[ QUOTE ]
You missed the memo? Yeah, it turns out that marketeering is evil and ruins the game for everyone else. If it wasn't for people like us with a basic grasp of economics, CoX would be a paradise of plenty. Shinies for everyone! Everyone's a winner! Here's your sticker! Yay, stickers!
[/ QUOTE ]
That made me laugh. And I still want my sticker. 
---
I've been told that sometimes my lucidity is frightening.
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Your logic is no match for concentrated stupid. - Organica
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Current MAs:
Stop the catgirl rampage! #66361
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah that's the other thing I was wondering about. How anyone could think that one group of players, especially a group as small as the ebil marketeers, could influence the devs one way or another. Most devs are proud of listening to user feedback and then doing whatever the [censored] they feel like. Just because the devs do something that we may agree with, doesn't mean we MADE them do anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of cousre the marketeers can't do that, that's the job of the Forum cartel, which doesn't exist and certainly if it did exist, they wouldn't be letting SwellGuy borrow the Van again.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh...that makes a lot of sense. I keep forgetting that the market wasn't in the game initially. Putting it in later will definitely influence (no pun intended) people's views of the whole thing.
I mean, every other MMO I've ever played has markets/AHs and I never see this level of derision for people who play the markets. But I guess it would make sense if this were the case.
[/ QUOTE ]
Also, a lot of people feel that a marketplace is inappropriate for the genre. They say that they don't want to play "City of Stockbrokers". It annoys them that playing in a way that they don't enjoy gives rewards, or that people who are playing "the wrong way" by being greedy and selfish in a superhero game are getting extra rewards.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Maybe its because you refer to yourselves as Ebil?
Not that I really care. I've been able to IO out 3 different characters thanks to the stuff I've read here.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah that's the other thing I was wondering about. How anyone could think that one group of players, especially a group as small as the ebil marketeers, could influence the devs one way or another. Most devs are proud of listening to user feedback and then doing whatever the [censored] they feel like. Just because the devs do something that we may agree with, doesn't mean we MADE them do anything.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of cousre the marketeers can't do that, that's the job of the Forum cartel, which doesn't exist and certainly if it did exist, they wouldn't be letting SwellGuy borrow the Van again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Roll a couple vehicles and get a bad reputation you can never shake... 
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
You missed the memo? Yeah, it turns out that marketeering is evil and ruins the game for everyone else. If it wasn't for people like us with a basic grasp of economics, CoX would be a paradise of plenty. Shinies for everyone! Everyone's a winner! Here's your sticker! Yay, stickers!
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the drop rate on everything in the game used to be infinite, so there was no competition and everybody could have everything, but then I bribed the NPCs with my ill-gotten funds to get them to stop dropping so much loot. I ebiled scarcity into existence.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed the memo? Yeah, it turns out that marketeering is evil and ruins the game for everyone else. If it wasn't for people like us with a basic grasp of economics, CoX would be a paradise of plenty. Shinies for everyone! Everyone's a winner! Here's your sticker! Yay, stickers!
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the drop rate on everything in the game used to be infinite, so there was no competition and everybody could have everything, but then I bribed the NPCs with my ill-gotten funds to get them to stop dropping so much loot. I ebiled scarcity into existence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now that's Ebil.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed the memo? Yeah, it turns out that marketeering is evil and ruins the game for everyone else. If it wasn't for people like us with a basic grasp of economics, CoX would be a paradise of plenty. Shinies for everyone! Everyone's a winner! Here's your sticker! Yay, stickers!
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the drop rate on everything in the game used to be infinite, so there was no competition and everybody could have everything, but then I bribed the NPCs with my ill-gotten funds to get them to stop dropping so much loot. I ebiled scarcity into existence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
I can't find a nice way to say the rest. I keep deleting the bitter comments. 4 times, tried and failed to be nice and positive when discussing the drop rate and the devs decision to make the best IOs the rarest.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You missed the memo? Yeah, it turns out that marketeering is evil and ruins the game for everyone else. If it wasn't for people like us with a basic grasp of economics, CoX would be a paradise of plenty. Shinies for everyone! Everyone's a winner! Here's your sticker! Yay, stickers!
