I completely disagree though. Stone Armor is powerful, yes, and harder to tank with than other primaries up to level 32, but Granite is such a game changer that it feels like nothing else in this game in terms of sheer toughness, which is a very nice feeling the first time through. Granted it's been a very long time since I've tried to run a stoner without a massive number of IO's, but I leveled my stoner from 1 - 50 without farming (well, without much, it's possible that I leveled her from 46 - 47 on one farm and got bored, but whatever) and the majority of the time without IO's. I learned a LOT from 1 - 32 in terms of what enemies are dangerous and for what reason, so that wehn I hit 32 I knew more about the game than I would have otherwise. Is a stoner hard pre 32? Yes. Is it still tougher than a lot of of things in this game? Yes. If worst comes to worst you can always respec at 32 into a granite build - there's a handy respec trial right at that level.
Is granite powerful? Yes. Is it too powerful? I don' tthink so. And I don't really think that anything needs to be changed. WIth IOs you can change a lot. I just don't see why granite needs to be changed. Aesthetically, perhaps. But not numbers wise. and numbers wise poeple really haven't given a good reason other than "I don't like how powerful it is".
The problem with granite is people either see the benefits without seeing the downside or vice versa.
Also Vicar, after running a stoner for the better part of two years, I'm going to have to completely disagree about the runspeed thing. I run granite a lot without rooted, even with a kin on the team. Granite + rooted is really over kill on a lot of the content and it would be extremely frustrating for me to have to go at a snails pace even without the benefit of rooted. I liek that rooted has penalties. It makes the game and the powerset dynamic and makes you make choices at a lower level. The runspeed is annoying, but I don't think the answer is to shift the runspeed problems from the low level game to an insurmountable one in the high level one.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have a point about Unstoppable. Although Granite Armor doesn't make you quite as durable as Unstoppable in some ways, the differences are fairly minor at that point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I go the other direction here ... I think T9 powers should be the defining characteristic of the set, not a skippable "oh crap!" power. Unstoppable is probably the most ridiculous of the T9 powers in that it makes you a god for a few mins and then kills you if you're still fighting.
I'd much rather see Unstoppable changed to be more like Strength of Will from the WP line where it layers over your current toggles and has a very managable crash.
But I also enjoy using a hammer to drive in nails rather than hiring a mafia backed construction crew I owe money to, to do it for me.
I'm funny that way.
Agree about the run speed thing.
I run at about 25-30 mph with just granite which is respectable enough to not even need to worry about teleporting unless I want to. I frequently just run granite unless its against a really tough av, or I have double kin's (which oddly enough has happened a lot lately).
With granite and rooted I run at like -3%... I would definitely not support giving this same penalty to just granite.
I made the suggestion knowing there is no way they will completely remove it from the set. We might be able to convince them to move it but they will never remove it.
Its like the ridiculous -5% def Unyielding had. If they belived that was significant enough that they could not possibly get rid of it there is no way in hell we could convince them to completely abolish the slow in rooted. The best we could hope for would be for it to be moved.
Idealy I would like to see it removed from rooted entirely. My suggestion was a comprimise.
Also I respect that those of you who leveled the toons will know more about them than I do. I leveled a Stone tank to 26 or so a few years ago. I DESPISED having a mez protection that completely comprimised my movement. It was the ONLY reason I deleted the character. I didnt have any insurmountable surviveability issues. I just hated having to kill my movement or use break frees. With the ability to convert inspirations it might not be so bad now.
Now having said that I respect that you people leveled your stoners up I would like to add that I am not a complete novice to the lower level armors. I do run SF's and exemp down and I have played a low level tank in the past. So far in my experiance if I need granite I need rooted as well. I have run alot without granite though.
After all since I am playing a brute who does not get that till 38 that means almost every SF in the game I have to run without granite. I can still manage those so I do not think the lower armors need a buff however I also do not think that the speed penaltie is justified. Many of you say that you can overcome that with set bonuses. How many people under 20 do think are going to be able to afford those set bonuses just to make their character fun to play.
I cannot tell you how many people I have known who have played a stoner up, tank or brute, got rooted, played for about 2 more levels and then said "screw this".
The simple fact is there is only one problem with the set. That is the run speed debuff in rooted. It is completely over the top and is the "game breaker" for most people. The rest of the set is fine and in balance with others. Even the uber Granite is balanced. You take some very severe penalites for it and many times when I do not have a kin I would not run it. . . . except I have to run rooted anyway so I might as well have it on too.
