While my response may be less than eloquent, I'm personally getting sick and tired of market people trying to tell me that it solves all game ills. At that point the very first thought that comes to mind is "snake oil salesman".
Worse, in my opinion, many proponents of the market system actively block some fixes to other aspects of the game that would greatly improve player's enjoyment of the game. There are also adverse design decisions that are pretty much dictated by market considerations. The mentioned base salvage removal and being forced to compete with other uses of invention salvage being one of the most notable. Throw in the 2,500 to 30 nerf on the base salvage containers and you pretty much can kiss any remaining sympathy goodbye.
It all adds up to people trying to get others to market-PVP, even though the market was billed as an optional system.
As a note, a fully functional base costs around 3.5 million prestige to build with the post-Issue 13 prices. This means that a fully functional hero base would cost around 1.75 billion Inf to build.
Edit:
I would like to point out that this reply was trying to explain to The_Demon_Hunter about my initial response. It was NOT meant as an attack against Fulmens. I apologize to Fulmens for not thinking how this response would come across. It was not meant as an attack.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
[ QUOTE ]
As a note, a fully functional base costs around 3.5 million prestige to build with the post-Issue 13 prices. This means that a fully functional hero base would cost around 1.75 billion Inf to build.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch. That's enough to fully slot out my new scrapper and still have enough left over to get a good start on a second build or another toon, lol. I hadn't put any thought into the overall cost for a base (I just build as I can afford what I want), but I wouldn't want to be converting THAT much Influence when it could be put to much better use elsewhere. More points in favor of not converting as far as I'm concerned 
At the price of the IO's now days i'll prolly just go back to SO's and build a very nice lookig base.
I'm not a big fan of the market either. I'm going to start messing with it some but it's gonna cut into my play time and my alt time. Grr. lol.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a note, a fully functional base costs around 3.5 million prestige to build with the post-Issue 13 prices. This means that a fully functional hero base would cost around 1.75 billion Inf to build.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ouch. That's enough to fully slot out my new scrapper and still have enough left over to get a good start on a second build or another toon, lol. I hadn't put any thought into the overall cost for a base (I just build as I can afford what I want), but I wouldn't want to be converting THAT much Influence when it could be put to much better use elsewhere. More points in favor of not converting as far as I'm concerned
[/ QUOTE ]
What was worse was that before Issue 13, that bare bones functional base was 6.6 million prestige to build.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
tl;dr version - The conversion rate appears to assume players play on teams of 5 or more (as it was put in long before the markets). Prestige earning gets progressively worse as team size increases. Solo play is pretty much the quickest way to earn prestige (or grouping with people from your SG, assuming the sum is greater than or equal to the parts). Inf earning improves moderately (sometimes significantly) as team size increases. Market trading/flipping earnings are not affected by team size and only require minimal time spent logged into the game.
Unless someone solos mostly or teams with their SG (and everyone gives 100% effort), and runs missions for an hour or more per day, market trading/flipping and converting will probably be the quickest way to gain prestige.
end tl;dr version
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I know it's 500 to 1, which was considered outrageous and ridiculous back in the days of old, when 20 million was wealth beyond the dreams of avarice.
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The main problem is that Prestige receives none of the teaming bonuses that XP and Inf receive. Running on a full team of 8, you get 1/8-1/10 (due to rounding) the prestige you would solo. Even counting the increased number of enemies and faster defeating, you are still receiving only 1/2-1/4 the Prestige you would solo, for the same amount of time. This makes the conversion not seem as bad, since you are earning at least twice (for an 8 person team) and probably 3-5 times as much Inf as you would solo, in the same amount of time. Even on a team strictly from your own SG, the overall earning rate will probably be a bit less than if everyone soloed, since there is generally inefficiencies and overlap (2 people firing on the same almost defeated critter).
Solo, at level 50, you generally earn 100-150 times as much Inf as Prestige (50-75 times, compared to out of SG mode earnings). On a team of 8, that would go to 500-2000 times as much Inf as Prestige (250-1000, compared to non-SG mode), making the conversion seem more reasonable.
This does not factor in selling drops on the market, nor RV farming with Heavies.
For myself, to date, I have made 1.1 million prestige on a Brute, and about 400 million inf, in the same time period, running MA missions (generally with 3, and sometimes with 5, on the team) and TF's. However, I also keep up on the market and random roll in the most lucrative ranges, deleting anything that does not sell for more than 5 million (recipe or crafted). So, 100-200 million might be more realistic for the average base builder, making the conversion hideous.
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... is 200K prestige a lot these days? You can make 100 million inf pretty easily on the market, these days, and that converts to 200K prestige.
[/ QUOTE ]
I created the Brute (mentioned above) about one week after MA went live. MA is crazy stuff though. I think my highest character (played for about 2 years), has around 4 million prestige, and nearly half of that is from WttV exploiting over that one 2XP weekend.
If someone has fairly low playing hours (I play 2-3 hours a day, more on the weekends), plays mostly in large non-SG teams, etc, then market trading/flipping might be the best, since they do not have to be logged in for it to work. However, if they have an hour or more per day to run missions and such, then they probably will be better served using Inf (even from market trading/flipping) to outfit their character to speed up defeating stuff.
<qr>
To whom it may concern at this point,
I think the Market is completely out of control, and that is because of the Marketeers that control it.
The Devs cator to them, like this is a new form of PVP, as referenced several times above.
I use the Market to IO my toons because there is no other way to accomplish that task.
I have said, and will always say that the prices are extremely excessive, giving the rate people can earn Inf, and drops in the game.
This whole thread appears to me an attempt to get all us Base Builders to join them, and help drive prices even higher.
I did pretty good building my Base/SG with me and three folks I know. I'm on the second to the largest Secured Plot.
As I said up-thread I only Convert if I need a little more Prestige to finish a project, and convert only what I need.
My SG is where it is because of dedicated players. Not the Market, or the Conversion Factor.
I don't want to become a Marketeer.
No thanks.
