[ QUOTE ]
So much for a polite discourse on the stone armor set and the possible merits, or lacking thereof, to possible changes to it. I find it disappointing that you've chosen to basically call everyone who thinks changes to the set might be a good thing "idiots", especially considering this comment you made over in the Dom forums:
[/ QUOTE ]Not at all. I am saying that the repetition of something does not change its validity. If a thousand idiots said that the sky is green over and over, the sky would not change colour to accommodate them, no matter how loudly they said it.
If you see a lot of complaints about Stone Armour, it might just be that a significant portion of the people making the complaints are clueless.
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If you see a lot of complaints about Stone Armour, it might just be that a significant portion of the people making the complaints are clueless.
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The entire opposite may be true, too. This is an argument where only the devs know who is really on the right side.
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Of all things that would be the biggest one on my list. I run a teen female stone tank, she is very small and with very small proportions, every time I turn on the armor the thing is taller than her.
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If someone's biggest issue with stone armor is the cosmetics of it and not the actual numbers, and they're arguing for a numeric shift, I don't think they have very good ground to stand on for a numeric shift. Especially when they haven't really given too much support for said shift to begin with.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you see a lot of complaints about Stone Armour, it might just be that a significant portion of the people making the complaints are clueless.
[/ QUOTE ]
The entire opposite may be true, too. This is an argument where only the devs know who is really on the right side.
[/ QUOTE ]At least based on vox populi. On the other hand, there are many other useful grounds on which you can make arguments, which is why I advocate disregarding arguments from popularity.
Cosmetic Changes
I have always wanted to take a stone tank to 50, but the "big klunky" way it looks disgusts me. I am too vain to play it. Personally I would love to see stone tanks take on a more, chiseled marble, sort of look. Like they were carved out of stone, opposed to having pieces of stone stuck to them like rocky leaches. But that is just me, I assume some people like the way it looks. But if you had a texture overlay that made you look like a stone statue, it would be cool to be able to customize the texture. Change the 2 colors of it, what type of stone it is like a cool marble with streaks, shiny black onyx, or just regular ol grey rock.
I have a similar issue with Dark Armor. I feel like a giant fuzz ball of purple lint. Why can't it have a more stylish, sleek black look, semi-opaque like invisibility with a black "top overlay"
Be sure to drink your
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So much for a polite discourse on the stone armor set and the possible merits, or lacking thereof, to possible changes to it. I find it disappointing that you've chosen to basically call everyone who thinks changes to the set might be a good thing "idiots", especially considering this comment you made over in the Dom forums:
[/ QUOTE ]Not at all. I am saying that the repetition of something does not change its validity. If a thousand idiots said that the sky is green over and over, the sky would not change colour to accommodate them, no matter how loudly they said it.
If you see a lot of complaints about Stone Armour, it might just be that a significant portion of the people making the complaints are clueless.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm betting those that were in power back when there was slavery, or no women's rights probally said the same thing.
Boy I'm glad they lost.
*readies fire extinguisher*
Back on topic now.
I think the only way to please those not liking the looks of certain armors would be an option to suppress the effects.
However if changing the color of a power is difficult I do not imagine that changing it so that a particular armor does not show at all would be just as difficult.
If that was possible great. If not I would say that overhauling granite's looks would be unfair to those who like the current apperance. Yes they are out there. From those I have met there are about as many who like it as who hate it.
As for the other armors, I think they should be left alone for the same reason. Besides they show enough of your costume off that if you are creative you can work with them and come out with something unique.
So all in all I think cosmetic changes should take a back burner to the way the lower levels play. That is the primary concern in my opinion. Actually I think it is something they should look at more closely for all archtypes. You would always have people who power level but if there was more fun and interesting things to do at the low levels they would be less likely to pl through them.
Just look at the Posi TF for example. If it wasnt part of accolade I do not think many would bother. It is probally in need of an overhaul more than any other single aspect in this game because it is the first TF that lowbies (blue side) do. There is nothing that makes you go OOooo that was cool. Its just hour after hour of tedious missions just like the ones you were doing before you started the TF.
