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The fact that the base stone build only matches this level of survivability without utility or damage boosts and such an insane investment is the true issue. The set should be much higher than that. As for the granite fixes stone issues the set should work without Tier 9s. The tier nine for armor sets is always meant to be a utility situational power with penalties or drastic pre-requirements built in (like death.) Granite cant even claim to be open to interpretation there since it is so obvious it was meant to be full of penalties that even a blind man could see it.
Thats not to note no single power set should suck until it gets its 9th power. Regardless whether Granite is meant to be as is or not, the base Stone build should be much more survivable than it is, or bring a lot more utility and damage. Damage would require replacing powers and that wont happen. Utility MAY be possible but nowhere near enough to justify the low level it suffers now.
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Thats why I didn't think "fixed" was the right word. It's more like that granite makes up for the pain previously experienced.
Re: granite "replaces" 4 powers... 2 of which most people don't even take (brimstone and crystal) and 1 of which is extremely situational in minerals. I will give you rock armor... but if for some reason granite was removed from the game but the set was left exactly as is... I STILL don't think I would take either brimstone or crystal. I know that's not what you were saying, but to me it's less of a problem that granite is good, and more of a problem that these two armors are so bad.
It would be interesting to me to know how many players completely respec out of rock armor after level 32, and who keeps it. My guess is most keep it for soloing and small groups, but it would be an interesting data point.
As far as the numbers vs FA...
Even with an IO build that negates a large portion of the penalties in granite I still run rock armor, tough, weave, rooted while soloing and in small groups.
I think it's hard to deny that granite provides utility. It gives players an alternate set of toggles to run solo or in a smaller group and that to me is a lot more valuable than the extra damage or regen in FA.
In FA if you are solo'ing and you bite off a bit more than you can chew you have a much higher risk than a stone armor tank that can simply turn on granite and will likely live and will have time to both regen and recover. Solo I look at granite like unstoppable without the crash, and with lower attack values. I know on my stone tank I can take significantly more risk soloing than I can on some of my other tankers because if I happen to ride too close to that edge I can always flip that switch and be unkillable.
Just the same I don't disagree that more utility out of the armors (mostly brimstone and crystal) would be nice, but those kinds of powers are in a lot of sets, and in particular a lot of tanker sets outside of stone armor need a lot more tlc than stone IMO.
I would not go into those arguments for two reasons:
1) toggling granite detogles your other armors. You can only switch back stright into one protection leaving a lot of hole opens until you manage to patch the rest.
2) all those arguments just would lead the devs to make granite have a higher recharge after de-togling or another sort of nerf than allow the rest of the set to be sub par, should they decide to look at them.
If you treat Stone as a full set with granite, all you will do is get it nerfed because as you note, if the set is revised they will do what they can to make the set viable from 1 to 32.
Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.
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Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.
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I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.
I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.
My issue with Stone is that in an attempt to make each Tanker primary as individualistic as possible, they (the devs) chose that to mean in mechanics as well as intent. Hence the only T9 powers that you absolutely *have* to take out of all the Tanker primaries to make the set work at high levels reasonably well.
Is this broken? Obviously not since Stone works as is and is even considered the best "tanking" set going.
Is it good design? Here I would argue no and I think this is the main area where people are throwing their opinions about.
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Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.
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I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.
I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.
My issue with Stone is that in an attempt to make each Tanker primary as individualistic as possible, they (the devs) chose that to mean in mechanics as well as intent. Hence the only T9 powers that you absolutely *have* to take out of all the Tanker primaries to make the set work at high levels reasonably well.
Is this broken? Obviously not since Stone works as is and is even considered the best "tanking" set going.
Is it good design? Here I would argue no and I think this is the main area where people are throwing their opinions about.
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I could argue though that a lot of sets have powers that you "have" to take. In particular a lot of the tanker sets have powers are mandatory it's just that this one happens to be at tier 9.
Inv is all but required to take ti, uy, and inv and I guess I have a hard time seeing the difference just because granite is at tier 9.
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1) toggling granite detogles your other armors. You can only switch back stright into one protection leaving a lot of hole opens until you manage to patch the rest.
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Generally speaking, you're only really toggling back Rock, and maybe Minerals, and those situations you're reliant on Minerals, you're prolly not getting into Granite in the first place (at least if you build properly). Most ppl bind Granite & Rock to toggle between the two. Still, that's a valid point, as is...
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2) all those arguments just would lead the devs to make granite have a higher recharge after de-togling or another sort of nerf than allow the rest of the set to be sub par, should they decide to look at them.
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Which is why I already mix in some recharge IOs in Granite, because the recharge time bet. Granite can already kill you if you're not careful. But I agree, I'd rather the devs not think about this too deeply, so I at least will stop talking about this matter. Like I said very early on, I like Stone just fine the way it is. 
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.
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I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.
I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.
My issue with Stone is that in an attempt to make each Tanker primary as individualistic as possible, they (the devs) chose that to mean in mechanics as well as intent. Hence the only T9 powers that you absolutely *have* to take out of all the Tanker primaries to make the set work at high levels reasonably well.
Is this broken? Obviously not since Stone works as is and is even considered the best "tanking" set going.
Is it good design? Here I would argue no and I think this is the main area where people are throwing their opinions about.
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I could argue though that a lot of sets have powers that you "have" to take. In particular a lot of the tanker sets have powers are mandatory it's just that this one happens to be at tier 9.
Inv is all but required to take ti, uy, and inv and I guess I have a hard time seeing the difference just because granite is at tier 9.
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The difference is that UY, TI and Invince don't override eachother ... they compliment eachother.
Granite replaces all the toggles below it. That's bad design imo (my main beef aside from the lack of customization of the stone form itself)).
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Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.
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I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.
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That's why i said "relative"
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I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.
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That is why i did not account for Healing Flames on the alphas.
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The difference is that UY, TI and Invince don't override eachother ... they compliment eachother.
Granite replaces all the toggles below it. That's bad design imo (my main beef aside from the lack of customization of the stone form itself)).
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Plus they are available by lvl 20, technically the level you are finally "out of the gate and into the world." All required powers should be available by then.
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Despite how some build their tanks, the set has to be viable from level 1 relative to other sets at those level ranges.
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I think you're getting away from the OP. The set obviously is "viable" from level 1 ... otherwise you would not have any Stoners around.
I agree with your analysis of Stone and Fire pre-Granite with the exception of alphas where Healing Flames may become a non-factor.
My issue with Stone is that in an attempt to make each Tanker primary as individualistic as possible, they (the devs) chose that to mean in mechanics as well as intent. Hence the only T9 powers that you absolutely *have* to take out of all the Tanker primaries to make the set work at high levels reasonably well.
Is this broken? Obviously not since Stone works as is and is even considered the best "tanking" set going.
Is it good design? Here I would argue no and I think this is the main area where people are throwing their opinions about.
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I could argue though that a lot of sets have powers that you "have" to take. In particular a lot of the tanker sets have powers are mandatory it's just that this one happens to be at tier 9.
Inv is all but required to take ti, uy, and inv and I guess I have a hard time seeing the difference just because granite is at tier 9.
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The difference is that UY, TI and Invince don't override eachother ... they compliment eachother.
Granite replaces all the toggles below it. That's bad design imo (my main beef aside from the lack of customization of the stone form itself)).
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But really as I was trying to say before the only toggle in my opinion that it replaces is rock armor which I think a lot of people still use even in a granite build. I wouldn't take brimstone or crystal even without granite. They just aren't very good powers and don't provide anything other than very specific typed defenses and nothing else. Minerals is very very specific but it is just a little more useful because having psi defenses is so rare in the game and there are a small handful of missions that are strictly psi. Even then, I probably still wouldn't take minerals either just because it provides nothing else but psi protection an that is very very situational.
It's the same reason I didn't like the auto powers in Inv before they buffed them only these cost end as well.
That isn't a problem with granite, that is a problem with the two (three if you count minerals) powers. Those armors don't complement each other, because typed defenses aren't needed unless you are facing that particular type of damage and that is literally all you get out of any of the armors in stone outside of granite.
That said... even then this isn't something that is unique to stone. DA has effectively the same problem only instead of having a hard limit that says that it can't run the powers at the same time, the end usage is so high that its counter productive to run them all.
In general I think it's a fair statement to make that a toggle that provides a specific typed defense and absolutely nothing else of value is a bad design.
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Plus they are available by lvl 20, technically the level you are finally "out of the gate and into the world." All required powers should be available by then.
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Disagree here. All *required* powers should be available around the time that they are *required*.
Either that or Stamina should be selectable at L1 
Alabaster I think we're agreeing on the issue, just not on the fix. Stone is out of whack. You see Granite as fine and the other powers as "broken" while I see the other powers as fine and Granite as "broken".
In either case, I think we agree that we'd like to see all of the powers in Stone work homogonistically (wow I just made that word up) rather than the current oil and water that we have now?
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Plus they are available by lvl 20, technically the level you are finally "out of the gate and into the world." All required powers should be available by then.
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Disagree here. All *required* powers should be available around the time that they are *required*.
Either that or Stamina should be selectable at L1
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OK, all native powers.
I don't mean to have full protection at that level either, just that primary sets should be designed to have a decent coverage to the most common types by that level.
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Alabaster I think we're agreeing on the issue, just not on the fix. Stone is out of whack. You see Granite as fine and the other powers as "broken" while I see the other powers as fine and Granite as "broken".
In either case, I think we agree that we'd like to see all of the powers in Stone work homogonistically (wow I just made that word up) rather than the current oil and water that we have now?
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In a perfect world where all resources and time can be put into all sets absolutely. I'd love to see the other toggles have some more utility than just adding a flat typed defense.
However given that resources are limited and other sets in the game need a lot more love than stone armor which is definitely playable (and even enjoyable as it was for me from 1-50, in that this was the funnest char I've leveled to 50) I think that it is "fine" as is. There are sets that have a lot more useless powers in them, but at the same time also have a lot less viability than stone and I think thats the only reason I disagree with fixing the limited problems in it.
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The fact that the OP himself has not posted numbers does not means that other posters that complain about the set have not seen these numerical issues or posted about them in the past. I know I have, and I'm feeling all my posts are being bypassed here during this argument about no one posting numbers...
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Perfect timing Starsman. I was going to mention, as well as thank you for the numbers that you have put up.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I can agree with that.
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The fact that the OP himself has not posted numbers does not means that other posters that complain about the set have not seen these numerical issues or posted about them in the past. I know I have, and I'm feeling all my posts are being bypassed here during this argument about no one posting numbers...
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Perfect timing Starsman. I was going to mention, as well as thank you for the numbers that you have put up.
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I have to be honest, I usually start nodding off when Stars breaks out the charts and graphs which isn't very fair to his mathematical prowess or super human attention to detail.
/salute
The only reason I bother with numbers is because I realized long ago it's the language the game and the devs speak. They don't care about Anegdoteze or Envinish or Nerftilian, all they speak is Mathematics.
If it was for me, I'd not bother. I was a math fluke at High School that did the bare minimum math to pass the class, I knew I had the potential (the college board assured me I did) but I am that math lazy.
The fun part is that these numbers tend to back-up personal experiences, and when they don't that's a huge hint I need to make sure these numbers are corrected (I always check my personal anecdotes before my numbers.)
Hmmm I dunno if I agree with that statement about the language of the game. Mathematically speaking the game is far too simplistic for most MMOs (flat line damage, non-scaling resists, funky dev-noted inconsistant threat meter without agro list, etc ...).
That and Stoners would still look like poo if that were the case 
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Generally speaking, you're only really toggling back Rock, and maybe Minerals, and those situations you're reliant on Minerals, you're prolly not getting into Granite in the first place (at least if you build properly). Most ppl bind Granite & Rock to toggle between the two. Still, that's a valid point, as is...
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You would also need to make sure Rooted is on, if you weren't running it already, for some status protection.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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The only reason I bother with numbers is because I realized long ago it's the language the game and the devs speak. They don't care about Anegdoteze or Envinish or Nerftilian, all they speak is Mathematics.
If it was for me, I'd not bother. I was a math fluke at High School that did the bare minimum math to pass the class, I knew I had the potential (the college board assured me I did) but I am that math lazy.
The fun part is that these numbers tend to back-up personal experiences, and when they don't that's a huge hint I need to make sure these numbers are corrected (I always check my personal anecdotes before my numbers.)
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For me I was the very bored math guy in High School. It used to come to me very easily. My have times changed.
Personally I don't know enough about the "numbers" in the game. I find them interesting and certainly want to get a better understanding before I go spouting them. Conversations like these help immensely.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Generally speaking, you're only really toggling back Rock, and maybe Minerals, and those situations you're reliant on Minerals, you're prolly not getting into Granite in the first place (at least if you build properly). Most ppl bind Granite & Rock to toggle between the two. Still, that's a valid point, as is...
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You would also need to make sure Rooted is on, if you weren't running it already, for some status protection.
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Rooted doesn't toggle off w/Granite. If you were treating Granite as an emergency power (akin to Hibernate, as I describe above), you wouldn't turn off Rooted in the first place.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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Generally speaking, you're only really toggling back Rock, and maybe Minerals, and those situations you're reliant on Minerals, you're prolly not getting into Granite in the first place (at least if you build properly). Most ppl bind Granite & Rock to toggle between the two. Still, that's a valid point, as is...
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You would also need to make sure Rooted is on, if you weren't running it already, for some status protection.
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Rooted doesn't toggle off w/Granite. If you were treating Granite as an emergency power (akin to Hibernate, as I describe above), you wouldn't turn off Rooted in the first place.
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I suspected I wasn't clear on my comment, sorry about that. It was more about going from Granite to Rock Armor if you didn't have Rooted on already.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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The reason I , and I would imagine others, do not quote numbers when we make suggestions is it usually just fans the flames. Not to mention that when it comes down to it any numbers I suggest wouldnt be used anyway. If we can convince the devs that something needs to be done then great. They won't use our numbers anyway so I won't waste my breath.
[/ QUOTE ]If you can't prove there's a problem, then you won't convince the devs they need to fix it. If you somehow think producing math and evidence incites flame wars, you must be using some really spectacular math.
Stars, while I greatly respect your analysis and reasoning, I still disagree with some of your conclusions re: Stone. The foremost reason is that I treat Granite as more or less a Hibernate-like power, to be toggled ON/OFF as needed, not an all-or-nothing beast. Therefore, I find looking at Stone in Granite vs. Fire or Stone out of Granite vs Fire (or any other set, really), somewhat misleading.
Let's take for example your Immortality line--I think we can agree that Granite has a far higher threshold for pain and still be "immortal" than all other sets for most occasions (there are a few obvious exceptions re: psi). Out of Granite, that threshold crashes downwards, which is the crux of many arguments on both sides. But if your playstyle was to be out of Granite until you were too hurt, then slip into Granite to recover, then back out, you could maintain immortality at far higher thresholds than normally, and in fact higher than most other tanks could sustain, at the cost of intermittently debuffed offense & mobility. The frequency of your debuffed state would vary greatly on the situation and your build, but on the whole, I find Stone balanced predicated upon this playstyle.
This is even better for for your Alpha measurement since you can always plan to take an Alpha in Granite, then simply toggle out of it once the return fire passes. All in all, I think you need to treat Stone as a whole with Granite, instead of as a binary case w/ or w/o. Of course, if it's your argument that Stone is woefully underpowered pre 32 compared to other sets, I agree. Then again, most tanks are under-armored pre 22 (SO levels) anyway, so really, we're talking about a 10 or so level discrepancy which I, at least, can live with. And these days, those 10 levels can go very fast.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee