The Whole Inf System (troublemaker question)

Fulmens · 05-21-2009 02:37 PM

I was pondering [sic] the inf system we have. Pardon me while I do my thinking in public.

Obviously the inf system we started with was broken- before the market, level 50's had far more inf than they could spend. The only sinks were tailors and SO's... from level 42 to 43 I think I got enough inf for my level 45 and level 50 SO's.

The IO system was created -boom, a money sink. And boom, an excuse for people to make money... there had been 3 trillion inf created in I1-I8, mostly by accident.

So 10% of every item price (or 20% if it was flipped) was destroyed. So every newly created infium [singular of inf] in the system was spent ten times before it got destroyed in market fees.

There were other inf sinks- crafting, and buying common recipes from the table- and sources- selling common recipes to the vendor. Selling salvage is basically a nonsource, because you get such tiny amounts for it.

The "Selling common recipes" turned out to be a hugely greater source of inf than "buying common recipes" was a sink. I'd guess 100 times greater.

"Crafting" is not much of a sink, it turns out. I think it works out to something like 5 million inf per full level 50.

So we have a chunk ton of inf SOURCES and very few inf SINKS, and small ones. If you spend 1 hour playing the high-level game and create (conservatively) 2 million inf, that "equates" to 20 million inf being spent at Wentworth's. Or it will build four level 50 set recipes, or eight level 50 generics, or about twenty level 39 set recipes.

Creating new, shinier and rarer IO's (Purples, for instance) doesn't help much- people work harder to create them, in the process creating the inf to buy them. Which inf gets spent, inflationarily, ten times...

Creating tickets has a lot of potential. You get rid of the generic recipe supply... what is that, about 1/3 of your inf supply right there? And you let people decide to go for the shiny stuff instead of the oversupplied stuff. Thus creating shortages of salvage, thus increasing prices, thus encouraging flipping [and its double-the-fee benefit to society]. Unfortunately flipping a 50K uncommon doesn't make much of a dent when you use it to craft a 5 million inf recipe.

Anyway, I think the amount of inf in the game is growing fast- and I see no reason why under the current rules it would stop growing or even slow down much.

It is much less obvious to me that this is a true problem. As long as everyone's buying and selling the same stuff, does it matter if we tack a zero onto the end of every price? Not much. It may make a difference, though, to the ignorant and the new; the people who haven't grasped the simple-to-us principles of buying and selling. I find it inelegant to have ever-increasing prices; that doesn't mean that the prices themselves are a problem.

So my questions:
1) Do you think that we have, truly, inflation? Most of the "middle class valuables" (Detonation Acc/Dam, to pull an example out of the air) are about the same price they were a month after issue 9 hit. Those may be priced at "round up to a nickel" levels, however. Recently I've seen people rounding up to the nearest 100K for common IO's, and lots of them.

2) Do you think that inflation [should it exist] is a problem?

3) What tools are there for fighting inflation of this sort?

My answers are 1) Yes, and 2) Maybe.

I have a few ideas for 3).

a) Increase the Wentworth's fee to 12.5% . Money only lasts through 8 "spendings" instead of 10, cutting the effective supply by 25%. I think.
b) Add new services and/or new fees. A guaranteed inf transfer for 12%, for instance, or a influence-to-infamy (and vice versa) transfer for 15% or 20%. There are individuals offering this service now, but a feature of the game would be used by more people, and be more convenient.

c) This one I'm not sure about... but a graduated Wentworth's fee would be an interesting idea. 8% for small transactions, 12% over 1 million, 16% over 10 million and 20% over 100 million. It would have the advantage that it would destroy the inf where it existed, rather than hitting "the casual player [sic]" .

d) This one is kinda wacky... 10 million, or 100 million inf = NCSoft donating $1 to a real charity. If someone dumps 20 billion into that at 100-million-to-1, that's $200. If a trillion [there are trillions out there] gets dumped, that's $10,000 which seems like a financial hit that NCSoft could take. I know, I'm spending other people's money with a fine and generous hand.

Ideas? Opinions?

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

BLYKMYK · 05-21-2009 03:20 PM

Perhaps there will be some sort of money sink for "Going Rogue"...

I would agree that there is too much money in the system. On the other hand, (much like America?) it is in the hands of a relative few. So, it would be difficult to work down their totals without hurting the ones without any Influence.

prvtslacker · 05-21-2009 03:41 PM

the growing INF problem that you see, is bacause at lvl 50 most of the time you have all you want. The purples, come to those that spend/fine & make them. But in the end you still play your 50 and still make money.

in real life that does not happen, you still need gas, food, house payment (ok SG base payment, but this comes out of a different pool of wealth), Taxes. I know you are not working at work doing your job and Poof you have a box of raisen brain on your desk. Dont like it sell it, where??

infation .. means prices go up and value of money doesnt. Well Value of money doesnt go up but more is produced daily. Real world if more is made, x amount needs to be distoryed 1st. reason we use paper money and dont really see anything from 1967 unless someone saved it.

3a) maybe will work, but the poor will scream unfair, how many poor ppl compared to rich ppl. I have 2 pages of toons and 4 are 50's. The 50s wont care, 40's might not care depending on what I done money wise with them (my crab 43 has 1mil right now - and only half way done with the re-spec/rebuild). my Pre-mid 20 would hate losing more money, and but they live with DO/SO.

b) would make my villains have a bit more cash and I would use it 1-2 times.. not sure beyound that.

c) Trade channels will pop us and be used more ... cut price of WW by 10% and make the items only show up on your server. Champs has one, used a but but not much.

d) drive the cost of the game up with ppl making donations = or more than there monthly fees.

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Mind Forever Burning · 05-21-2009 03:42 PM

All that matters is the ratio of items to inf. On the creation side, that ratio is fixed (aside from changes made to the game, like merits or the KHTF nerf) - so no inflationary pressure. On the destruction side, it might be true that items get destroyed faster than inf, in which case we should increase WW fees to compensate. But it's hard to say.

And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines

Stillhart · 05-21-2009 03:43 PM

Well admittedly I'm a noob here so most of this is going to be based on what I've read, not what I know to be true (in the game I mean) so feel free to correct any incorrect assumptions.

It seems to me that the lack of inf sinks does undoubtedly cause inflation. However, I don't think it's a major problem for several reasons:

1 - Most of the money is in the hands of a very few. Either those who have been in the game for ages, or those who put forth the effort to farm/grind/marketeer their way into the billions. These few are going to be spending much less money (because they have everything they want) so they don't really affect the market (they are already purpled out so by holding inf, they're essentially lessening the money supply like a central bank would). They may cause minor perturbances in the high-end markets when they start an alt and spend 1b inf on getting them kitted up, but that passes.

2 - Inflation fears in video games usually end up with people scared of barriers to entry for noobs. While the money is out there and in the hands of a few, there are now new tools to redistribute that wealth. Tickets, for instance, let you get recipes you wouldn't necessarily be able to get otherwise. This lets people sell for a ton of money and become "rich" themselves.

3 - At the end of the day, we're talking about an electronic currency. Paying 10x as much for the same goods isn't an inconvenience...you're not going to have people with wheelbarrows full of $1 bills buying their $1mil L30 Common IO. You just type an extra zero. As long as noobs have equal access to all this cash, the fact that it's out there isn't a huge deal, especially since many of the inf sinks are percentage-based.

Just some thoughts to consider...hastily jotted down at work when nobody's looking....

FourSpeed · 05-21-2009 04:22 PM

I typed my usual extremely verbose response in the other thread

tl/dr version...

1> I don't think we have "inflation" here... Game challenges are still balanced to SO's,
and those (and even common IO recipes) are flat priced (at stores and crafting tables).

Buying power (imho) is higher than it's ever been, which to me, is the opposite of inflation...
I think there is a far larger segment of the population that has more inf than they can
spend than ever before.

2> I don't see that as problematic per se. The Devs might if they don't want an influence
surplus in the game and/or if they feel it is too easy for players to equip their toons.

I have no idea about their take on it, but as a player, I *like* not having to worry if my
toons can afford the enhancements they want.

3> Given my feeling on #2, I don't think we *need* more inf sinks. However, I'd have no
problem whatsoever with them if: A> They creatively motivate me into *wanting* to
spend my influence. B> If they don't impair the ablility to equip my characters to reasonable
levels (depending on the definition of "reasonable")

Regards,
4

I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.

Lohenien · 05-21-2009 04:52 PM

I think we should try out scaling consignment fees, BUT the scale only comes into play for actual sales (listing fees would still be 5%, but sale fees would be 5-25% scaled from 10 mil to 100 mil).

This means that even 'poor' players could afford to list things for sale, but higher sales get more after sale fees.

I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

Noght · 05-21-2009 08:16 PM

OK, I just have to say this...Influence (and Infamy) isn't created at the Market.

Someone, Somewhere, must defeat a mob to get the coin of the realm. THEN someone can buy whatever at the market.

So while the market is a great way to "make" money...it really just transfers money from one toon to another taking a 10% cut along the way.

Unless I'm totally confused and Toons are creating Influence some other way.

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SwellGuy · 05-21-2009 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Unless I'm totally confused and Toons are creating Influence some other way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not currently but 2 years ago for a few months...

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

Bad_Gobi · 05-22-2009 04:34 AM

anyway to factor the inf lost to the system on toons were the player has left the game...?

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Fulmens · 05-22-2009 04:36 AM

*Facepalm* I'd forgotten the memorized/respec trick.

Keepdistance's line is hard to argue with:
[ QUOTE ]
All that matters is the ratio of items to inf. On the creation side, that ratio is fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

... I keep thinking there's a flaw in there somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

SwellGuy · 05-22-2009 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
*Facepalm* I'd forgotten the memorized/respec trick.

[/ QUOTE ]

The funny thing is I am trying to grasp (as it relates to the markets) is whether there is any difference between the following actions:
1) (no longer available) memorize and respec to create new inf
2) defeat enemies and get inf
3) defeat enemies and get drops or tickets to turn into drops and then vendor them

All 3 actions do simply create inf that did not exist before. It was always an amusing thought when I would play DnD or EQ and realize the drops (including the money) were essentially coming from nothing. In real life we have finite resources but in the game the system will just keep making more enemies with stuff including money in the form of inf here and gold/plat/silver in EQ.

In real life when you quit or get banned your assets still exist for others to use but in the game it is gone unless you return later.

So, I wonder how the creation of wealth from nothingness in games like ours impact economic theories beyond the obvious supply and demand issues.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

Fulmens · 05-22-2009 06:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am trying to grasp (as it relates to the markets) is whether there is any difference between the following actions:
1) (no longer available) memorize and respec to create new inf
2) defeat enemies and get inf
3) defeat enemies and get drops or tickets to turn into drops and then vendor them

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't choose to do 2, or to do 3. All you can do is defeat enemies. Some % of the time you get just inf, some % of the time you get "vendor trash", and some % of the time you get "something worth selling at Wents."

If you do something like 1), you throw off the KeepDistance ratio (inf to stuff) and supply goes down and prices go up.

Remember that 2XP weekend where people found a way to loop through Welcome to Vanguard? That created inf, and empty slots, but no stuff and people bought out Wentworth's to the bare shelves. There was a shortage of Ruin Dam/Rech recipes, if I recall... they bought EVERYTHING.

One variation on the KeepDistance ratio is that not all stuff is created equal. If you're playing high-level content with a 50, you only generate stuff at level 50. If you do nothing but, I dunno, the Freakspec, you only generate stuff at level 45-ish. And if you play more hours on a 50 than on the way to 50, you'll create as much "50 stuff" as "pre-50 stuff"- probably more.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

SwellGuy · 05-22-2009 06:27 AM

The primary reason I separated 2 and 3 is because you can choose by not keeping your inventory slots cleared or by malefactoring/exemplaring low enough and because I excluded the market from the consideration. I meant NPC vendor by vendor them.

Selling at the markets always brings me inf from someone else and I was only looking at the times when inf is simply created from nothingness. But selling to an NPC creates new inf just as defeating the enemy had.

But I did want to keep #3 generic enough to include buying level 40 sleep recipes for 11 inf at a market and NPC vendoring them for thousands.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

Sailboat · 05-22-2009 06:27 AM

Hospital fees on defeat?

"Carbon Tax" on Vet powers -- costs INF to use them? Is there a mechanic for burning influence like endurance usage? This one would tend to hit more established players at least.

Influence erodes over time? This one makes no sense in terms of inf as "currency," but perhaps does make sense in the original concept of influence/fame with the public for your visible acts. In keeping with the universal principle of "what have you done for me lately" Inf could gradually degrade as it sits unused. Up to the devs whether a sliding scale hitting the wealthier harder is used, or a fixed proportion, which would still loom larger if you were rich.

One possible downside to "erodes over time" might be that it would encourage spending in bursts -- earn a lot and use it right now before it starts to leak away. Would that be a disadvantage?

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

Fulmens · 05-22-2009 06:41 AM

People hate "erodes over time" stuff a lot. They're going to say things like "It's like a tax for breathing." and "This is what I get for still playing the game".

I still remember Ego's Shadow hating base rent [back when it was much larger and based on plot size, not actual functional items] with the fire of a thousand firetanks.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.

SwellGuy · 05-22-2009 06:45 AM

Not to mention "erodes over time" was similar to the 60 day market policy the devs removed.

I hate rent because I have to travel to Port Oakes and AP/GC to pay. We should be able to pay it in any city zone.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

Catwhoorg · 05-22-2009 06:54 AM

1) No. Whilst there is a significant RISK of inflation, right now we dont appear to have significant inflation. The problem is determining a decent baseline, because pretty much every 'event' cuases a blip which lasts for a month or more.

One exception: Purples seem to be trending up, even with the MA changes pushing folks back towards PI/GV farms. I tend to not worry unduly about the inflation at the very best of the best, as its ragged edge stuff. As soon as something 'better' comes along there is a massive crash.
PvP sets have still in my opinion yet to find equilibrium.

2) Inflation is a major issue when it occurs in an MMO, in that it creates a barrier to entry for new players. One way gear based MMos get round this is through the gear cascade, where the newest uberest lewt, crashes lower 'good' gear prices.

3 ab and c I could get behind any of these (or all even) if the Devs determined that the inf available was rising significantly.
3d would be cool, but I dont see NCsoft going for it.

Another idea used in gear games is 'repair' costs, which doesn't fit here. Can you imagine having to spend 10% of your IO crafting costs every month to prevent the chnace of them 'failing'. I would hate this.

@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

Egos_Shadow · 05-22-2009 07:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I still remember Ego's Shadow hating base rent [back when it was much larger and based on plot size, not actual functional items] with the fire of a thousand firetanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still hate rent, just to note. I've managed to control my boundless rage over it, however, by avoiding the base forums and liberally ignoring huge swaths of the forums.

Wealth decay is the devil.

@Mindshadow

Egos_Shadow · 05-22-2009 07:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
d) This one is kinda wacky... 10 million, or 100 million inf = NCSoft donating $1 to a real charity. If someone dumps 20 billion into that at 100-million-to-1, that's $200. If a trillion [there are trillions out there] gets dumped, that's $10,000 which seems like a financial hit that NCSoft could take. I know, I'm spending other people's money with a fine and generous hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they used the Penny Arcade "Child's Play" charity for this, it could make for some interesting PR. $10k would be cheap if they can get mentioned even once on the PA front page, and CP has enough mindshare among internet gamers that you'd probably have a lot of people doing the conversion.

@Mindshadow

Another_Fan · 05-22-2009 08:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention "erodes over time" was similar to the 60 day market policy the devs removed.

I hate rent because I have to travel to Port Oakes and AP/GC to pay. We should be able to pay it in any city zone.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the base.

Sailboat · 05-22-2009 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wealth decay is the devil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't open any 401K statements you might get in the mail.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

SwellGuy · 05-22-2009 09:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wealth decay is the devil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't open any 401K statements you might get in the mail.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't decay.

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

Aura_Familia · 05-22-2009 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wealth decay is the devil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't open any 401K statements you might get in the mail.

[/ QUOTE ]

That wasn't decay.

[/ QUOTE ]

More like a shotgun blast to the face in equivalency for what's happened to some 401K statements.

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Cherokee · 05-22-2009 09:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps there will be some sort of money sink for "Going Rogue"...

I would agree that there is too much money in the system. On the other hand, (much like America?) it is in the hands of a relative few. So, it would be difficult to work down their totals without hurting the ones without any Influence.

[/ QUOTE ]

This.

I always thought about a tax on say like if you had over 500 mill(just throwing out a number). I guess i'm saying that cause I am nowhere near that yet. Tell yathe truth, I dont like my RL money messed with and I wouldn't want my game money messed with either. I hoard in RL and I try to in game. Mainly cause I dont have a lot of inf. I'm trying though.