I have met so many new players to the game that when they hear TF they think of their first Posi and they instantly say no thinking that the others will be more of the same. Stone Armor is no different except Rooted is usually why they delete the characters. Not the looks, not that the lower levels might be a tad more squishy than other tanks. The slow is game breaking for most people. Especially new players who know nothing about the glory of speed boost.
For me, there is no way in hell that I will ever level a stone armor character in the conventional sense. Ive tried it, and I hated it. The character I pld though is a blast. Even exemped down to those painful levels he is fun but those instances are usually on SF's where we have a kin. Taking away the pain of rooted.
*readies fire extinguisher*
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
So much for a polite discourse on the stone armor set and the possible merits, or lacking thereof, to possible changes to it. I find it disappointing that you've chosen to basically call everyone who thinks changes to the set might be a good thing "idiots", especially considering this comment you made over in the Dom forums:
[/ QUOTE ]Not at all. I am saying that the repetition of something does not change its validity. If a thousand idiots said that the sky is green over and over, the sky would not change colour to accommodate them, no matter how loudly they said it.
If you see a lot of complaints about Stone Armour, it might just be that a significant portion of the people making the complaints are clueless.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm betting those that were in power back when there was slavery, or no women's rights probally said the same thing.
Boy I'm glad they lost.
[/ QUOTE ]Totally false comparison, and to provide contrast, there's a rebellious uprising in the American south right now that wants to reinstate slavery. There's a movement in the middle east that things the whole world should follow their one religion and there's a church movement in the United States that genuinely believes they can baptise the dead into their church and in effect force people to follow their faith.
The fact is, sometimes, an outspoken group of people can be right, sometimes they can be wrong. Merely being outspoken on a subject neither proves nor disproves the case. And when the people profess something utterly retarded - like, say, the sky being green - it does not make the sky green for them merely because civil rights started as a similar outspoken movement.
It's funny when you ignore those that say the sky CAN be green, then one day you wake up you see green sky AND a few minutes after get hit by hail or a tornado.
Just as the sky CAN be green, and it usually meaning bad things, Stone armor can suck horribly. Specifically outside of granite. At the same time, Granite's penalties can be almost entirely neglected by IOs. If you are cool with TP (and teletanking is actually quite cool, you can ask any shielded that does it by choice) you can focus all your IO resources to recharge and damage (some may loose some focus on speed)
Post deleted by Moderator 08
*readies fire extinguisher*
Oh and Talen I would like to add that the sky can and does turn green.
Maybe you should google "Northren Lights".
*readies fire extinguisher*
Technically the sky doesn't have a color.
And in other news, the world isn't flat either.
/popcorn
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Technically the sky doesn't have a color.
And in other news, the world isn't flat either.
/popcorn
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Hey I was going to say that one but then found that stuff about green skies and figured it would be more fun to note how it CAN turn green. 
The pedantry works out well, yes. The sky also tinges green when it's pregnant with hail. Not entirely sure why, but I've seen it twice in my lifetime. On the other hand, this demonstrates that when I use very simple analogy to explain something to people on this board, that speaking as if I'm speaking to children isn't quite simple enough.
I am pointing out the flaw in the argument that Lots of people have complained about Stone Armour on its most basic level. If ten people complained and had ten different complaints, their number offers no weight to their argument. If those ten people are bickering about issues of personal preference, then it's meaningless. If those people are trying to use the set to do things it's bad at then claim it underpowered, same thing.
Very simply, volume is no means to judge an argument. I will be repeating this post with hand puppets for those people who need it.
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And in other news, the world isn't flat either.
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This is only technically true in that the great turtle, A'Tuin's shell is slightly curved. However, rest assured, the disc carried on his back by the elephants is perfectly flat. So your argument is mostly moot.
What? Stone Armor? Fine as it is. Hey, if you want to give me small hopping abilities while in Rooted, far out, but I'm happy w/the set. Yes, custom Granite graphics would be hella sweet.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
[ QUOTE ]
The pedantry works out well, yes. The sky also tinges green when it's pregnant with hail. Not entirely sure why, but I've seen it twice in my lifetime. On the other hand, this demonstrates that when I use very simple analogy to explain something to people on this board, that speaking as if I'm speaking to children isn't quite simple enough.
