trying to find some balance between end use and effectiveness.

4. The last thing I'd like to see changed is a cosmetic change. My Stoner out of Granite stands 4' nothin. But once I hit it I look exactly like every Stone Armour tank around. I'd love to see the Granite "costume" scale to fit your toon size, just like Ice Armour does. This is something I really would like to see changed. I'm not even interested in changing the color of the Granite armor, although I suspect some folks would like that as well.

Well, there you go. Have at it folks. Pick it apart, dissect it. Tell me I'm out in left field or not. But in the end I want to ask you, how would you change Stone Armor if you could?

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!

Don't think end usage would be a problem seeing that people do this w/ Spines/Dark Armor already

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I'd make Granite the only penalized power, no movement debuff in Rooted (sure it makes conceptual sense, but so did Unyielding.)

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I would add mini-costume creator for all of the armor toggles that would allow players to mix and match and come up with unique versions of their armors.

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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull

"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat

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I'd make Granite the only penalized power, no movement debuff in Rooted (sure it makes conceptual sense, but so did Unyielding.)

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Or, at the very least, allow people the ability to jump, just enough to get over curbs.

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I'd make Granite the only penalized power, no movement debuff in Rooted (sure it makes conceptual sense, but so did Unyielding.)

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Or, at the very least, allow people the ability to jump, just enough to get over curbs.

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BAH! everyone knows Stone Tanks have troll toes! All ya have to do is kick the curbs to smithereens!

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The BIG consolidated LIST for BASE LUV
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV

I love my stone tank, and I have a feeling that if granite was modified in any way I would stop enjoying it. It is by far my favorite power in the game.

That said... I think the curve on stone armor is very rough. Until you get granite it is an absolute chore to try to soak damage and doing missions you feel pretty vulnerable. I think I probably died pre-32 on my stone tank more than any other char I've made, and haven't died since post-32. Very dramatic change. I MIGHT be supportive of fixes for that problem, but I kind of think it's a rite of passage in some ways. If you can survive the grindtastic 32 levels of stone armor pre-granite, you can be a beast post-granite.

I agree completely about scaling, but beyond that anything I think would just drive me away from the set.

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Remove the penaltites from rooted and balance it against the other status protections (which I think it mostly is anyway).

Remove most of the Def bonuses from Granite Armor make it maybe 5% defense, reduce the resistance bonus from 50% to 40% (number may need tweaking, to balance it with other power sets) and spread those 10% resistance to out over the other armors (so lethal/smashing armor would give both resistance and defense to lethal and smashing). Then allow the tanker to use all armors at the same time. When not running Granite armor the tanker is comparable with other tankers out there not using their ultimate protection power (well, the sets that has one anyway) and when putting on granite it would be comparable to the inv. tanker hitting unstoppable. But where unstoppable has a 15 minute cooldown or something like that, the Granite armor is a toggle, but also comes with the built-in penalties that it already has. So yes, you could run around in granite all the time, but 90% of the stone tankers would probably not hit granite until in the middle of a mob and that only if they really felt it was a problem they couldn't handle without. This would also allow stone tankers to get other powers than teleport for travel, since they could detoggle that granite armor to use fly, jump or super-speed. It would also get rid of the "At 32 all my previous armor powers are obsolete! Eat that, other tankers"-thing.

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Perhaps if rooted was nudged towards something closer to Grounded from the Elec Armor.
Essentially remove the -jump, make the slow resistable so it can be built around. That way you can regain mobility to jump a curb but you still have to be in actual contact with the ground to recieve the status protection and regen buff.

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Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders

I'd remove at least the inability to jump from Rooted. Ideally, I'd like it to be useable in conjunction with all travel powers even if they were somewhat hampered.

As for Granite, I'd like to see it augment the character's appearance rather than replace it. I'd like to see *it* work with all travel powers as well, though it should hamper their effectiveness perhaps with jump/speed caps. And I think it should perhaps be useable with other armors.

Also, I think the damage penalty is ridiculous. The recharge penalty is fine, but it fits more to have a damage bonus than a penalty.

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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound

I think that all these changes move Stone toward Invulnerability and Willpower. I think it's unique and interesting as-is.

People pay tons of money for purple recipes -- why is that? They are a significantly better than all the rest at what they do, and you cannot get them with merits or tickets -- so people will pay full price for them. Similarly, Granite offers significant survival advantage. The penalties seem severe, but plenty of people, myself included, have endured them to get that top-end durability.

Conceptually as well, to me anyway, it makes sense that "turtling up" into the super-heavy armor involves tradeoffs. You become the ultimate anvil for foes to beat against.

I suppose I wouldn't be totally opposed to some kind of changes, but I am opposed to watering it down with weaker durability in exchange for fewer offensive penalties; it's too close to homogenization for my taste.

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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

I like the idea of Granite stacking with the other toggles instead of replacing them (obviously adjusting resist/defense number to suit).

I also think most, if not all of the penalties should be removed.

This game had a ridiculous notion at release on what constituted game "balance": We'll turn you into God, and just make it god awful to play. (boggle).

Since then there has been a big shift in power sets in general to minimize or remove entirely, the negative aspects of powers. I think Stone Tankers should be the benefit of this at some point (more so then they have been).

P.S. - I agree about Granite form scaling in size, but just remember Granite tankers once looked like Earth Controller's poop monster pets. Be glad with what ya got

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I also think most, if not all of the penalties should be removed.

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If you remove the penalties, you will also need to downgrade the overall strength of the set. It is by far the most durable tanker set. It surpass all the other tanker sets in that area by A LOT!!!!

Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.

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Stone armor is just fine. IO's do remove the penalties you speak of. You can have a postive run speed bonus, positive recharge speed bonus, and diminish the damage reduction of Granite with IO's. So what if you get stuck on a curb....

My stone/fire tank has fly as a travel power. I have never taken TP on it and I dont plan to.

I would much rather they beef up fire armor before they nerf granite.

I also spend more time out of granite... with IO's you cn cap S/L defense. (I also have Tough and Weave... it works awesome on the "regen" tank....)

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YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember

The only changes I'd make to Stone Armor are purely cosmetic. I have a 50 stone tanker who doesn't get out much any more - mostly because playing on teams, I'll be in Granite most of the time, and the appearance of Granite bores me and erases my character's concept. The aesthetics of the other armors are not helping, either. I don't see this happening, and frankly I'd make adding emote support to Shields a higher priority.

Since it seems that 50% of defenders are Kinetics, and an even higher percentage of Controllers, so much so that you remember a defender or controller who isn't going to spam you with that annoying movement control debuff, the ability to remove the Granite movement penalty with buffs might be nerfed slightly. Used to be that one of the advantages of Stone Armor was that you could make the team wait for you, moving slowly and conning enemies first.

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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

I'd make Rooted and Granite's movement debuff resistible (but I would not lower them) and I'd make it possible to jump with a much reduced max jump height.

Stone Skin could also offer resistance to most other damage types (not toxic or psi) ( 5% or 7.5%).

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I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

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I also think most, if not all of the penalties should be removed.

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If you remove the penalties, you will also need to downgrade the overall strength of the set. It is by far the most durable tanker set. It surpass all the other tanker sets in that area by A LOT!!!!

Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.

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I did say that the bonuses should be lowered to layer over the top of the existing toggles (rather than replace them).

Additionally Granite is the only T9 power in a Tanker primary that you *have* to take to make the set really work (as we've become accustomed to it working).

Because it "works" doesn't mean it's "fine". Obviously enough players have complained about the power drawbacks and aesthetics to make this an issue.

The aesthetics are less bothersome to me now then they once were (hello poop monster!) however the reason I've deleted every Stoner I've made (3 to date) is because Granite is so cumbersome to play.

Spending hundreds of millions of influence to make it operate offensively, like any other Tanker is a ridiculous answer. You don't fix tediousness with tedium.

Duh.

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I would be hesitant to make granite layer over the other toggles without a major overhaul of the end costs for each.
granite/rooted/mudpots already uses quite enough without the additional drain of three or four more toggles layered on top.

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Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders

Rooted: Make the -Jump penalty -95% Jump so you can make small bounds (about the hieght of a normal step).

Granite: Add Speed/Rech resistance. Sorry stoners, one Kin should not be able to complete negate the down side of this awesome power. Sure a couple of Kins can speed you up, but not a single one.

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Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion

"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."

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I'd make Granite the only penalized power, no movement debuff in Rooted (sure it makes conceptual sense, but so did Unyielding.)

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Or, at the very least, allow people the ability to jump, just enough to get over curbs.

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Yeah, cruising along and suddenly bumping into a curb is pretty much a "what the $%#$%?" DAMN CURB!

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!

[ QUOTE ]
Remove the penaltites from rooted and balance it against the other status protections (which I think it mostly is anyway).

Remove most of the Def bonuses from Granite Armor make it maybe 5% defense, reduce the resistance bonus from 50% to 40% (number may need tweaking, to balance it with other power sets) and spread those 10% resistance to out over the other armors (so lethal/smashing armor would give both resistance and defense to lethal and smashing). Then allow the tanker to use all armors at the same time. When not running Granite armor the tanker is comparable with other tankers out there not using their ultimate protection power (well, the sets that has one anyway) and when putting on granite it would be comparable to the inv. tanker hitting unstoppable. But where unstoppable has a 15 minute cooldown or something like that, the Granite armor is a toggle, but also comes with the built-in penalties that it already has. So yes, you could run around in granite all the time, but 90% of the stone tankers would probably not hit granite until in the middle of a mob and that only if they really felt it was a problem they couldn't handle without. This would also allow stone tankers to get other powers than teleport for travel, since they could detoggle that granite armor to use fly, jump or super-speed. It would also get rid of the "At 32 all my previous armor powers are obsolete! Eat that, other tankers"-thing.

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This is sort of along the lines of what I was thinking. I still believe there should be some penalties for running what is ultimately the uber tank, just not as much as they currently are.

I still think there should be a way to keep you from having all the damage/resist holes covered all the time. Whether that's through a game mechanic or end cost I'm not really sure. Having the current hole to psi isn't a bad thing, game balance wise and I doubt the devs would allow all the holes to be covered all the time.

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!

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Perhaps if rooted was nudged towards something closer to Grounded from the Elec Armor.
Essentially remove the -jump, make the slow resistable so it can be built around. That way you can regain mobility to jump a curb but you still have to be in actual contact with the ground to recieve the status protection and regen buff.

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It's certainly an interesting idea, but some may argue that it then would be "just like grounded"

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!

[ QUOTE ]
Rooted: Make the -Jump penalty -95% Jump so you can make small bounds (about the hieght of a normal step).

Granite: Add Speed/Rech resistance. Sorry stoners, one Kin should not be able to complete negate the down side of this awesome power. Sure a couple of Kins can speed you up, but not a single one.

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I like this, I also like the idea of it adding-to the existing armors, not replacing. I would keep the speed penalty, and yes, preventing a kin from negating your run penalty is good. I would allow the attack-rate bonus, however.

But good gods, no pile-o-poo armor!

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I think that all these changes move Stone toward Invulnerability and Willpower. I think it's unique and interesting as-is.

People pay tons of money for purple recipes -- why is that? They are a significantly better than all the rest at what they do, and you cannot get them with merits or tickets -- so people will pay full price for them. Similarly, Granite offers significant survival advantage. The penalties seem severe, but plenty of people, myself included, have endured them to get that top-end durability.

Conceptually as well, to me anyway, it makes sense that "turtling up" into the super-heavy armor involves tradeoffs. You become the ultimate anvil for foes to beat against.

I suppose I wouldn't be totally opposed to some kind of changes, but I am opposed to watering it down with weaker durability in exchange for fewer offensive penalties; it's too close to homogenization for my taste.

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I wouldn't want to water down the survivability greatly if at all. I was leaning towards having to manage your armors to have your weakness be shifted around. Make it so you can use Minerals with Granite, but then maybe you can't use Brimstone or Crystals as well.

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!

I haven't been around long enough in the game to know that Granite used to look like Poo Monster. I'm certainly glad that it doesn't anymore.

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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!