Black-Strike: lvl 50 AR/Dark Corruptor
Brutally Beautiful: lvl 50 BA/Inv Brute
Seared Earth: lvl 50 EC/EA Dominator
Yashi Onuku: lvl 50 Ninja Blade/Ninjitsu Stalker
Death-Widow: lvl 50 Night Widow
[ QUOTE ]
I think the Market is completely out of control, and that is because of the Marketeers that control it.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is at least partly true. The other thing you haven't factored in is the AE. While expensive in some cases, the market was fairly balanced for the most part with most things going for almost set prices (or price ranges). With the addition of the AE though, many things have become almost as rare as water in Death Valley. It's starting to come back slowly, but only time will tell what the final effect on the market the AE will have.
[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread appears to me an attempt to get all us Base Builders to join them, and help drive prices even higher.
[/ QUOTE ]
This I can't quite agree with. It seems to me to be more a list of opinions and some discussion on the actual topic. If anything, comments like that are what is making you think this way about the thread (IMO).
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My SG is where it is because of dedicated players. Not the Market, or the Conversion Factor.
[/ QUOTE ]
Same with both my SG and my VG. My VG was built from the ground up over the last year, with my Brute being the primary Prestige earner (4.2 million and counting). My SG was inherited from a friend who quit the game, but even there everything was payed for the old fashioned way; good old hard work. My marketeering is for the benefit of my toons, especially my 50's, to get them fully IO'd, not for Prestige conversion.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to become a Marketeer.
No thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
No one is forcing you to become a marketeer. That choice lies solely with you.
Just my two bits...
First to respond to the OP, no I have never used the influence to prestege conversion. It's not even close to reasonable.
As for the rest of this post sorry for the length and if you want the tl;dr version scroll down to the last line.
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<qr>
To whom it may concern at this point,
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that it's time to weigh in here as this is going completely down hill and a quite innocent question that sought only knowledge is being trashed and vilified by some of you. The OP, who is actually one of the Market Forums more altruisitc members, is being treated by some as little better than a terrorist.
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I think the Market is completely out of control, and that is because of the Marketeers that control it.
[/ QUOTE ]
My wife and I are the proud owners of a 15 million+ prestege base on Justice Blue side that houses only our alts. We started it back when the costs of plots, rooms and equipment were much more expensive and you had to decide between earning prestege OR influence.
It was extremely hard for us to get a functional base going AND enhance our alts. We literally had to choose between group earning or individual earning and not just for our personal base but for the large Public SG base that we also belonged to.
When the market was introduced we saw it as a huge boon. We could now stay in SG mode 100% of the time and sell our drops to allow us enough influence to slot out our toons at the same time. That's when I became a regular in the market forum.
I could have blamed all of the base building difficulty we faced on the PvPer's, the PvP base designers, or the Base builders here and loudly proclaimed that it was all their fault, that it was so time consuming and grindy for me to get a functional base let alone an asthetically pleasing one, but that would have been as completely inaccurate as the above is.
If you must lay blame, put it where it belongs, in the hands of the people who actually have control of the code, the devs.
I could have claimed that magic desks and magic doorways were "exploits" and the base builders that used them should be banned and get all bent out of shape that they actually wrote GUIDES to teach other people how to use the "exploits" but I didn't.
I took it at face value that some folks had learned an easier way to do something and wanted to share with the other folks in game, to help them, and save them the trouble of learning the hard way.
Most of the folks in the market forum are just doing the same things that you all are. Congratulations you on your successes, sympathizing with your failures, and teaching the open minded how to do something better or easier with out having to learn the hard way.
[ QUOTE ]
The Devs cator to them, like this is a new form of PVP, as referenced several times above.
[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is so bereft of facts that it is painful.
The devs do not cater to the marketeers. The devs have NEVER made a single post in the Market Forums since it's inception. We have been asking for several things that are quality of life issues and would help both new and old players get more out of the market with less effort.
The only post that a red name has made in the Market Forums EVER that had something to do with the market was Ex Libris. She made one post and she was posting on Positron's behalf. (Tell me why, if the devs cater to the market, that Posi couldn't be bothered to come in to even type his own post.)
Long and short of it all, the official post we got from "Posi" via Ex was that we weren't getting any of the things that we were asking for. She continued on her own behalf to let the folks in the market forums know that on her personal account she used the market in the EXACT way that the market haters hate.
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I use the Market to IO my toons because there is no other way to accomplish that task.
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There are lots of other ways to IO out your toons. Run taskforces and story arcs your self for merits and recipies. Use the Mission Architect in the same way to earn tickets and get recipe rolls. Trade amongst the members of your super group.
What you are really saying is the market is the Easiest and Fastest way to do that but you hate the idea of wasting your time learning how to do that either efficiently, inexpensively, or patiently and the devs should have created a store for your convenience. There are several market folks that have written guides so that you don't have to go to the trouble of learning the fastest or most efficient way to "Purple out your warshade as a casual player" but your response isn't thanks for the help it's "you guys suck, you are the reason that every thing costs so much." It's much the same as you blaming the doctor for being unable to cure a terminal illness.
[ QUOTE ]
I have said, and will always say that the prices are extremely excessive, giving the rate people can earn Inf, and drops in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Market folks like numbers, human psychology, and like to be able to verify facts. We wondered at the inception of the market why prices were what they were. Some of the market folks decided to gather some data and see.
What was discovered was that even a non-damage dealing Arch type can make roughly a million influence an hour soloing at level 50. I participated in that research with an SO'd Forcefield/Psi/Psi defender (not an AT and combo known for massive damage)and I was able to come in consistantly at 750,000 - 1,000,000 inf an hour.
It's not hard at all for a damage dealing Arch type like a blaster or a scrapper to pull in 2 - 3 million in an hour . Most farming builds can pull in 5 - 7 million an hour and one power gaming Fire/kin player was able to pull in an excess of 20 million per hour.
So with a little quick, dirty, and not perfectly accurate math: The ITF is the merit standard for recipe rolls equalling 1 roll in an hour. If anyone can earn a million in an hour at level 50 then any particular recipe should be worth 1,000,000 at level 50. Except you don't want what ever that recipe is. Your scrapper isn't going to get much use from that Sting of the Manticore recipe. If there are 74 recipes in the drop pool and only one of those is an LotG +7.5 you won't get one every time you run a task force. If you have to run a task force 20 times to get that LotG then it should be worth 20 million right? Except there are 74 recipes in the pool not 20. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to actually figure out why those things cost so darn much.