I am pointing out the flaw in the argument that Lots of people have complained about Stone Armour on its most basic level. If ten people complained and had ten different complaints, their number offers no weight to their argument. If those ten people are bickering about issues of personal preference, then it's meaningless. If those people are trying to use the set to do things it's bad at then claim it underpowered, same thing.
Very simply, volume is no means to judge an argument. I will be repeating this post with hand puppets for those people who need it.
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The problem is many of those people simply do not have the patience to try and speak over you. Make no mistake your the one spouting white noise.
Make your point or suggestion. At that point, unless you have something different to say you do not need to say anything more. Any other posts saying the same thing are simply bumping your post count.
As I have said numerous times there needs to be an actual in game survey put out to each account holder (yes I know some have multiple accounts oh well). That is the only way that you will know if the masses really are complaining about it.
In my experiance in the game (you know when you actually log in Talen) I have met many that have had issues with the set. I have also met many people over the years that had great ideas but did not want to bother with the frustration of the forums. For myself that is why it took me so long to bother regestering and why in all this time I have a paltry 600+ posts.
Simply put, other games are making use of in game survey's. There is a reason for that. Just about everyone who plays an mmo is willing to click 5 check marks about some in game issue. Or even everytime they finish a mission that has been newly added to the game they click a few to give the devs an impression of how that new content is being percieved.
Now I am not suggesting that for everything in the game in perpetuity. However I do believe that when new content is put in the game that feature should be active for the first month or so. To get some feedback.
I also think it would be a great tool. For this issue the devs could put out a survey asking a few questions. Do you think stone armor needs an overhaul? If it did recieve one would you prefer it was in gameplay or cosmetics. So on and so forth.
Then once the first one is in they can decide if enough people want it to make putting work into it worth the time. If the majority of people say its fine its not needed then they post the results and a good chunk of people will stop bringing it up.
However if it is wanted by the majority of people they can send out further survey's with suggestions for the changes they might make and see what people think of those BEFORE they go to all the work of changing powers, animations or cosmetics. They save time and effort and have more people happy with the changes.
Obviously you cannot use this when something is out of balance (ie double stacked domination). Too many of the players will vote that it is fine out of self interest. However if done correctly this would be a far better way to find out what the players want than listening to the boards.
Listening to the boards only gets them input from their chosen few.
Thats not to say that the forums are a write off. Some good ideas do come from the boards, but I think more of them get buried in the flames than actually read by anyone that might have the influence to implement them.
*readies fire extinguisher*
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Technically the sky doesn't have a color.
And in other news, the world isn't flat either.
/popcorn
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Shame on you for throwing in logic! 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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Do I think they're necessary? No, not really, but I think it makes for a good discussion and may bring out better ideas from the community at large.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to again mention one of the first points I made when opening this topic thread. This is about having a conversation to see if an armor set that I do like very much, can be made better. Some believe it can be, others not so much. It's nice to read some of the different thoughts and ideas that folks have thrown out. Even to the level of detail that Starsman went to.
I appreciate the feedback, even if at times I feel like I need to clean off the bottom of my shoe. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Technically the sky doesn't have a color.
And in other news, the world isn't flat either.
/popcorn
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey I was going to say that one but then found that stuff about green skies and figured it would be more fun to note how it CAN turn green.
[/ QUOTE ]
I beat you to some minutia?!
/noose
(QR)
Here are issues I think exist with Stone:
Out of granite, the set performs at best at the same level as the baseline Fiery Armor build (no pools) only trading the Fire superiority for Psi superiority, Psi being less common type than Fire.
To do this, Stone requires 7 powers, 8 if you want the taunt aura. Each power uses a minimum of 3 slots, Earth Embrace uses 6. Thats 7 powers+24 slots.
Fiery Aura uses 4 powers to do so, and 3 slots them all for exception of Healing Flames, that it six slots. This is, mind you, if he wants to cover cold to it's max, if he neglects cold he uses 3 powers. I also can have the taunt aura.
So fire armor gets, tops, 4 powers and 15 slots to do the same mitigation as stone out of granite, plus it gets all those cool tools like endurance drain, Fiery Embrace, bonus damage aura and Burn.... OK ignore burn.
The point? Stone out of granite performance is sub par at best without any single bonuses and requires insane amount of effort to build without any true rewards. On the other hand, it suffers additional penalties that prevent it from running hover or combat jump for additional defense, plus a horrendous mobility penalty that includes the forced de-toggling of status protection to actually do any non-tp movement.
And then Granite.... Granite who's people complaints are not it's penalties but on the other hand how easy it is to get over most if not all the penalties without having to sacrifice survivability.
Whoever says that set has no issues in face of people noting them is the child trying to talk to adults, either that or he just has vested interests and is afraid of stone being reviewed as it would, as a minimum, mean measures set so that Granite's penalties can't be worked around.
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(QR)
Here are issues I think exist with Stone:
Out of granite, the set performs at best at the same level as the baseline Fiery Armor build (no pools) only trading the Fire superiority for Psi superiority, Psi being less common type than Fire.
To do this, Stone requires 7 powers, 8 if you want the taunt aura. Each power uses a minimum of 3 slots, Earth Embrace uses 6. Thats 7 powers+24 slots.
Fiery Aura uses 4 powers to do so, and 3 slots them all for exception of Healing Flames, that it six slots. This is, mind you, if he wants to cover cold to it's max, if he neglects cold he uses 3 powers. I also can have the taunt aura.
So fire armor gets, tops, 4 powers and 15 slots to do the same mitigation as stone out of granite, plus it gets all those cool tools like endurance drain, Fiery Embrace, bonus damage aura and Burn.... OK ignore burn.
The point? Stone out of granite performance is sub par at best without any single bonuses and requires insane amount of effort to build without any true rewards. On the other hand, it suffers additional penalties that prevent it from running hover or combat jump for additional defense, plus a horrendous mobility penalty that includes the forced de-toggling of status protection to actually do any non-tp movement.
And then Granite.... Granite who's people complaints are not it's penalties but on the other hand how easy it is to get over most if not all the penalties without having to sacrifice survivability.
Whoever says that set has no issues in face of people noting them is the child trying to talk to adults, either that or he just has vested interests and is afraid of stone being reviewed as it would, as a minimum, mean measures set so that Granite's penalties can't be worked around.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree with you that the set has issues. Pre-Granite it most definitely has issues, I just see those as being "fixed" post-granite. Maybe fixed isn't the right word... I think I'm looking more for... made up for post-granite.
I also don't think it's nearly as bad as a set like dark armor is at the moment. A set with an extreme overkill of endurance usage I think should be much higher on the pedestal than stone. At least stone has viability out of the gate. Some of the tanker sets have a lot less viability without having large IO investments.
Edit: By Pedestal I mean higher on the pecking order for changes.... not that it should be a tougher tank. 
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Do I think they're necessary? No, not really, but I think it makes for a good discussion and may bring out better ideas from the community at large.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to again mention one of the first points I made when opening this topic thread. This is about having a conversation to see if an armor set that I do like very much, can be made better. Some believe it can be, others not so much. It's nice to read some of the different thoughts and ideas that folks have thrown out. Even to the level of detail that Starsman went to.
I appreciate the feedback, even if at times I feel like I need to clean off the bottom of my shoe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Over the years there have been threads advocating "change" to stone armor, and thankfully they've been ignored by the devs. Hopefully yours will gain no traction as well.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
[ QUOTE ]
Over the years there have been threads advocating "change" to stone armor, and thankfully they've been ignored by the devs. Hopefully yours will gain no traction as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thankfully they listened to the "Poo Armor" threads.
It's not that I think that someone getting pissed off about a ruined character concept should be a reason NOT to change something, just that the change in the size, which for the most part i'm for, is essentially based around character concept sooooo...bleh.
Probably not possible until power customization but it owuld be nice if you could scale it and choose the color yourself.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA