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Rooted: Make the -Jump penalty -95% Jump so you can make small bounds (about the hieght of a normal step).
Granite: Add Speed/Rech resistance. Sorry stoners, one Kin should not be able to complete negate the down side of this awesome power. Sure a couple of Kins can speed you up, but not a single one.
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If some of the penalties were lessened from where they stand now I certainly would think adding in some resists for speed/rech might not be a bad way to balance things.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I would be hesitant to make granite layer over the other toggles without a major overhaul of the end costs for each.
granite/rooted/mudpots already uses quite enough without the additional drain of three or four more toggles layered on top.
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Managing the end cost of all those toggles would be the mitigating factor to using Granite (which makes more sense thematically as well).
I'd much rather have to manage all those toggles endurance wise then put up with the -recharge and -speed of the current Granite.
That might work. If memory serves one of the rednames said the attack sets were initially balanced around end use and tweaked from there(_Castle_ or BaBs I forget who now).
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
The devs' original idea of "balance" has to be taken with a grain of salt considering how badly they muffed that and how much the game has changed since (or rather, how much the powers have changed since release).
I'm not sure what the criteria is today, but going by the little changes I've seen here and there they seem to take a given power set (not sure which one) and measure to that both endurance and damage. SS got treated a little differently (because of the different mechanics it employs) so I'd assume the proto-set would be one of the secondaries with Build Up.
That'd be my guess at any rate.
Stone Armor (like SS for secondaries) breaks the mold because its the only set with a T9 power that you *have* to take. With every other set, no T9 power defines the set.
I thought we learned a long time ago that endurance is a pretty poor balancing mechanic. See, for example, Instant Healing.
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I'd make Rooted and Granite's movement debuff resistible (but I would not lower them) and I'd make it possible to jump with a much reduced max jump height.
Stone Skin could also offer resistance to most other damage types (not toxic or psi) ( 5% or 7.5%).
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Another thought would be to allow some jump height in Granite but cap it at 6'-8' or so. I find it very incongruous that I can leap up to deliver the Tremor attack from Stone Melee, but I can't get over a curb.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I'd make Granite the only penalized power, no movement debuff in Rooted (sure it makes conceptual sense, but so did Unyielding.)
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Or, at the very least, allow people the ability to jump, just enough to get over curbs.
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Ahhh, this exaggeration. It will never die.
That said, I like the set as is and don't want it changed.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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Additionally Granite is the only T9 power in a Tanker primary that you *have* to take to make the set really work (as we've become accustomed to it working).
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I took Tough and Weave... and I am rarely in Granite unless on an ITF or STF.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Granite: Add Speed/Rech resistance. Sorry stoners, one Kin should not be able to complete negate the down side of this awesome power. Sure a couple of Kins can speed you up, but not a single one.
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Bad idea is bad.
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I thought we learned a long time ago that endurance is a pretty poor balancing mechanic. See, for example, Instant Healing.
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And I thought we learned that balancing the plus side of the scale with making it god awful to play didn't work. See for example Unyielding, Rooted, Rage, Knockout Blow, Inferno, Super Nova, etc, etc, etc ....
Apparently we're still learning that lesson 
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Because it "works" doesn't mean it's "fine".
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Sometimes it does, however. Stone tanks work and are fine. No nerfs to granite, thanks.
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Obviously enough players have complained about the power drawbacks and aesthetics to make this an issue.
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That just means that the usual vocal minority would like to have granite without the penalties, and multiple granite forms to choose from. <shrug>
Multiple granite forms to choose from would be nice, but otherwise the powerset is fine. I still use the defensive toggles on my stone tank for soloing, so they're not made obsolete by granite. IO sets also partially compensate for the granite penalties.
The OP seems to want change for change's sake. /unsigned.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
I disagree.
Stoners are easily the most survivable of the Tankers and the second most identifiable thematically only to Invulnerability (i.e. The Thing).
Yet they don't rank as the highest played Tanker AT. Why not?
Could it be that because playing one is like watching grass germinate and as aesthetically pleasing as watching Ernest Borgnine getting a colonoscopy?
Nahhhhh couldn't be that. Must be that they're just a well kept secret by the mute majority.
P.S. - Stop being a nerf-o-phobe. You're supposed to be a Tanker ... act like one. Leave that other stuff to the hypocondriacs of the world.
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I disagree.
Stoners are easily the most survivable of the Tankers and the second most identifiable thematically only to Invulnerability (i.e. The Thing).
Yet they don't rank as the highest played Tanker AT. Why not?
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They don't? I see (pardon the expression) TONS of Stoners. Maybe it's second to Invulnerability, sure, but Inv is the classic Tanker thing. Are there stats somewhere on Tanker primary preferences?
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I would make Granite armor colorable at the tailor.
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
The only thing I would change would be to add some ability to customize the look of granite. Judicious use of IO sets can mitigate many of the problems. I also don't run my Stoner on Granite unless it's absolutely necessary.
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I disagree.
Stoners are easily the most survivable of the Tankers and the second most identifiable thematically only to Invulnerability (i.e. The Thing).
Yet they don't rank as the highest played Tanker AT. Why not?
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They don't? I see (pardon the expression) TONS of Stoners. Maybe it's second to Invulnerability, sure, but Inv is the classic Tanker thing. Are there stats somewhere on Tanker primary preferences?
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There once was but I forgot the link.site (if it even exists). However, while I see Stoners occasionally, I see Inv (obviously), WP, SD and Fire tankers much more frequently on Justice.
The only two Tanking sets that I see less frequently then Stoners is Ice and Dark.
Not exactly a scientific measurement .... just my personal observations.
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I disagree.
Stoners are easily the most survivable of the Tankers and the second most identifiable thematically only to Invulnerability (i.e. The Thing).
Yet they don't rank as the highest played Tanker AT. Why not?
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't? I see (pardon the expression) TONS of Stoners. Maybe it's second to Invulnerability, sure, but Inv is the classic Tanker thing. Are there stats somewhere on Tanker primary preferences?
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There once was but I forgot the link.site (if it even exists). However, while I see Stoners occasionally, I see Inv (obviously), WP, SD and Fire tankers much more frequently on Justice.
The only two Tanking sets that I see less frequently then Stoners is Ice and Dark.
Not exactly a scientific measurement .... just my personal observations.
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My experience is the exact opposite. Tons of stoners. I would say the only thing I see more of is inv and MAYBE SD just because it is the new kid on the block. It's pretty close though.
I never see fire, or dark... and wp and ice are about equal in between....
So my personal experience
Inv
SD
Stone
WP / Ice
Fire
Dark
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I thought we learned a long time ago that endurance is a pretty poor balancing mechanic. See, for example, Instant Healing.
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And I thought we learned that balancing the plus side of the scale with making it god awful to play didn't work. See for example Unyielding, Rooted, Rage, Knockout Blow, Inferno, Super Nova, etc, etc, etc ....
Apparently we're still learning that lesson
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Sure, understood. Doesn't negate my point. When you say:
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Managing the end cost of all those toggles would be the mitigating factor to using Granite (which makes more sense thematically as well).
I'd much rather have to manage all those toggles endurance wise then put up with the -recharge and -speed of the current Granite.
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Of course you'd much rather manage end. End is nearly trivial to manage nowadays (by the level you get granite). Maybe it would have worked Pre-I9 to make this change, but you're essentially asking for another /regen IH problem in the world of IOs with +end being a cheap opportunity cost fix for a high end-cost granite toggle (like regen could double up QR+Stam). In order to make a high end-cost toggle granite mean something to an expensive build it would be out of reach for use with SOs.
Of course, you could use my argument against me by documenting all of the possibly undesired things IOs now let us do. That doesn't excuse adding another circumstance to that list.
Also, as far as balancing upside with downside: Do you feel, by your same logic, that we should remove the crash from unstoppable completely? How about all "crashes" from all powers? FYI: I'm not accusing you of having a black or white opinion, I'm just wondering where the line in the sand is.
Well you also realize that I said we'd be lowering what Granite does to layer over the top of SA's existing toggles right?
In your example you site Instant Healing as an example of a badly designed concept of giving a great power and mitigating it with endurance cost but you would be incorrect. The reason it was changed was because it was decided *after* release that as a toggle it is too over powering (it's what essentially let Regen Scrappers be Tankers). They (the devs at the time) envisioned it as more of an "oh s__t!" power and changed it accordingly (to a clickable).
Additionally, you're talking about the end cost of a single power offsetting itself, while I'm talking about the endurance of a whole set of toggles (basically the endurance cost of Stone Armor as a whole) mitigating any super advantages it has.
Yes you can mitigate these via IOs. That's working as intended in my world (otherwise what's the point of IOs?).
This isn't really about change for change's sake, although I'm sure you could read it as such. This thread is more about finding out if the complaints/comments that have been made about the Stone Armor set are in any way valid or reasonable. And if not, what would be reasonable if anything?
I started the thread with the thought that if the comments I'd heard were valid, this would be how I would try to implement those ideas. As I mentioned in the original post, the only thing that I would really like to see is the Granite form scale to character size.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Additionally Granite is the only T9 power in a Tanker primary that you *have* to take to make the set really work (as we've become accustomed to it working).
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I took Tough and Weave... and I am rarely in Granite unless on an ITF or STF.
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But for survivability sake it sounds like you took Tough and Weave so you didn't have to put up with the negative aspects of Granite, until you needed it for an ITF or STF.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Granite should be comparable to a power like Unstoppable. Since Granite is a toggle that gives you the same survivability as an Inv tank, without the a 3 minute duration click power, having no 16 minutes cooldown and doesn't almost kill you when it runs out, there should be other penalties. I honestly think the current penalties are fine on Granite Armor.
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You have a point about Unstoppable. Although Granite Armor doesn't make you quite as durable as Unstoppable in some ways, the differences are fairly minor at that point.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Probably add more Defense were it counts on Rock Armor, seeing as people still use it after 32. Increase stone skins numbers just a bit and allow Minerals to be ran on Granite. Everything else can pretty much be "dealt" with.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
The only change (and one I have suggested but it was ignored) would be to take the slow effect out of rooted and tack it on to granite. Also allow super speed to be run while you have rooted on but not when you have granite on.
This would allow you to keep respectable movement (allbeit no vertical) running the other armors and still have your mez protection with rooted. Also pvp might be more of an option.
Then granite could be toggled on and you would become slower than it is now, on par with running granite combined with rooted. It isnt really much of a nerf to granite since typically if you need to run granite you will be running rooted as well. It would however be a huge quality of life change for leveling the set at low levels and at higher levels it would give you a reason to not always run granite.
Thats my two cents anyway. The only Stone Armor character I have is a brute. I will be honest with everyone in saying that I Pl'd the hell out of that toon because the constant looking for a kin or teleporting everytime i wanted to move more than 2 feet would have drove me nuts to level it and I wanted one for the RSF. (actually got my masters on him today)
If the change I suggest was made I would roll another stone armor in a heart beat and this time level it up as normal.
*readies fire extinguisher*
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I would be hesitant to make granite layer over the other toggles without a major overhaul of the end costs for each.
granite/rooted/mudpots already uses quite enough without the additional drain of three or four more toggles layered on top.
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Part of that is mudpots 0.78 end/s usage which is pretty steep. As I mentioned in my original post end costs would certainly have to adjusted to reflect such a change.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!