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, the drop rate on everything in the game used to be infinite, so there was no competition and everybody could have everything, but then I bribed the NPCs with my ill-gotten funds to get them to stop dropping so much loot. I ebiled scarcity into existence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
I can't find a nice way to say the rest. I keep deleting the bitter comments. 4 times, tried and failed to be nice and positive when discussing the drop rate and the devs decision to make the best IOs the rarest.
[/ QUOTE ]
The market forum made the devs change the drop rates in i9??
[ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, we did.
Every person without a high level character had this exact problem.
Remember being broke at 12? 17? 22? 27? 32?
To think that the good ol' days featured no one suffering because of lacks of funds is silly.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, we did.
Every person without a high level character had this exact problem.
Remember being broke at 12? 17? 22? 27? 32?
To think that the good ol' days featured no one suffering because of lacks of funds is silly.
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember it quite clearly. The only period I felt my first toon EVAR, a SS/INV tank, was short-ish on cash was around 22 when I was upgrading from DO's to SO's. Before that, I took everyone's advice and sold things at the proper stores and upgraded/combined stuff to make it last. After my first 50 I never felt any of my twinked toons were short on cash. By the time I was in my 30's I felt like I could go out and earn anything I wanted to buy just by playing normally.
Just one players experience since launch.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, we did.
Every person without a high level character had this exact problem.
Remember being broke at 12? 17? 22? 27? 32?
To think that the good ol' days featured no one suffering because of lacks of funds is silly.
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember it quite clearly. The only period I felt my first toon EVAR, a SS/INV tank, was short-ish on cash was around 22 when I was upgrading from DO's to SO's. Before that, I took everyone's advice and sold things at the proper stores and upgraded/combined stuff to make it last. After my first 50 I never felt any of my twinked toons were short on cash. By the time I was in my 30's I felt like I could go out and earn anything I wanted to buy just by playing normally.
Just one players experience since launch.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you still can. Let me know when you end up so poor you can't afford SOs.
- Ping (@iltat, @Pinghole)
Don't take it personally if you think I was mean to you. I'm an ******* to everyone.
It's a penguin thing. Pingu FTW.
[ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
I can't find a nice way to say the rest. I keep deleting the bitter comments. 4 times, tried and failed to be nice and positive when discussing the drop rate and the devs decision to make the best IOs the rarest.
[/ QUOTE ]
So people would be happier if the best IOs were the most common? I suppose there is a subset of players for whom that would be true. There's also a subset of players that would prefer to be powerleveled to 50 instead of playing the game themselves. And another subset of gamers that won't even play MMOs because it's too much of a grind. Each MMO has to draw their own line somewhere between giving you an I win! button and forcing you to grind for thousands of hours to gain a single level. I like where CoH drew the line in I9+. Some people prefer where CoH drew the line before I9, before there was any leet lewt. These being simply preferences, nobody's really wrong; it's just a matter of what you want out of your MMO experience.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
[ QUOTE ]
So people would be happier if the best IOs were the most common? I suppose there is a subset of players for whom that would be true. There's also a subset of players that would prefer to be powerleveled to 50 instead of playing the game themselves. And another subset of gamers that won't even play MMOs because it's too much of a grind. Each MMO has to draw their own line somewhere between giving you an I win! button and forcing you to grind for thousands of hours to gain a single level. I like where CoH drew the line in I9+. Some people prefer where CoH drew the line before I9, before there was any leet lewt. These being simply preferences, nobody's really wrong; it's just a matter of what you want out of your MMO experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well put, thank you. Yes, I think that the "leet lewt" errs too much on scarcity, and specifically that the recipes in Pool C should not be nearly as rare as they are for how good they are.
I played Guildwars a lot during my time away from CoH. One thing that impressed me about the system there was that the best weapons, functionally, could be gotten very cheaply by anyone. The most expensive weapons and armor looked a lot nicer, but they provided the exact same benefits as the generic max-level weapons and armor.
Or the opposite end, WoW has equipment that is far better than anything else at its level. In order to get it, you have to spend months raiding. It simply outclasses any "lesser" piece or armor and provides some very significant advantages for the person who is willing to spend what adds up to hundreds of hours raiding for that specific gear.
CoH falls in between. Common IOs are good, Set IOs are often better. I personally disliked it when the only way to get Pool C and Pool D recipes was to run TF after TF after TF. Notice also, that making those recipes so hard to get led to what the devs would call "aberrant" behavior. It is my opinion that demand should be satisfied, players should be able to outfit their characters the way they want with minimum effort, and that being required to spend time playing the market in order to get the best gear is the very definition of "aberrant" gameplay.
I don't hate the market. I don't hate marketeers. But I don't think that playing the market should be the only way to IO out a character. I don't believe that playing the market should provide rewards over time so far in excess of what can be earned playing the game "normally." I would honestly encourage the devs to quarduple the drop rate on all uncommon and rare IOs, let the market adjust as it will, and let the people who want to play charaters outside the AH get an even chance to get the best IOs in the game.
Of course, i understand that this is only my opinion. The devs must have a reason for assuring that playing the market is far more rewarding than running any other content. The devs have drawn their line somewhere between "must play for months to get the best gear" and "anyone can have gear with the best bonuses." Someone will always find fault with where that line is drawn.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, we did.
Every person without a high level character had this exact problem.
Remember being broke at 12? 17? 22? 27? 32?
To think that the good ol' days featured no one suffering because of lacks of funds is silly.
[/ QUOTE ]
I remember it quite clearly. The only period I felt my first toon EVAR, a SS/INV tank, was short-ish on cash was around 22 when I was upgrading from DO's to SO's. Before that, I took everyone's advice and sold things at the proper stores and upgraded/combined stuff to make it last. After my first 50 I never felt any of my twinked toons were short on cash. By the time I was in my 30's I felt like I could go out and earn anything I wanted to buy just by playing normally.
Just one players experience since launch.
[/ QUOTE ]
I had the problem at 22-24 ("do I really want to buy this? It's about to go white...") and 27 on my first character. I think at 32 I just about broke even. My second character was built before my first character got out of the cash crunch. At 37 I was "rich".
A lot of it depended on how you were slotted. A low level INV tank had a lot of Damage Resist SO's, which only cost 60% as much as Acc and Damage SO's. Go ahead, look that one up- it's still true.
Some of it depended on how much dying you did, intentionally or otherwise, on your way to 22. And, yes, some of it came from whether you combined DO's that were already in your powers, and went half a mile out of your way (each way) to sell to the right stores.
My friends and I were moving to another server, and I built a streetwalker so we wouldn't start poor and miserable. (She was a forcefielder. She was 22, hanging out with blasters in their 40's and asking for tips. What would YOU call it?)
Villainside was even worse- due to the lack of "Saved pedestrians" and the late arrival of the 40+ game, among other things. My wife was around level 32 before she was fully SO'd out. (I was slow coming around to V-side.)
So, yeah, hate to answer your rhetorical questions, but "Yes. We were poor once, before issue 9."
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't hate the market. I don't hate marketeers. But I don't think that playing the market should be the only way to IO out a character. I don't believe that playing the market should provide rewards over time so far in excess of what can be earned playing the game "normally." I would honestly encourage the devs to quarduple the drop rate on all uncommon and rare IOs, let the market adjust as it will, and let the people who want to play charaters outside the AH get an even chance to get the best IOs in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Playing the market certainly isn't the only way to outfit a character. I purpled out my first character by just playing the game. It took hundreds of hours of grinding on a 50. I can't deny that the market is much more efficient from a time-spent standpoint.
And yeah, I'll kind of agree that that's not really the main thrust of the game. It does seem a little funny that playing the market is so much more efficient than more super-heroic sorts of activities like busting bad guys and fighting archvillains.
The devs seem to be heading in the opposite direction if anything, though. First there were ultra rare purples, and now we have certain PvP IOs going for prices the purples only dream of. The devs seem to be enamored of the idea of extreme scarcity for the absolute best equipment.
I suppose it's actually gone farther than I'd personally prefer. I'm a powergamer, and my interest is in the absolute best possible. But I want what I learn about top end builds and what can be done to be applicable to more than just a handful of people. If I'm the only one that can afford my build, what good is the knowledge I gain going to do anyone?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
[ QUOTE ]
So, yeah, hate to answer your rhetorical questions, but "Yes. We were poor once, before issue 9."
[/ QUOTE ]
I too, agree with this assessment and the earlier part of the post supporting it.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
[ QUOTE ]
Before I9, did you hear people complaining that things were too expensive? That they could not outfit their character in whatever way they wanted with no effort?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Like my original defender who couldn't afford a full set of SOs until the 30s and had to get loans for costume changes. And the way I hated Hamidon raids, but knew that my characters would do much better in PvP with HOs. I probably wasted days worth of time on that Jello mold.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Interesting post Fulmens. It's been a long time since I took my blaster to 50. I remember when I quit, just a bit after the ED mess, I gave away 40 million INF to MMO radio so they could host events on Infinity. Then I turned around and handed 80 million to my SG leader to help anyone who needed it. Playing my blaster through normal play, I had nothingbetter to do with INF than give it away.
Since you can honestly say (although you made qualifications) that you were "poor" once, did you ever feel that no matter how long you played, you would never be able to afford to outfit your character? That things were just too expensive and would be forever out of reach?
I'm not saying that IO's ARE out of reach, but many people PERCEIVE them to be. Which is why there are so many "stuff is too expensive" posts: normal gameplay is no longer rewarding enough to be able to afford the best enhancements in what people consider a reasonable amount of time. Remember, as you know, patience is everything. What people are saying when they say "stuff is too expensive" is "it takes too much time to earn these rewards."
That isn't a problem with the market, which is limited by other mechanics, both in-game and out. That is a reward rate problem, entirely int he hands of the developers. The market will respond to any change in reward rates by adjusting, but the developers have to set the reward rates. Currently, I believe that the reward rates on the most in-demand recipes are set far too low. Unless the developers adjust the rate to something that people are happy with (an impossible proposition) you will continue to see complaints about things being too expensive. Of course, if reward rates are upped so that everyone can have what they want... See "Costume recipes" for what happens when the devs decide to be nice to everyone instead of the select few market gurus.
Drop rates determine scarcity. Scarcity fuels the market, enabling low-risk, low-time invented, high-profit gameplay. In my opinion, logging a character in for a few minutes a day, flipping slots, and profiting immensely, should be acknowledged by the devs as "aberrant gameplay" and steps should be taken to ensure that it isn't orders of magnitude more rewarding than playing the game "normally."
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, logging a character in for a few minutes a day, flipping slots, and profiting immensely, should be acknowledged by the devs as "aberrant gameplay" and steps should be taken to ensure that it isn't orders of magnitude more rewarding than playing the game "normally."
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm new here and I started a thread last week asking why it was so easy to buy a recipe, craft it, and profit enormously. The general consensus was that it's a choice the players make. Players are willing to pay for not "wasting their time" buying and crafting stuff. So I do it for them and make a ton of money. I don't understand how that's aberrant.
Could you please expand on your statement, because I've been trying to understand this opinion (you and many others like you seem to hold it) and I just can't. Like I said, I'm new here. I'm not trying to flame or troll or trap you, I'm just trying to understand.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that IO's ARE out of reach, but many people PERCEIVE them to be. Which is why there are so many "stuff is too expensive" posts: normal gameplay is no longer rewarding enough to be able to afford the best enhancements in what people consider a reasonable amount of time.
[/ QUOTE ]
My 'casual gamer' concept stalker is sitting on 32 million inf at level 30, having done NOTHING other than play 'real' content, ghosting anything he could, selling his drops and crafting recipe drops that didn't require him to buy more than 1 bit of salvage (i/e, he got most of the ingredients as drops).
How much inf do these people think they need, anyway?
What I've noticed is that since I9 a lot of people whine and snivel about how "everything" is too expensive. But when you engage them and tell them in so many words how to, literally, make as much inf as they want, they don't want to hear it.
"I'm a superhero, not a stockbroker!" etc etc etc.
These types, and in my experience most inf whiners are that way, are completely unsatisfiable. They want to be able to buy LotGs at the store for pocket change, or they want guaranteed Miracle +Regens for running a TF.
The only folk who are poor these days are poor by choice.
The only people who don't have as much of "the good stuff" as their heart desires are lazy, or contrary, or both.
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, logging a character in for a few minutes a day, flipping slots, and profiting immensely, should be acknowledged by the devs as "aberrant gameplay" and steps should be taken to ensure that it isn't orders of magnitude more rewarding than playing the game "normally."
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a ridiculous statement.
Efficient inf earning is no different from efficient XP earning- would you also decree leveling efficiently to be "aberrant" behavior?
The devs have already given the crybabies and entitlement cases merits and tickets. Anyone who still can't get 'the good stuff' has larger problems than the devs or the market forum regs are equipped to solve.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
That isn't a problem with the market, which is limited by other mechanics, both in-game and out. That is a reward rate problem, entirely in the hands of the developers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! So few people understand that.
I remember being terribly poor until the mid-30's. After that, the money rolled in faster than I could spend it. It always seemed to me that the devs didn't do the math before setting the prices of high level SO's and the influence drop rate and the amount of xp needed to level.
One thing I have always loved about this game is that nothing decays as a function of time, especially time logged out. In SWG, it was easy to reach a point where you needed to log in a minimum of X hours/week just to maintain your stuff. You couldn't make any progress unless you played X+1 hours/week. And since your maintenance costs went up as you made progress... It was the worst possible system for a casual player.
In CoH, you can just make more and more and more inf. Sooner or later you're bound to hit the inf cap. I love that. As long as there isn't any ongoing inflation, you can buy anything eventually.
"Eventually" is the key word, of course. You're right that many people don't want to wait that long, however long that turns out to be. And there's nothing wrong with that. Loot speed is a lot like leveling speed. I think we can all agree that if it takes more than 150 years to reach level 2, that's too slow. On the other hand, most people would agree that hitting level 50 in under 30 seconds is probably not best for the long term survival of the game. It's a question of balance, keeping in mind that every single person will have a different opinion about where the sweet spot is.
I think the main reason why the market can be so profitable is because so few people do it. The lack of competition is what makes the profits so large. I'm not sure how the devs could address that, even if they wanted to.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Lakanna asked:
[ QUOTE ]
Since you can honestly say (although you made qualifications) that you were "poor" once, did you ever feel that no matter how long you played, you would never be able to afford to outfit your character? That things were just too expensive and would be forever out of reach?
[/ QUOTE ]
I never owned a single Hami-O until I bought one in issue, I think, 11. On the market.
I heard about the raids, frame rates in the seconds/frame range and three hours of misery, and just gave up without trying one.
So there was high end stuff I was never going to have. Explain the difference.
(P.S. The equivalent of "two hami-os per power" can be gotten just through frankenslotting, and you can do that at level 32 for the price of, I dunno, four SO's per power. )
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
Drop rates determine scarcity. Scarcity fuels the market, enabling low-risk, low-time invented, high-profit gameplay. In my opinion, logging a character in for a few minutes a day, flipping slots, and profiting immensely, should be acknowledged by the devs as "aberrant gameplay" and steps should be taken to ensure that it isn't orders of magnitude more rewarding than playing the game "normally."
[/ QUOTE ]
"Rewarding" in what sense? You can't level to 50 (or to anything) playing at the market a few minutes a day.
What you want them to ensure isn't possible will always be possible as long as there is scarcity. If things are less scarce, the absolute value of that play will go down, but the relative value will remain largely the same, because goods will be less scarce for everyone. (A flipper won't make as much money flipping more common goods, but won't need as much money to buy more common goods.)
The only way to prevent such play from having high relative value is to prevent reselling completely, which seems a highly draconian approach for little actual benefit to the players as a whole.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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What did you guys do to them before I got here? lol
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When they Devs dropped base salvage and replaced it with invention salvage, for some reason the base builders were very upset, and blamed the ebil marketeers for making it happen. I'm not quite sure why they decieded it was our fault and not the Devs, but I'm assuming that the negitivity you see over there is a residual of that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah that's the other thing I was wondering about. How anyone could think that one group of players, especially a group as small as the ebil marketeers, could influence the devs one way or another. Most devs are proud of listening to user feedback and then doing whatever the [censored] they feel like. Just because the devs do something that we may agree with, doesn't mean we MADE them do anything.