Building on that its not hard to figure out why luck charms are 50-70,000 a piece. Someone with a level 50 has a level 7 alt they want to twink with level 10 accuracy IOs. They get out the 50, go sneeze on a dozen minions, walk to the market and plop down 50k each for the luck charms with out so much as batting an eye. It's not the marketeers. Real marketeers don't bother with margins that are so low. Transaction slots are finite. Luck charms are not something that gives a good return for the opportunity cost.
Once a level 50 is fully enhanced with what ever the owner wants then, any time that 50 plays he creates influence that never has to leave the game. He doen't need to spend it unless he wants to. It's similar to having a printing press in your basement and being able to crank out as many dollar bills as you care to take the time to produce. Having more influence available to spend means that people don't mind spending more and this is how inflation (and price increases) occur.
[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread appears to me an attempt to get all us Base Builders to join them, and help drive prices even higher.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it was an attempt for understanding, reaching across the isle, and getting base builders to join but not to raise prices. To lower them. An influence sink is a way that games like this remove most of the excess influence that is being produced like I demonstrated above. This game has a total of 5 influence sinks. Costume changes, difficulty setting changes, market fees, converting influence to prestege, and buying enhancements whether it be SOs or spending the crafting costs to create IOs (that don't degrade and never need to be replaced, compounding the possible problem of inflation.)
Some of us wanted to know if the influence to prestege conversion was being used enough to be effective at removing some of the excess influence. Why is that you ask? Because high prices harm low level and new players more than any other. It becomes a barrier to entry. How many times have you seen a player post, "50,000 for a luck charm? By the time I've got 50,000 I'll be high enough level that I won't need the luck charm!" Players that face this situation may decide to spend their real life gaming money on another MMO instead because something like this happened as one of their first impressions of the game. This harms all of us that enjoy this game. More players mean more real life cash for game development, it means more and larger teams, more team mates, more SG members able to earn enough prestege to explore the fun that can be had by base building and the joy of constructing a larger, more elaborate and more beautiful base.
We were hoping we could join with the base builders (since you folks actually DID get some attention from the devs in I13, a trick we certainly haven't been able to pull off)in requesting that the devs actually LOOK at making the influence to prestege conversion WORTH using to take some of the excess influence out of the system and help reduce prices for the brand new player AND make it easier on the brand new base builder to get a fuctional and even elegant base a little faster and a little easier than we all were able to do for ourselves, but I guess that was too much to hope for.
I may be a marketeer first but I am assuredly a base builder second as my wife has made it my responsibility (mainly be refusing to do any of it herself 
)to keep our base on red side as well as blue, both functional and beautiful. This issue affects all of us both base builder and marketeer.
[ QUOTE ]
I did pretty good building my Base/SG with me and three folks I know. I'm on the second to the largest Secured Plot.
As I said up-thread I only Convert if I need a little more Prestige to finish a project, and convert only what I need.
My SG is where it is because of dedicated players. Not the Market, or the Conversion Factor.
I don't want to become a Marketeer.
No thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for keeping an open mind.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
that nailed it! well said!
The conversion rate is wretched and needs an update.
Even running in sg mode I'm never satisfied, I guess that makes me OCD, or just plain evil.
I wish that I could turn off xp, inf, and just go for like 4x prestige... somehow...
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
[ QUOTE ]
I believe that it's time to weigh in here as this is going completely down hill and a quite innocent question that sought only knowledge is being trashed and vilified by some of you. The OP, who is actually one of the Market Forums more altruisitc members, is being treated by some as little better than a terrorist.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. Fulmens is not a terrorist. I fully believe that Fulmens was trying to ask an innocent question until this post. That was the line crossed between innocent question and preaching the virtues of the market.
This however doesn't make Fulmens a bad person.
[ QUOTE ]
My wife and I are the proud owners of a 15 million+ prestige base on Justice Blue side that houses only our alts. We started it back when the costs of plots, rooms and equipment were much more expensive and you had to decide between earning prestige OR influence.
It was extremely hard for us to get a functional base going AND enhance our alts. We literally had to choose between group earning or individual earning and not just for our personal base but for the large Public SG base that we also belonged to.
When the market was introduced we saw it as a huge boon. We could now stay in SG mode 100% of the time and sell our drops to allow us enough influence to slot out our toons at the same time. That's when I became a regular in the market forum.
[/ QUOTE ]
See, preachy again.
[ QUOTE ]
I could have blamed all of the base building difficulty we faced on the PvPer's, the PvP base designers, or the Base builders here and loudly proclaimed that it was all their fault, that it was so time consuming and grindy for me to get a functional base let alone an aesthetically pleasing one, but that would have been as completely inaccurate as the above is.
[/ QUOTE ]
My responses have little to do with blaming marketers for ruining the game. I have a problem with people trying to convince me that their playstyle is for me. I've used the market system, but when I'm getting consistently messed over by under-bidders and those inflating prices "just because", it gets tiresome.
[ QUOTE ]
If you must lay blame, put it where it belongs, in the hands of the people who actually have control of the code, the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I agree that a lot of the blame falls on the developer's shoulders.
[ QUOTE ]
I could have claimed that magic desks and magic doorways were "exploits" and the base builders that used them should be banned and get all bent out of shape that they actually wrote GUIDES to teach other people how to use the "exploits" but I didn't.
I took it at face value that some folks had learned an easier way to do something and wanted to share with the other folks in game, to help them, and save them the trouble of learning the hard way.
Most of the folks in the market forum are just doing the same things that you all are. Congratulations you on your successes, sympathizing with your failures, and teaching the open minded how to do something better or easier with out having to learn the hard way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Strawman agrument. The fact that some people exploited the base system has nothing to do with this discussion. However I do agree that instead of being rewarded they should likely have lost those bases.
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This statement is so bereft of facts that it is painful.
The devs do not cater to the marketeers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Incorrect.
Sunstorm posted this:
[ QUOTE ]
Q. Salvage Storage Racks, Why only 30 pieces of invention salvage?
A. In short, the market. The market system is designed to have a steady supply of salvage coming in. If large salvage racks were added, it would create a temporary supply problem of unknown duration until the salvage racks filled up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Had the developers left the base salvage alone or allowed base salvage to be sold for prestige instead of inf, the market section would not be facing the level of animosity in this section.
The market is also cited as the reason that we can't store recipes. Additionally the market is cited as to why we cannot mail items and inf (admittedly this only by players).
[ QUOTE ]
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This whole thread appears to me an attempt to get all us Base Builders to join them, and help drive prices even higher.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it was an attempt for understanding, reaching across the isle, and getting base builders to join but not to raise prices. To lower them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sadly, for every person like Fulmens, I can name at least a half dozen that give the entire market section a bad odor elsewhere. Just like PVP trash talk, having someone crow about how they "stuck it to someone" only causes resentment in other players.
[ QUOTE ]
An influence sink is a way that games like this remove most of the excess influence that is being produced like I demonstrated above. This game has a total of 5 influence sinks. Costume changes, difficulty setting changes, market fees, converting influence to prestege, and buying enhancements whether it be SOs or spending the crafting costs to create IOs (that don't degrade and never need to be replaced, compounding the possible problem of inflation.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, we been asking for a change to the Inf->Prestige conversion since at least August 2007. Actually we also asked for the ability to trade base salvage for prestige directly and that would have keep that from piling up. Instead we got the complete removal of what was actually useful to us, and then had to compete with the market prices and other uses out of the base builder's pockets.
[ QUOTE ]
Some of us wanted to know if the influence to prestige conversion was being used enough to be effective at removing some of the excess influence.
[/ QUOTE ]
Had this question appeared alone, without the attempt to get more people using the markets, then the question could have been succinctly answered: There is no way it would be used enough to make any sort of dent in how much inf is around.
As I said above, the conversion at the registrars is so insane that no one would use it. Actually one group uses the conversion, but that won't help you at all. The one group that does use it are players on the Test Server. Why? It is because you can copy a character with several million Inf to the test server, hand off the inf, delete the now penniless copy, and repeat. That is a license to print Inf.
[ QUOTE ]
We were hoping we could join with the base builders (since you folks actually DID get some attention from the devs in I13, a trick we certainly haven't been able to pull off) in requesting that the devs actually LOOK at making the influence to prestige conversion WORTH using to take some of the excess influence out of the system and help reduce prices for the brand new player AND make it easier on the brand new base builder to get a functional and even elegant base a little faster and a little easier than we all were able to do for ourselves, but I guess that was too much to hope for.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except it was the wrong way to do so.
To make matters worse for the market section, some base builders are upset with loosing the ability to store 2,470 pieces of salvage with the Issue 13 changes. Some base builders are upset that we are pretty much forced to use the market system to craft the items for our base (somewhat lessened now thanks to the Architect). This is because instead of having a special salvage that the group can freely donate, we have to compete with all the other uses for invention salvage. The leading competitor is the market because invention salvage sells for so much.
Then there are those that do treat the market system as PVP. There are also others that oppose suggestions based only on the market's health.
Edit:
I will add one thing as a badge collector, not a base builder. If the market fees for selling items (not placement fees) counted towards the Inf badges, I would say that there would be a greater influx of badge collectors using the market. They would gladly put stuff up for sale.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
[ QUOTE ]
1) Does anyone use the inf-to-prestige conversion these days?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yah, I do. While the rate is horrible, I can still make it faster on the market than by running missions. I personally have over 5 million in Prestige contributed to my base. About 4 million of that was purchased.
I buy a chunk whenever I hit the inf cap.
[ QUOTE ]
2) Are any base builders also marketeers?
[/ QUOTE ]
I use the market, I collect badges, I roleplay, I build bases, I write MA stories. Sometimes I even PVP.
I'm just a player who tries to take advantage of every aspect of the game.
Which is why I've been here 5 years steady, I guess.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
So much for keeping an open mind and avoiding being elitists.
[ QUOTE ]
See, preachy again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where do you get preachy again from? That was my first post in this thread. Unless as an elitist you are assigning the sins of others to me.
[ QUOTE ]
Strawman agrument. The fact that some people exploited the base system has nothing to do with this discussion. However I do agree that instead of being rewarded they should likely have lost those bases.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you will see me the strawman and raise me 2?
Let me just remind you that Sunstorm's post caters to the market not the marketeers. There is an unsubtle and important distinction there and your post shows me that though you may speak eloquently your guns are still pointed in the wrong direction.
Additionally the change that you bemoan and blame us for impacted us as well.
Converting base salvage into components for use by the base builder was a great assitance in getting the badges required to getting the portable invention table. Some of the current problems you cite are directly related to having to do much more different kinds of crafting (and using up salvage for things that not nearly enough players use [like taunt IOs]) to get that badge and it affects not only the marketeers that are crafters but the badge hounds as well.
[ QUOTE ]
Had the developers left the base salvage alone or allowed base salvage to be sold for prestige instead of inf, the market section would not be facing the level of animosity in this section.
The market is also cited as the reason that we can't store recipes. Additionally the market is cited as to why we cannot mail items and inf (admittedly this only by players).
[/ QUOTE ]
And exactly what influence do you think the marketeers had in that? We had no more control over that than you did. Your animosity while it may be warranted is most assuredly misdirected.
You can store recipes in your market slots more recipes than you can carry since they will stack if they are identical. If you hate the market so much it's pretty obvious that you aren't using those transaction slots for their intended purpose and since the devs removed the 60 day rule your can use that storage with out any fear of loss.
Additionally both merits and tickets do give you "recipe storage" of sorts. You can now hold 9,999 merits on each character that's 1 merit short of 400 random rolls.
Edit - before you go all technical on me and say that random rolls are not storage please consider that for 250 merits or less you can purchase from a merit vendor the exact recipe you want at the exact level you want. That is 39 exact recipes you can store for as long as you wish to carry the merits no matter how you may want to twist it
None of those things are good for the market health though they can be useful to both marketeers and non-marketeers.
[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, for every person like Fulmens, I can name at least a half dozen that give the entire market section a bad odor elsewhere. Just like PVP trash talk, having someone crow about how they "stuck it to someone" only causes resentment in other players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oddly enough this is true for every section of the game and forums. This forum not withstanding. Fulmens nor I have any more control over their actions than you do. Again, your animosity is misdirected.
[ QUOTE ]
Except it was the wrong way to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
I see, so as a poor, second class citizen, marketeer that doesn't understand elitist protocol, trying to extending a hand and making the grevious error of extending the left hand when it should have been the right or palm up instead of palm down calls for an increase in misdirected animosity rather than a bit of understanding.
[ QUOTE ]
To make matters worse for the market section, some base builders are upset with loosing the ability to store 2,470 pieces of salvage with the Issue 13 changes. Some base builders are upset that we are pretty much forced to use the market system to craft the items for our base (somewhat lessened now thanks to the Architect). This is because instead of having a special salvage that the group can freely donate, we have to compete with all the other uses for invention salvage. The leading competitor is the market because invention salvage sells for so much.
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Again why are you upset with the market section? What control exactly did we have over that? As I mentioned above that hit us nearly as hard as you for portable table crafting requirements.
As far as being upset having to use invention salvage to craft base equipment your animosity is misdirected. There were no increase in drop rates to compensate for the invention salvage base builders are now taking out of the invention system. Should I be upset with you and this section of the forums and take my gripe out on you because you are taking salvage that I should be making inventions with, out of the system to craft your base teleporters?
The spike in demand from that event and the price increase due to the sudden scarcity was clearly "your" fault for having the temerity to use "my' invention salvage.
Should I also be uspet at the players that used to use component salvage for base empowerments now "wasting" "my" invention salvage for a temporary buff when "I" should be using it to craft a permanent enhancement?
Should I be upset with them for using up invention salvage and reducing the supply and thereby incereasing the price both you and I have to pay for it?
What you are blaming me for is no more my fault than the above is yours. Only the point of view has been changed. The shoe is on the other foot and it looks pretty funny with my work boot on your pedicured tootsies.
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Then there are those that do treat the market system as PVP. There are also others that oppose suggestions based only on the market's health.
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Yes and so what does this stawman have to do with any thing. If you want to go there bases were originally intended for PvP use.
I13 caused base raiding to be turned off because the pathing intefered with the base revamp and decorating bases.
Should the people in the PVP Base section of the forums be upset with you?
After all "your" changes to the game have completely prevented the thing that "they" find fascinating about the game from being done.
Base raids in PvP bases don't exist right now. Your section of the game still works though I13 changed it. You got increased function while they got shut down. Should they blame you?
Let me just leave you with this thought. Had the devs implemented inventions with out the market just how easy would it be to IO out your toon?
You wouldn't be able to trade cross server. You wouldn't be able to trade in different zones. You'd have to join a trading channel just to have a chance of transferring goods and that wouldn't even get you in touch with all the people on the server and you'd both have to be logged in at the same time to make a trade.
It would be like HamiOs all over again. Inventions can't function with out the market and vice versa. Sure you can ignore one or the other but it makes doing one with out the other much more difficult. That is the market health the devs are talking about not the marketeers or the market section of the forums.
If you don't like the market and don't want to use it you don't have to all the tools are in place so that you can use inventions with out it. Flashback and other tools provided will even let you gather everything you need for base equipment with out setting foot in the market.
If that's too difficult for you, you can always go back to SOs we all went 8 issues without inventions and SOs still work fine. I have 2 SO'd 50s that I still play.
Anyway it goes though there's no call for "you" to be mad at "me" for changes that someone else made and I have no control over.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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The Devs cator to them, like this is a new form of PVP, as referenced several times above.
I use the Market to IO my toons because there is no other way to accomplish that task.
I have said, and will always say that the prices are extremely excessive, giving the rate people can earn Inf, and drops in the game.
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The market is teh new PvP, and I stay gankin' you.
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This statement is so bereft of facts that it is painful.
The devs do not cater to the marketeers.
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Incorrect.
Sunstorm posted this:
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Q. Salvage Storage Racks, Why only 30 pieces of invention salvage?
A. In short, the market. The market system is designed to have a steady supply of salvage coming in. If large salvage racks were added, it would create a temporary supply problem of unknown duration until the salvage racks filled up.
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Had the developers left the base salvage alone or allowed base salvage to be sold for prestige instead of inf, the market section would not be facing the level of animosity in this section.
The market is also cited as the reason that we can't store recipes. Additionally the market is cited as to why we cannot mail items and inf (admittedly this only by players).
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Miladys_Kinght has been doing a good job of discussing this with you but I thought I'd throw my 2 inf in here.
1 - Nothing about that statement by the devs relates to marketeers. In fact, marketeers would be the least affected by those big storage racks because....
2 - Marketeers don't bother with the cheap invention salvage. Although it's a lot of profit %, the absolute profit is laughable. I can make more just by crafting a L50 common IO and selling it than by flipping a stack of luck charms. It's just not worth the slot. The people that would be hurt most by the shortage of salvage are people like YOU who don't like playing the market and think everything is too expensive.
It seems this is one of your biggest beefs with the market. Believe me, I'd love to see more storage in the bases as well. I just don't see how people that like to play on the market are in any way responsible for these actions by the devs.
You seem like a nice enough person, I don't see why you have to be so antagonistic towards people who enjoy a different part of the game than you. They never did anything to you, even though you stubbornly seem to want to believe it.
Personally, I'd say the loss of base salvage was, from a crafting and marketing perspective, as much of a drag as it was from a base building perspective.
It's my impression that the new system was designed without a knowledge of how bases or the market are generally used. Numbers were looked at, behavior wasn't. I'd call it a recurring oversight (the most recent example would be the MA badges).
While I certainly understand the desire for a streamlined system, wherein salvage is salvage, and I also understand the concern about hoarding, I think both issues could've been addressed in a much less disruptive way, with a much more elegant system.
<ul type="square">[*] Bring back Components[*] Have Components used exclusively for Empowerments and Base Item crafting. [*] Add some salvage pieces that're used exclusively, or almost exclusively, for crafting Components. This would help insulate base stuff from volatile market fluctuations.[*] Create a separate storage unit for Components that can hold a significant inventory. Supergroups that actually make use of Empowerments can blow thru huge numbers of Components. I know this, because not only do I have a group that made use of them (not so much now, because it's currently such a pain), I also used to craft and sell Components. It's really the only explanation for the volume I used to move. [*] Make multiple recipes for the Component pieces. Magic recipes should require magic salvage, tech recipes should require tech salvage. Get rid of the mixed-up jumble we have now, which is both nonsensical and unintuitive.[*] Add a Base Item through which Components can be purchased directly, with Prestige, by individuals with the permission to do so. Obviously, they should be more expensive this way.[/list]
The above would make me happy both as someone who uses the market and as a base architect (currently the builder of 6 different bases).
Also, while you're at it, gimme a blank SG emblem. >.<
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
<QR>
In response to Fulmens OP:
I have never once used the conversion. The ratio is ludicrous.
If we can't afford something, I wait till we've ground it out. Most of the membership (8 friends) doesn't carry more than 6 million inf on any given character. No one is a marketeer, we share and share alike from whatever we earn and whatever drops, just to make sure everyone can make their way. Even if they converted all of their ready cash into prestige, we'd never get more than 100K, maybe. 100K is not enough, when upgrading a small base to a medium base can take 500K without breaking a sweat.
Regardless, I would never ask them to sacrifice the much more valuable influence for prestige. The most I've ever had them do is buy some of the more expensive salvage pieces for crafting teleporters, if we don't already have them lying around. I've noticed with the newest SG that we're making about 300K a week with everyone playing their normal hours. That's equivalent to 150 mill, roughly 20 mill a person if you go by the conversion. I know for a fact that none of us make 20 mill in a week. 2 mill, maybe. None of us are marketeers, we just take the drops as they come.
As to whether there are interested parties who would like to supplement their base building by using the market to feed prestige: no one I play with. The market is a place to sell stuff you don't need, get stuff for IOs, and that's about it.
Hell, a couple of our guys still use SOs, though I'm slowly converting them to at least get generic IOs
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So much for keeping an open mind and avoiding being elitists.
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See, preachy again.
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Where do you get preachy again from? That was my first post in this thread. Unless as an elitist you are assigning the sins of others to me.
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You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
Elitism is the belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. I am not saying that.
I am saying that when a marketeer comes to another section of the forum they tend to preach at those that don't share the view. Preaching in this case is to give earnest advice, in an obtrusive or tedious way. In other words, "I've been able to do X because I was suffering in this way, so let me show you how you can too by following this advice." It generally reeks of moral superiority, and it is annoying.
On second thought, maybe elitism is the correct term, but I think you got the wrong group doing it.
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Strawman agrument. The fact that some people exploited the base system has nothing to do with this discussion. However I do agree that instead of being rewarded they should likely have lost those bases.
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So you will see me the strawman and raise me 2?
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You set up the strawman by arguing that you are doing nothing different that base builders posting what you consider exploits did. You distorted the position of the base builders this was set up in a way that anyone that disagreed was an exploiter. Thus fulfilling the definition of a strawman argument.
I have kept my discussion to the market and marketeers directly. Have you and others tried to convince others to use the market? You have. No straw man there.
Have marketeers done so in a moralizing manner, perhaps. It feels that way to me, but others might not.
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Let me just remind you that Sunstorm's post caters to the market not the marketeers. There is an unsubtle and important distinction there and your post shows me that though you may speak eloquently your guns are still pointed in the wrong direction.
Additionally the change that you bemoan and blame us for impacted us as well.
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The developers are doing this for the market's benefit. The developers believe what benefits the market as benefiting those that use the market. That you might not agree is between you and them, not any other section of the game/forum.
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Converting base salvage into components for use by the base builder was a great assistance in getting the badges required to getting the portable invention table. Some of the current problems you cite are directly related to having to do much more different kinds of crafting (and using up salvage for things that not nearly enough players use [like taunt IOs]) to get that badge and it affects not only the marketeers that are crafters but the badge hounds as well.
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I agree with you here.
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Had the developers left the base salvage alone or allowed base salvage to be sold for prestige instead of inf, the market section would not be facing the level of animosity in this section.
The market is also cited as the reason that we can't store recipes.
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And exactly what influence do you think the marketeers had in that? We had no more control over that than you did. Your animosity while it may be warranted is most assuredly misdirected.
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I will grant you that. You may not have, as a group, influenced these decisions. On the other hand, the developers seem to lend an immense priority to trying to keep the market as a whole happy.
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Additionally the market is cited as to why we cannot mail items and inf (admittedly this only by players).
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This however is directly related to player actions. The market drying up is the bogeyman used repeatedly to shoot this down.
I can tell you of several other attempts that I have made in the past to make it easier for people new to the market, yet every single one of them was given the market's party line: learn to use the market.
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You can store recipes in your market slots more recipes than you can carry since they will stack if they are identical. If you hate the market so much it's pretty obvious that you aren't using those transaction slots for their intended purpose and since the devs removed the 60 day rule your can use that storage with out any fear of loss.
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Actually, you would be wrong about my market slots. For the last two months they have been nearly always full of IOs that I have been selling, rather than just deleting wasted crafts as I try to get fabricator. Sometimes I have to take a huge loss just to get things out of those slots. Yes, I use the market, but I am not seeing it through rose colored glasses.
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Sadly, for every person like Fulmens, I can name at least a half dozen that give the entire market section a bad odor elsewhere. Just like PVP trash talk, having someone crow about how they "stuck it to someone" only causes resentment in other players.
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Oddly enough this is true for every section of the game and forums. This forum not withstanding. Fulmens nor I have any more control over their actions than you do. Again, your animosity is misdirected.
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I think you are reading something that isn't there. I am not angry. At worst I am indifferent due to other people's actions. The market itself, yes, I am angry at. Those that do treat the market as PVP I dislike. I feel that the players that try to tell me how happy-happy joy-joy the market can be annoying, but I don't hate them.
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Except it was the wrong way to do so.
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I see, so as a poor, second class citizen, marketeer that doesn't understand elitist protocol, trying to extending a hand and making the grievous error of extending the left hand when it should have been the right or palm up instead of palm down calls for an increase in misdirected animosity rather than a bit of understanding.
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No, what I am saying is that you may have to try a different approach. The whole "read my book or attend my seminar and you can profit too!" approach reeks of slimy paid television. Repeatedly making the same approach as the other more annoying people is exactly what I mean. Elitism isn't even a factor.