I could spend a ton on run speed set bonuses to be marginally manuverable, or I could spend them where I have and have soft capped defenses. Might be able to do both if I was a tank but Im not so I had to choose. I can live with teleporting around, my favorite travel power anyway, but I certainly wouldnt say no to losing the speed in rooted. Granite would become the emergency armor that I think it was intended to be at that point.
Also as I pointed out I think a stoner might be viable in pvp if they got rid of the - speed of rooted and allowed super speed with it. Still disallowing it for granite. You would need to take, or have someone else with -fly powers but it would be feasible. As is now if I see a stoner in pvp I laugh and move on. You used to be able to use tp foe with a stoner but thats borked now.
*readies fire extinguisher*
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.
[/ QUOTE ]
You have a point about Unstoppable. Although Granite Armor doesn't make you quite as durable as Unstoppable in some ways, the differences are fairly minor at that point.
[/ QUOTE ]
I go the other direction here ... I think T9 powers should be the defining characteristic of the set, not a skippable "oh crap!" power. Unstoppable is probably the most ridiculous of the T9 powers in that it makes you a god for a few mins and then kills you if you're still fighting.
I'd much rather see Unstoppable changed to be more like Strength of Will from the WP line where it layers over your current toggles and has a very managable crash.
But I also enjoy using a hammer to drive in nails rather than hiring a mafia backed construction crew I owe money to, to do it for me.
I'm funny that way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ive given up on that particular battle. The Unstoppable crash is something else that is completely over the top. However the recent Invuln buffs have done enough to placate me. The rest of the set is fine now and I rarely have to pop unstoppable. When I do it's usually more for the recovery buff than the durability.
*readies fire extinguisher*
[ QUOTE ]
I made the suggestion knowing there is no way they will completely remove it from the set. We might be able to convince them to move it but they will never remove it.
Its like the ridiculous -5% def Unyielding had. If they belived that was significant enough that they could not possibly get rid of it there is no way in hell we could convince them to completely abolish the slow in rooted. The best we could hope for would be for it to be moved.
Idealy I would like to see it removed from rooted entirely. My suggestion was a comprimise.
Also I respect that those of you who leveled the toons will know more about them than I do. I leveled a Stone tank to 26 or so a few years ago. I DESPISED having a mez protection that completely comprimised my movement. It was the ONLY reason I deleted the character. I didnt have any insurmountable surviveability issues. I just hated having to kill my movement or use break frees. With the ability to convert inspirations it might not be so bad now.
Now having said that I respect that you people leveled your stoners up I would like to add that I am not a complete novice to the lower level armors. I do run SF's and exemp down and I have played a low level tank in the past. So far in my experiance if I need granite I need rooted as well. I have run alot without granite though.
After all since I am playing a brute who does not get that till 38 that means almost every SF in the game I have to run without granite. I can still manage those so I do not think the lower armors need a buff however I also do not think that the speed penaltie is justified. Many of you say that you can overcome that with set bonuses. How many people under 20 do think are going to be able to afford those set bonuses just to make their character fun to play.
I cannot tell you how many people I have known who have played a stoner up, tank or brute, got rooted, played for about 2 more levels and then said "screw this".
The simple fact is there is only one problem with the set. That is the run speed debuff in rooted. It is completely over the top and is the "game breaker" for most people. The rest of the set is fine and in balance with others. Even the uber Granite is balanced. You take some very severe penalites for it and many times when I do not have a kin I would not run it. . . . except I have to run rooted anyway so I might as well have it on too.
I could spend a ton on run speed set bonuses to be marginally manuverable, or I could spend them where I have and have soft capped defenses. Might be able to do both if I was a tank but Im not so I had to choose. I can live with teleporting around, my favorite travel power anyway, but I certainly wouldnt say no to losing the speed in rooted. Granite would become the emergency armor that I think it was intended to be at that point.
Also as I pointed out I think a stoner might be viable in pvp if they got rid of the - speed of rooted and allowed super speed with it. Still disallowing it for granite. You would need to take, or have someone else with -fly powers but it would be feasible. As is now if I see a stoner in pvp I laugh and move on. You used to be able to use tp foe with a stoner but thats borked now.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think a big part of your pain is that you are playing a stone brute instead of a tank.
I don't need to run rooted as a stone tanker to survive. You are pretty well on your way to have capped with both res and def to everything but psi with granite, stone skin and weave as a tanker. With just granite the run speed isn't horrible, and is even better if you 3 slot swift. With rooted and granite I agree both are pretty bad, but it is extremely rare to need both on a stone tanker, and if the situation is that bad it's usually an av or something which I don't need to be moving around all that much anyway. As I said I pretty much save rooted for the super baddies which there are only a few in the game that can get past caps to everything.
If I remember rooted has a much higher -run than granite does, which should probably be changed. While not needing to have it removed completely, lowering the base -run in rooted I think would be a reasonable step to make.
[ QUOTE ]
I see Inv (obviously), WP, SD and Fire tankers much more frequently on Justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Play on a different server. There are a whole bunch of Stone tanks out there.
The only change I would like to see is possible costume modifications. I think the set is fine as-is. (Thankfully we are all entitled to our own opinion.)
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Additionally Granite is the only T9 power in a Tanker primary that you *have* to take to make the set really work (as we've become accustomed to it working).
[/ QUOTE ]
I took Tough and Weave... and I am rarely in Granite unless on an ITF or STF.
[/ QUOTE ]
But for survivability sake it sounds like you took Tough and Weave so you didn't have to put up with the negative aspects of Granite, until you needed it for an ITF or STF.
[/ QUOTE ]
No. I still run Rooted, which is slower speed than granite. Rooted does not ahve the -recharge though. I have negated both with IO's. Mystone/fire runs faster in granite than a normal toon does with sprint and swift. It keeps up with SS in a mission (not pace, just is not left in the dust.)
I took tough and weave because I wanted the atypical stone tank, and it worked out very well.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
Rooted + granite has saved my teams hide more than once, such as when dealing with a GM.
Rooted:
*Remove -speed
*Keep -jump, -fly but allow combat jump and hover to be used, they just will grant defense.
Granite:
*Make it auto de-toggle after 120 seconds.
*Increase the recharge to 320 seconds (enhanceable down, due to how toggles work it will never perma)
Mud Pots:
*Reduce endurance cost to 1.04
There is more balancing I would do to alleviate the excessive fragmentation the set suffers now, but that I would have to sit down to actually toss ideas out on.
As for cosmetics: I would make the full armor set scale with body as weapons do. Huge characters and tiny characters look extremely different due to how the thing does not scales from body to body.
Now there's some minutia I can get behind.
[ QUOTE ]
There is more balancing I would do to alleviate the excessive fragmentation the set suffers now, but that I would have to sit down to actually toss ideas out on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. Yeah, that'd be a very effective way to make me actually go through and create one of my possible unkillable WP or Invuln builds, because I sure wouldn't play my Stone after something like this.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
[ QUOTE ]
Rooted:
*Remove -speed
*Keep -jump, -fly but allow combat jump and hover to be used, they just will grant defense.
Granite:
*Make it auto de-toggle after 120 seconds.
*Increase the recharge to 320 seconds (enhanceable down, due to how toggles work it will never perma)
Mud Pots:
*Reduce endurance cost to 1.04
There is more balancing I would do to alleviate the excessive fragmentation the set suffers now, but that I would have to sit down to actually toss ideas out on.
As for cosmetics: I would make the full armor set scale with body as weapons do. Huge characters and tiny characters look extremely different due to how the thing does not scales from body to body.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am absolutely against this. As it is, Stone armor is an armor set like no other, and I like that. There's WP and Shield both of whom have a very passive feel to them outside of the click T9. There's the others which have a great deal more activity, and then there's Stone.
First of all, I really like having the option of running in with Granite and not being on top of your offensive game, or running in without and cutting loose (well, as much as a stoner can cut loose...) As it is, it plays nothing like any other armor set. As suggested it's a lot more homogenous, and I wouldn't enjoy that. I can't talk for anyone else but I would imagine a lot of other people feel the same way.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is more balancing I would do to alleviate the excessive fragmentation the set suffers now, but that I would have to sit down to actually toss ideas out on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lol. Yeah, that'd be a very effective way to make me actually go through and create one of my possible unkillable WP or Invuln builds, because I sure wouldn't play my Stone after something like this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting. You would not play an improved stone set? Do you play one now?
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I really like having the option of running in with Granite and not being on top of your offensive game, or running in without and cutting loose (well, as much as a stoner can cut loose...) As it is, it plays nothing like any other armor set. As suggested it's a lot more homogenous, and I wouldn't enjoy that. I can't talk for anyone else but I would imagine a lot of other people feel the same way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I love when people use the "homogeneous" statement when anyone hints at any type of balancing. There is nothing in any set like I just described. Stone would still not play like any other set with these suggestions. If all you mean is "granite would be nerfed", well, that's another story all together.
Stone is one of those few sets out there (like Psychic Assault) that force players to go through hell to achieve an uber status thanks to one single power. That is plainly wrong. The set should not torture players until they get Granite, and granite should not make the rest of the set obsolete.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, I really like having the option of running in with Granite and not being on top of your offensive game, or running in without and cutting loose (well, as much as a stoner can cut loose...) As it is, it plays nothing like any other armor set. As suggested it's a lot more homogenous, and I wouldn't enjoy that. I can't talk for anyone else but I would imagine a lot of other people feel the same way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I love when people use the "homogeneous" statement when anyone hints at any type of balancing. There is nothing in any set like I just described. Stone would still not play like any other set with these suggestions. If all you mean is "granite would be nerfed", well, that's another story all together.
Stone is one of those few sets out there (like Psychic Assault) that force players to go through hell to achieve an uber status thanks to one single power. That is plainly wrong. The set should not torture players until they get Granite, and granite should not make the rest of the set obsolete.
[/ QUOTE ]
it would be a drastic difference in playstyle though, and one that would very much not enjoy. Actually I would be better with a numerical nerf of granite since I do feel that, having played one, it's over kill in all but one situation, and that one's on the STF.
That being said, I agree with you. But having a toggle tier 9, even if it's less than it is currently, (say at Brute numbers) with the rest of the set bumped up to compensate I wouldn't mind. But I like having a tier 9 that changes a playstyle. And I have to say, a stoner with tank numbers from 1 - 30 really didn't feel as bad as most people are saying, and that's when I was still an MMO noob.
So yes, while I might have been saying "yeah, it makes it more homogenous" you can put me in a box with all the other noobs and ignore me and that's fine. But you completely misunderstand my argument.
You're changing the MECHANICS of the power with your argument and I am against that particular brand of nerf. That's why I say having another tier 9 that has a time crash (granted without the end/health crash) would annoy me to the point where the mechanics of my character are changed. And I wouldn't like that.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
Well, there you go. Have at it folks. Pick it apart, dissect it. Tell me I'm out in left field or not. But in the end I want to ask you, how would you change Stone Armor if you could?
[/ QUOTE ]I'd make the model for granite actually scale properly. And then I'd leave it alone.
I find myself direly amused by people who make Stone Armor characters, get them to a high level range, then decide they don't want what they knew they were getting into.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, there you go. Have at it folks. Pick it apart, dissect it. Tell me I'm out in left field or not. But in the end I want to ask you, how would you change Stone Armor if you could?
[/ QUOTE ]I'd make the model for granite actually scale properly. And then I'd leave it alone.
I find myself direly amused by people who make Stone Armor characters, get them to a high level range, then decide they don't want what they knew they were getting into.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's because they see what other people are able to accomplish and they think it's actual Godmode without any drawbacks. Until they play it. It's fairly well balanced. If I were to do anything I would probably think about removing some of the defense debuff resistance, and maybe reducing some of it's res or def down a little. But I really wouldn't want to see it completely neutered. As I said before, I like the mechanics of it.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting. You would not play an improved stone set? Do you play one now?
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe if there was an improved set there. I saw a lot of nerfs based on the ideas of someone who doesn't regularly play the set. And a lot of buffs based on the ideas of someone who still doesn't play the set.
::
That said, there are good ideas in the thread:
1) Rooted only being -95% jump. I don't see it as necessary but I guess some people just can't figure it out.
2) Scaling Granite, not to say I haven't always wanted it...
I. Want. My. Smaller. Footprint.
Huge Bodies on Tank-type characters = Suck. There's a specific reason my Tanks are diminutive characters.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if there was an improved set there. I saw a lot of nerfs based on the ideas of someone who doesn't regularly play the set.
[/ QUOTE ]
One nerf only to granite.
Loads of buffs to everything else.
I have to say, unless something very interesting happened to the set below granite, and I don't mean simply a numerical shift so that the earlier armors are "more viable", I mean some really nice utilities, I probably would retire my main for quite a while. As it is now the stone set before granite is fairly straight forward. There's no bells or whistles like burn, invinicibility, AAO, RttC or EA for creating interesting situations, or self buffing. It's simply straight forward defense with a little bit of regen, and some resists in the F/C area. If all you did was make granite a toggle like the jump pack is, and bumped up the earlier parts of the set then the set would be....
Really really boring. Even if you bumped up the armors to soft cap status it would still be powerful but very very boring.
The only way I could see myself playing this set after a change like that is if Granite raisedyour defensive capabilities for 120 seconds or whatever you said, and the rest of your set increased offensive capability in some way, either and end management power, or a damage buff power, or something anything to make the set interesting.
If the set is going to have no utility like it does now it better have something like granite. But I doubt those were the concerns you were talking about.
What precisely would the buffs to the others parts of the set be? Because if it's not the toughest mother [censored] out there then you gotta give it something. Even invlun these days has some bells and whistles in the form of invincibility, Unstoppable, and the buffs tot he passives. What you propose is not only a nerf, but worse than that, it's a boring nerf.
It's also a nerf to playstyle and a slap in the face to everyone who put in the time to play a stoner up. And I'm just about betting that the buff to the earlier parts of the set don't include utilities, and don't include anything other than a numerical buff that makes it easier to softcap.
Am I right?
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if there was an improved set there. I saw a lot of nerfs based on the ideas of someone who doesn't regularly play the set.
[/ QUOTE ]
One nerf only to granite.
Loads of buffs to everything else.
[/ QUOTE ]
And [ QUOTE ]
And a lot of buffs based on the ideas of someone who still doesn't play the set.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your ideas tell me you don't play the set. I have all the armors. They're crap. And they're not just crap, they're hideous when paired up. Additionally, even if they were somehow buffed...then what would be the point of Granite? If I'm going to get such lackluster performance from a power like that, I again, will just return to Invuln or WP. If I'm forced to use them because of your misgivings about one power, then I'll simply shift to another primary that doesn't currently have a raging hate-on by you.
Since I know I will not agree to your ideas, I'm not going to bother responding after this, it'd just be wasted effort.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
I do play the set. As an Stone/Cold, talk about extremes! Unfortunatedly you won't ever read this and always think I'm just some noob hating granite's uberness (or you will read it, not sure how seriously you take such statements.)
I am very well aware of what the actual penalties of granite are and how easy IOs can entirely nullify them. I'm also aware of how weak the set is pre granite, it's not crap as you say, but it suffers heavy fragmentation (too many powers that individually protect you against too few things, not badly, but too few things still.)
Actually, the only armor set I have not played is Electric Armor. SR I have touched but not that far.
I have no hate-on anyone, I have hate on one of the worst designed sets in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
I find myself direly amused by people who make Stone Armor characters, get them to a high level range, then decide they don't want what they knew they were getting into.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this isn't about me getting my tank to a high level and deciding that I don't want what I've gotten myself into. This is in response to comments I've heard left and right in the boards. Like others I've gotten IO's to get around a bit of the -spd, -rchg in Granite etc. My question is centered around "is there a better way", and if so, what is it?
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
I see alot of people wanting the ability to jump. Allthough it would be nice I kind of like the fact that you are truly grounded. It gives the set a unique feel. I would rather they changed nothing at all then make it so you can jump. I would much prefer my above suggestion though.
To the people in this thread who have suggested dumbing down the buffs of granite and making it stack with the rest of the armors I say no thank you. I think the change I suggested would make people weigh the benefiets of running all the other armors against granite while still allowing those who like it as is to run it. Also the endurance cost would have to be massively overhauled if that was done. As is running all the other armors is rather taxing. Putting granite on top of it would be unplayable without Io's or buffs.
While I would support rock armor getting a slight buff I wouldnt to stone skin, since it stacks with granite. Minerals should not stack with granite. Granite needs some weakness or it would replace every other armor set out there.
Move the slow from rooted to (and on top of) Granite. While it might be considered a slight nerf to granite it would be a huge bonus to lower levels. It wouldnt overpower it and would make it viable at all levels.
Leveling up a toon should never be "a right of passage". A toon should be fun from 1 to 50.
*readies fire extinguisher*