To put this another way, if you failed at selling something at one price, would you continue to try to sell it at the same price?
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Again why are you upset with the market section? What control exactly did we have over that?
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Because, for the most part, I tend not to see the the market system as separate from the marketeers. I think the developers might see it the same way.
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As far as being upset having to use invention salvage to craft base equipment your animosity is misdirected. There were no increase in drop rates to compensate for the invention salvage base builders are now taking out of the invention system.
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I agree, the developers shoulder most of the blame here.
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What you are blaming me for is no more my fault than the above is yours. Only the point of view has been changed.
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Then there are those that do treat the market system as PVP. There are also others that oppose suggestions based only on the market's health.
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Yes and so what does this strawman have to do with any thing.
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To be a strawman I would have set up a distorted or diminished view of your argument. Further, I would have to cite these as proof that you are wrong, and I am right. Neither of these statements fall in the category of strawman.
There are people that treat the market system as PVP.
There are others that oppose suggestions based only on the market's health.
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If you want to go there bases were originally intended for PvP use.
I13 caused base raiding to be turned off because the pathing intefered with the base revamp and decorating bases.
Should the people in the PVP Base section of the forums be upset with you?
After all "your" changes to the game have completely prevented the thing that "they" find fascinating about the game from being done.
Base raids in PvP bases don't exist right now. Your section of the game still works though I13 changed it. You got increased function while they got shut down. Should they blame you?
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The developers were changing pathing rules for PVP, not PVE. During the process they broke the pathing system entirely. Rather than delay the Issue until fixed, they turned off base raids. They should have left base pathing alone until they were able to get it working. Unfortunately, I suspect that while they were able to easily turn off pathing, the solution to having new pathing is much more difficult than they anticipated.
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Let me just leave you with this thought. Had the devs implemented inventions with out the market just how easy would it be to IO out your toon?
You wouldn't be able to trade cross server. You wouldn't be able to trade in different zones. You'd have to join a trading channel just to have a chance of transferring goods and that wouldn't even get you in touch with all the people on the server and you'd both have to be logged in at the same time to make a trade.
It would be like HamiOs all over again. Inventions can't function with out the market and vice versa. Sure you can ignore one or the other but it makes doing one with out the other much more difficult. That is the market health the devs are talking about not the marketeers or the market section of the forums.
If you don't like the market and don't want to use it you don't have to all the tools are in place so that you can use inventions with out it. Flashback and other tools provided will even let you gather everything you need for base equipment with out setting foot in the market.
If that's too difficult for you, you can always go back to SOs we all went 8 issues without inventions and SOs still work fine. I have 2 SO'd 50s that I still play.
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This, again, is what I mean about being preachy. You're tone is one of an adult patting a child on the head and telling them to "play nice". You are extolling the virtues of the market in a condescending manner. You seem intent on trying to "win me over" or make me buy what I have already stated that I don't want to.
I had this happen in real life as well. I recently activated a replacement credit card and while I was on the phone the customer service staff was pushing their credit insurance. I told them "no", which they took that I was "undecided" and were going to enroll me anyways.
Even though I never asked about the relationship between inventions and the market, I agree that Inventions and the markets are closely tied together.
I had no problem getting HamiOs or trading them, even on a smaller server like Triumph.
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Anyway it goes though there's no call for "you" to be mad at "me" for changes that someone else made and I have no control over.
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Again, I am not mad at you or Fulmens specifically. I am making an observation on the actions of the players repeatedly attempting to win converts to the market, and sometimes blocking other player's suggestions based solely on market health.
However, I am annoyed that you continue to talk down to me or try to convert me though. I am also amused that you are taking my statements as being "elitist".
I am saddened that you do not seem to realize that I agree with you that the developers are to blame about the changes. However those changes are made. While you and others like you are not responsible, the image exists that the market and the marketeers is the same thing.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Marketeers don't bother with the cheap invention salvage. Although it's a lot of profit %, the absolute profit is laughable. I can make more just by crafting a L50 common IO and selling it than by flipping a stack of luck charms. It's just not worth the slot. The people that would be hurt most by the shortage of salvage are people like YOU who don't like playing the market and think everything is too expensive.
It seems this is one of your biggest beefs with the market. Believe me, I'd love to see more storage in the bases as well. I just don't see how people that like to play on the market are in any way responsible for these actions by the devs.
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As I have said above, I don't hold marketeers directly responsible for this. I place that blame on the Developers attempts at appeasing the markets.
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You seem like a nice enough person, I don't see why you have to be so antagonistic towards people who enjoy a different part of the game than you. They never did anything to you, even though you stubbornly seem to want to believe it.
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I wish everyone that loves the market the best market possible.
I just don't want it rammed down my throat that I should somehow see it as a means of curing other ills of the game. I don't want it used as an excuse to block suggestions that would benefit the game.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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It's my impression that the new system was designed without a knowledge of how bases or the market are generally used. Numbers were looked at, behavior wasn't. I'd call it a recurring oversight (the most recent example would be the MA badges).
[/ QUOTE ]
I would fully believe this.
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While I certainly understand the desire for a streamlined system, wherein salvage is salvage, and I also understand the concern about hoarding, I think both issues could've been addressed in a much less disruptive way, with a much more elegant system.
<ul type="square">[*] Bring back Components[*] Have Components used exclusively for Empowerments and Base Item crafting. [*] Add some salvage pieces that're used exclusively, or almost exclusively, for crafting Components. This would help insulate base stuff from volatile market fluctuations.[*] Create a separate storage unit for Components that can hold a significant inventory. Supergroups that actually make use of Empowerments can blow thru huge numbers of Components. I know this, because not only do I have a group that made use of them (not so much now, because it's currently such a pain), I also used to craft and sell Components. It's really the only explanation for the volume I used to move. [*] Make multiple recipes for the Component pieces. Magic recipes should require magic salvage, tech recipes should require tech salvage. Get rid of the mixed-up jumble we have now, which is both nonsensical and unintuitive.[*] Add a Base Item through which Components can be purchased directly, with Prestige, by individuals with the permission to do so. Obviously, they should be more expensive this way.[/list]
The above would make me happy both as someone who uses the market and as a base architect (currently the builder of 6 different bases).
[/ QUOTE ]
I would fully back these suggestions.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
As a final reply to this thread, I would state that I don't hate people using the market. I just don't think that it should take precedence over other aspects of the game. I also think that market people should try a different approach than to try winning over new converts to the market system.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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You seem like a nice enough person, I don't see why you have to be so antagonistic towards people who enjoy a different part of the game than you. They never did anything to you, even though you stubbornly seem to want to believe it.
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I wish everyone that loves the market the best market possible.
I just don't want it rammed down my throat that I should somehow see it as a means of curing other ills of the game. I don't want it used as an excuse to block suggestions that would benefit the game.
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This thread was about using prestige conversion to lower the amount of surplus inf in the game. You could see that as using other parts of the game to cure the market's ills....the exact opposite of what is apparently being rammed down your throat. Food for thought?
And of course, they only people using the market as an "excuse to block suggestions that would benefit the game" would be the devs. Take your angst out on them, not on people who choose to use the system as it was intended to be used.
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This thread was about using prestige conversion to lower the amount of surplus inf in the game. You could see that as using other parts of the game to cure the market's ills....the exact opposite of what is apparently being rammed down your throat.
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Had that been it, then just say so.
Make prestige conversion attractive to base builders (we've been asking for that since Issue 6) and allow badge credit for inf lost to the market selling fees. You would have more people dumping inf to build up bases and you'd have badge collectors selling everything they can get their hands on.
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And of course, they only people using the market as an "excuse to block suggestions that would benefit the game" would be the devs.
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Actually, the devs are not the only ones. There are some players in the badge section, and some in the suggestions section that typify that statement.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
That I treat someone that is acting like a child as a child has nothing to do with the market in general or specific. That it simply my life experience at work.
I have 8 grand children that range from 1-12 years of age. I spent the majority of my adult life doing some type of customer service work and 15 of those years were spent associated with elementary and secondary education.
So that is my personal nature and experience not any thing to do with the market. I'm usually a pretty nice guy and I try to help people the best I can.
It gives me pain to see someone trying to do a job and making it harder on themselves than it should be simply from a lack of knowledge.
It's worse when they have the knowledge but do not wish to or fail to use it and worse still when they find fault with those who do.
When someone blames me for their self inflicted problems my old customer service hackles rise.
If you feel I've treated you as a child you have my apology and a "Preachy" explanation. If you have been behaving like a child I leave that up to you to self judge.
I've tried to be nice, I've tried to help, I've tried to extend a hand.
In my experience intelligent and reasonable people are those who listen to someone that have more experience, weigh their advice when making their desicion, make use of those things that apply when they try it themselves, and then take the blame when they make their own mistakes.
For the other sort, once you have done every thing you can to help someone, and that person continues to repeat the same behavior in anticipation of different results, it's time to walk away, and let them learn the hard way since that is the only way they will learn.
So.... cya around.
::bows::
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Give peace a chance!
I'm a marketeer. An ebil marketeer, even.
However, I think there is a lot the market forum could learn from the base forum and vice versa.
For the last few months, I've been trying to make a solo base to assist in my marketing. Basically, I want a place to store stuff so I don't need to tie up market slots.
Base building is really complicated, even the new system with invention rather than base salvage. I just want to have a few storage bins and a few teleporters but it seems beyond my grasp as I have no idea what badges/crafting tables etc I need. I seem to be always short of something; plot space, control, energy, prestige or badges. Often I can't even work out the name of the thing I want to add the the base.
I've read in this thread quite a few posts about inf being more valuable than prestige. I wonder if this is because builders are constantly amassing prestige in the way marketers amass influence.
To give an example: a couple of days ago I gave a friend 200 million influence. Now, that's more than I would usually gift someone, but losing even 200M is only a minor inconvenience for me - most of my toons have at least 50-100M inf, and I have a couple of "rich" toons that have 500M, and one with 1.5B. And I'm not even very good at ebil marketing because there are many market forumites that make me look like a pauper.
However, Prestige is very valuable to me, because I have barely any. If I could convert, say, 300 or 400M to have the base I want, I'd probably do it. But would I get the base I want for that?
I'm sure (like the market forum) you get a lot of blow ins that ask the same dumb questions that have been answered over and over. Probably (like the market forum) you patiently explain the same stuff over and over again.
I don't know if you get people like we get in the Market Forum, that only seem to come in to sledge the market system. Do you get people coming in here and saying that the base system is total crap? In the market forum we get a bit tetchy with these people and sometimes overreact. I think that is what has happened here.
Fulmens was not sledging base building, or saying that you should be marketing instead of base building, but making a genuine attempt to see if there are any areas of synergy... any knowledge of making inf that might be helpful to base builders... and I am certainly interested in any knowledge that base builders have that would assist me in making inf.
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Demon_Hunter: The tone you thought you heard was not the tone I intended, but the essence is accurate. There are cases where people in community A complain, a lot, about problems that are known and solved in community B. (one common complaint is "things are too expensive.")
So I was, in fact, a guy with a solution looking to see if there was a problem that I could apply it to. Apparently there isn't.
Demon_Hunter, Snow_Globe: I apologize for troubling you.
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Fulmens, if you sincerely didn't intend the tone I read into what you said, then I'll take you at your word on that, and I apologize. Given the way the members of the Market forums are viewed by non Market viewers though, you have to know your motives and comments might be at best viewed with skepticism though, once you decide to start talking about using the Market's ability to fix someone else's ills. I won't go into the number of issues base builders face, as others have outlined those already. Its not something as simple as "make more money and it all goes away though," as you may have thought. I'll take your word that you had good intentions on that.
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Or do I have no real audience here?
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This. The market can go play with itself.
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*sigh* I certainly would not go so far as Snow Globe chose to in this less than eloquent retort. I don't particularly like the Market, but I've had to accept that its a necessary evil to spend time there if I want to have things in this game that I need for my characters. As I said before, I've got a few hundred million inf on both sides. Its definitely not because it became fun for me to do it though. I do it because it's the only avenue to afford the things I wanted, unless I was lucky enough to get the drops myself.
Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.>
Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds))