The Whole Inf System (troublemaker question)
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2009-05-21 14:37 in The Market and Inventions
[ QUOTE ]
A money surplus is not problematic; an severely uneven money surplus might be.
Nobody likes being the loser.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps. But now you're getting into an entirely different issue altogether.
I've little doubt that the influence distribution is non standard - ie. a relatively small
percentage of the population probably has a large percentage of the wealth.
That's true in RL as well.
RL is a much more difficult nut to crack, unfortunately.
In-game however, it has been demonstrated repeatedly on several occasions that the
L10 challenge is easily met with no special knowledge or techniques at all.
Also demonstrated reliably and repeatedly is that even a modest amount of effort
and knowledge is more than sufficient to easily equip any toon with everything except
the most expensive, top tier shinies.
It has been further shown that (arguably) obscene amounts of influence can be gained
with expert level knowledge and/or focused marketing strategies.
In the standard car analogy, Kias and Hondas are free, essentially just for showing up,
BMW's and Lexuses abound for next to minimal efforts, and even Lamborghini's and
Ferraris are there for the taking, given sufficient time, knowledge and effort.
I'm having a difficult time seeing "losers" here (except for the clueless/lazy) or how
it implies evidence of a poor, broken, game/economy model.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
I'm pretty sure it was Nethergoat who posted about it eons ago, but influence distribution and therefore price setting is heavily skewed towards actively played level 50's. They earn inf faster and even a hundred million doesn't take that long to gain. They are heavy consumers of the "good" stuff and I think that is why those prices are the ones seeing inflationary pressure.
[ QUOTE ]
In the standard car analogy, Kias and Hondas are free, essentially just for showing up, BMW's and Lexuses abound for next to minimal efforts, and even Lamborghini's and Ferraris are there for the taking, given sufficient time, knowledge and effort.
I'm having a difficult time seeing "losers" here (except for the clueless/lazy) or how
it implies evidence of a poor, broken, game/economy model.
[/ QUOTE ]
A lot of people don't want to put forth the effort to buy themselves a Lamborghini. I'm not sure MMOs are the right games for those people, though. Perhaps a nice shooter with the cheat codes to get the BFG from the start.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure it was Nethergoat who posted about eons ago, but influence distribution
and therefore price setting is heavily skewed towards actively played level 50's. They earn inf
faster and even a hundred million doesn't take that long to gain. They are heavy consumers
of the "good" stuff and I think that is why those prices are the ones seeing inflationary pressure.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Eons ago", that was probably the entire story as well. It may still be true now, but it needn't
be the case any more. Why? The market.
The market doesn't create *any* new influence. In fact, it actually removes it (through
fees), although, with hundreds of billions coming into the game normally, it can be difficult
to see that sometimes.
But what it does do, better than any other approach, is share/spread rich people's influence
around to other players (including, thankfully, myself). It helps distribute those billions
to players who aren't actually creating it in any appreciable volume.
The market is the #1 way of *evening out* the distribution of influence in this game.
Think about that for a second.
All those guys running all the tf's, grinding the Cimeoran wall with their perma doms and FOTM
fire blasters make massive amounts of influence through sheer time, effort, and power gaming.
But (and I love this), they also *share* their hard-earned (and deserved) influence with me,
and I don't even have to ask them to do so - because of the market.
They get rid of their excess salvage, recipes, SO's, etc. and they spend large amounts
on the market buying what does interest them at NAO prices - because they can.
Prior to the market, those folks still did those sorts of things, but where did the influence go?
Nowhere. Maybe to a costume... Maybe to some SG buddies, but not to you or me.
If I could make the so-called casual gamers (and Positron) see ONE thing in this game,
I'd want them to see this:
Without a doubt, the market is, in fact, the very best enabler for players in this game.
Anything that actually does break the market skews the influence distribution back into
the hands of the farmers, large SG's, full-time players who are creating the bulk of it.
That's why I find this thread interesting... We've seen a lot of recent changes and we've
observed the market effects. A healthy discussion of those changes, as is occurring here
(imho) is a Good Thing. Personally, I think the most recent changes have helped fix the
disaster that I13 merits was causing.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
[ QUOTE ]
It is much less obvious to me that this is a true problem. As long as everyone's buying and selling the same stuff, does it matter if we tack a zero onto the end of every price? Not much.[u] It may make a difference, though, to the ignorant and the new; the people who haven't grasped the simple-to-us principles of buying and selling.[u] I find it inelegant to have ever-increasing prices; that doesn't mean that the prices themselves are a problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a HUGE assumption on your part and one that I can not agree with. Frankly, I am surprised to see you post it considering how broad the generalization actually is. 
I dont want to state the obvious but it will make me feel a bit better, so I will. The Market can be used to generate influence/infamy without ever "playing" the game outside of using the Market. This fact, in essence (no matter how faulty the logic is), is why there is so much hate for the Market and those who champion it. Think of it in terms of real life "class warfare" and you will understand where it comes from and that it will never go away. The efficiency of generating said income through the Market is above and beyond any other revenue stream within the game, due to the nature of how buying and selling over time, while offline, is heavily rewarded.
To answer your question, from my point of view; personally I dont care if we have perpetual in game inflation or rising costs. I dont dig that deep into it as entertainment. I do play alot, but I play doing something I enjoy, and that is enough for me.
Whether I sell my stuff on the market or not has no bearing on what I enjoy within the game. Consequently, the price of something is simply an arbitrary number (or goal) I must achieve and I am rarely concerned with what that actual number is. My only concern is with being able to achieve that goal or number by doing what I enjoy within the game. Unless they remove enemies from the game or remove all rewards for killing enemies, I will always be able to achieve that goal.
Anyway, I didnt mean to preach about how "Ebil Marketeers" misunderstand the reasons why people dont like the Market. Afterall, I enjoy reading all the critical analysis that goes on within this forum specifically. Even if I view it as a waste of time to enjoy a game's economy, I still find it interesting to read the opinions of people who do. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure it was Nethergoat who posted about eons ago, but influence distribution
and therefore price setting is heavily skewed towards actively played level 50's. They earn inf
faster and even a hundred million doesn't take that long to gain. They are heavy consumers
of the "good" stuff and I think that is why those prices are the ones seeing inflationary pressure.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Eons ago", that was probably the entire story as well. It may still be true now, but it needn't
be the case any more. Why? The market.
The market doesn't create *any* new influence. In fact, it actually removes it (through
fees), although, with hundreds of billions coming into the game normally, it can be difficult
to see that sometimes.
But what it does do, better than any other approach, is share/spread rich people's influence
around to other players (including, thankfully, myself). It helps distribute those billions
to players who aren't actually creating it in any appreciable volume.
The market is the #1 way of *evening out* the distribution of influence in this game.
Think about that for a second.
All those guys running all the tf's, grinding the Cimeoran wall with their perma doms and FOTM
fire blasters make massive amounts of influence through sheer time, effort, and power gaming.
But (and I love this), they also *share* their hard-earned (and deserved) influence with me,
and I don't even have to ask them to do so - because of the market.
They get rid of their excess salvage, recipes, SO's, etc. and they spend large amounts
on the market buying what does interest them at NAO prices - because they can.
Prior to the market, those folks still did those sorts of things, but where did the influence go?
Nowhere. Maybe to a costume... Maybe to some SG buddies, but not to you or me.
If I could make the so-called casual gamers (and Positron) see ONE thing in this game,
I'd want them to see this:
Without a doubt, the market is, in fact, the very best enabler for players in this game.
Anything that actually does break the market skews the influence distribution back into
the hands of the farmers, large SG's, full-time players who are creating the bulk of it.
That's why I find this thread interesting... We've seen a lot of recent changes and we've
observed the market effects. A healthy discussion of those changes, as is occurring here
(imho) is a Good Thing. Personally, I think the most recent changes have helped fix the
disaster that I13 merits was causing.
Regards,
4
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.
I hold no illusions that everyone else has the same opinion about that issue though. Some people are very bitter about people using the Market to profit from their labors. Some people directly attribute inflation to the Market and therefore believe higher prices are due to people who enjoy the Market mini-game.
This is something I addressed in my previous post. Generalizing the opinions of people, specifically people who dont even post/read these forums at all, let alone the Market forum; it is just silly. Its a ridiculous assumption that I see people in this forum make all the time. 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is much less obvious to me that this is a true problem. As long as everyone's buying and selling the same stuff, does it matter if we tack a zero onto the end of every price? Not much.[u] It may make a difference, though, to the ignorant and the new; the people who haven't grasped the simple-to-us principles of buying and selling.[u] I find it inelegant to have ever-increasing prices; that doesn't mean that the prices themselves are a problem.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a HUGE assumption on your part and one that I can not agree with. Frankly, I am surprised to see you post it considering how broad the generalization actually is.
I dont want to state the obvious but it will make me feel a bit better, so I will. The Market can be used to generate influence/infamy without ever "playing" the game outside of using the Market.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because it amuses me...
Stating the obvious about your broad generalization:
If you never play the game outside the market you will have nothing to start up in the market with and you cannot do anything in the market if you have nothing.
Barring someone spotting you some free inf, you will not be able to buy/sell in the market without first getting inf from playinng the game.
I really don't care what some anti-market whiners think of people only playing the market any more than an RPer should care what people think of them RPing or any other subclassification of players should think of what another subclassification thinks.
People should play the game they enjoy and quit worrying about everyone else and leave that to NCSoft.
People hate the markets because they are stupid, lazy or unwilling to mind their own business. There is no valid intelligent reason to hate the markets. Only irrational emotional reasons.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
From an economic point of view, CoH is suffering massive Deflation.
In the good old days, your main source of Inf was from defeating mobs. But the curve of Inf earned versus Enhancement costs was broken at the high end. Your first trip to 50 was balanced through the high 30s, but after that Inf built up in unhealthy amounts. As more and more people hit 50, the pool of Inf started building. Join an SG, get some Inf from the founder, and you're set for life. Start an alt, transfer Inf from your 50, and you're set for life. Deflation. The availability of Inf increased dramatically, while the Enhancement costs remained the same.
Then Update 9 came. Mobs started dropping Salvage and Recipes. Boom, higher income from doing exactly the same thing. Those people sticking to TOs, DOs, and SOs had an easier time buying things. More deflation. That said, the addition of IOs opened up an entirely new economic class for those who had massive Inf and the desire to move up. I'm referring to Set IOs, as I'm aware that using Common IOs is approximately the same as SOs. This class had a significantly higher cost of living, due to the higher cost of IOs (Recipes, Salvage, and crafting). You could certainly call this Inflation, but I don't think it really applies unless it affects the entire population. The lower class kept buying SOs, while the middle class started buying Set IOs.
Then purple IOs came out. Boom, higher income from doing the exact same thing if you were playing high level chars. Based on my drop analysis, purples approximately DOUBLED income at level 50. Double Deflation. Ony lucky drop and you could finance SOs for 10 alts through level 50. Purples opened up yet another economic class, the upper class. Those people who had the Inf and the desire could move up yet again, so higher cost of living means Inflation for them. But it isn't really Inflation for all of CoH.
A LOT of Inf these days is trickling down to the lower and middle classes. It's almost trivial getting enough Inf to buy a full set of SOs at level 22, and even uncommon Set IOs are oversupplied thanks to the MA. As Set IOs become more commonplace, it's reasonable to argue that the cost of living for all of CoH is going up. The question is whether or not the Inf supply is going up at the same rate. My guess is no, Inf is increasing faster than the cost of living, but it's just a guess.
One thing that is significantly increasing is the price of luxury goods, meaning purples. That's because more people are working their way into the upper class and competing for those goods, increasing demand. On the flip side, the introduction of the Mission Architect has reduced the supply of purples.
So back to the original post.
1) We do not have Inflation, we have Deflation. But the price of luxury goods is increasing.
2) Yes the Deflation is a problem, because it trivializes Inf.
3) There's nothing to do but start over, and that ain't gonna happen. Since they can't fix Inf, the Devs have started introducing other currencies like Merits and Tickets that aren't exponential in nature. I expect this trend to continue. Maybe have Praetorian Inf in Going Rogue that's flatter like Prestige or Tickets.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they are getting wealthy off of their labor. THIS displays your underlying error.
You are choosing to sell at the price you choose, just like I do, to get their inf now or you are choosing to pay buy it now prices to save your time, just like I do.
They are taking the time and effort to buy and sell patiently to the sell it now and buy it now crowds. They provide a service to save me time. If you could see that you might get it but you don't so you won't. Just like the clueless market haters.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they are getting wealthy off of their labor. THIS displays your underlying error.
You are choosing to sell at the price you choose, just like I do, to get their inf now or you are choosing to pay buy it now prices to save your time, just like I do.
They are taking the time and effort to buy and sell patiently to the sell it now and buy it now crowds. They provide a service to save me time. If you could see that you might get it but you don't so you won't. Just like the clueless market haters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sorry but I do not consider using the Market alone to gain influence in the same vein as I consider generating an actual product.
One is labor the other is using the fruits of someones labor to generate revenue. We definitely disagree on that point. Its similar to saying collecting/generating interest on $1000 requires the same amount of effort (labor) as actually generating that wage through work.
You can call me whatever you want and try to lump me into whatever group you deem appropriate. There are DEFINITIVE differences between the two "types of work" we are discussing. Not the least of which; Marketing can be done while you are offline while generating a product (new influence, salvage, recipes) can not be done offline.
Seriously man, quit pushing your agenda so hard and think about what you are attempting to argue about here. I am not someone who cares one way or another, but I wont let you post things that are simply ridiculous without calling you on it. Especially when you are replying directly to, and selectively quoting, my posts.
I am not interested in arguing semantics with someone on the Market forum or defending every post I make from ridiculous assertions. If thats what your goal is, I am afraid I wont be playing along much longer. 
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I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they are getting wealthy off of their labor. THIS displays your underlying error.
You are choosing to sell at the price you choose, just like I do, to get their inf now or you are choosing to pay buy it now prices to save your time, just like I do.
They are taking the time and effort to buy and sell patiently to the sell it now and buy it now crowds. They provide a service to save me time. If you could see that you might get it but you don't so you won't. Just like the clueless market haters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sorry but I do not consider using the Market alone to gain influence in the same vein as I consider generating an actual product.
One is labor the other is using the fruits of someones labor to generate revenue. We definitely disagree on that point. Its similar to saying collecting/generating interest on $1000 requires the same amount of effort (labor) as actually generating that wage through work.
You can call me whatever you want and try to lump me into whatever group you deem appropriate. There are DEFINITIVE differences between the two "types of work" we are discussing. Not the least of which; Marketing can be done while you are offline while generating a product (new influence, salvage, recipes) can not be done offline.
Seriously man, quit pushing your agenda so hard and think about what you are attempting to argue about here. I am not someone who cares one way or another, but I wont let you post things that are simply ridiculous without calling you on it. Especially when you are replying directly to, and selectively quoting, my posts.
I am not interested in arguing semantics with someone on the Market forum or defending every post I make from ridiculous assertions. If thats what your goal is, I am afraid I wont be playing along much longer.
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I never wrote it was the same. I wrote that it was labor. I bet there are more people who would scoff at you defining playing the game and getting drops as labor than have ever played an MMO.
You do care or you wouldn't claim some superior labor to the marketeers.
You seem to believe there is some virtue in getting drops to bring to market. I am trying to point out to you that without those marketeers you wouldn't be able to sell most of your drops except to NPCs and there would be no amount of inf that would be able to buy certain items.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, they are getting wealthy off of their labor. THIS displays your underlying error.
You are choosing to sell at the price you choose, just like I do, to get their inf now or you are choosing to pay buy it now prices to save your time, just like I do.
They are taking the time and effort to buy and sell patiently to the sell it now and buy it now crowds. They provide a service to save me time. If you could see that you might get it but you don't so you won't. Just like the clueless market haters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Im sorry but I do not consider using the Market alone to gain influence in the same vein as I consider generating an actual product.
One is labor the other is using the fruits of someones labor to generate revenue. We definitely disagree on that point. Its similar to saying collecting/generating interest on $1000 requires the same amount of effort (labor) as actually generating that wage through work.
You can call me whatever you want and try to lump me into whatever group you deem appropriate. There are DEFINITIVE differences between the two "types of work" we are discussing. Not the least of which; Marketing can be done while you are offline while generating a product (new influence, salvage, recipes) can not be done offline.
Seriously man, quit pushing your agenda so hard and think about what you are attempting to argue about here. I am not someone who cares one way or another, but I wont let you post things that are simply ridiculous without calling you on it. Especially when you are replying directly to, and selectively quoting, my posts.
I am not interested in arguing semantics with someone on the Market forum or defending every post I make from ridiculous assertions. If thats what your goal is, I am afraid I wont be playing along much longer.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never wrote it was the same. I wrote that it was labor. I bet there are more people who would scoff at you defining playing the game and getting drops as labor than have ever played an MMO.
You do care or you wouldn't claim some superior labor to the marketeers.
You seem to believe there is some virtue in getting drops to bring to market. I am trying to point out to you that without those marketeers you wouldn't be able to sell most of your drops except to NPCs and there would be no amount of inf that would be able to buy certain items.
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It is superior labor and it doesnt take professional "Marketeers" to make the world go round. I have already given one blatant reason why producing new inf or drops is more intensive labor (superior) and the others are not very difficult to understand either. If you missed it, shame on you. I see no way of viewing it in any other logical fashion outside of blatantly deceiving myself.
Nice strawman by the way; did you actually want a reply to that? 
Thats it for me, i derailed Fulmens thread quite enough by replying to you in defense of my posts. We must agree to disagree. The continued personal insults against those who dont view the Market as you do, do not solve anything. I made my point, and defended it soundly.
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It is superior labor and it doesnt take professional "Marketeers" to make the world go round. I have already given one blatant reason why producing new inf or drops is more intensive labor (superior) and the others are not very difficult to understand either. If you missed it, shame on you. I see no way of viewing it in any other logical fashion outside of blatantly deceiving myself.
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I don't want to fan any flames here, but I strongly disagree that generating inf through drops is somehow "superior" or "more intensive" labor than making inf on the market. It's just different. Generating inf through drops takes more time and to me is boring. Making money on the market takes a lot of thought, research and planning. It's not like we just arbitrarily put up bids and money falls in our laps.
The strongest argument I can give, though, is empirical evidence. The fact is, lots and lots of people don't marketeer. They don't want to put the time and effort into doing the research and planning. To them it's harder or more intensive work than "just playing the game". People like me and people like you have completely different OPINIONS on what's the superior form of labor.
And to address your specific example of making money while you're offline, that's not when you're making the money. All the money is made in the research and planning stages. After that it's just a matter of waiting for it to come to you. Just because the money flows when I'm offline, doesn't mean that's when I'm doing (or NOt doing, as you would imply) the labor. You think I just decided to start playing the market, picked a random IO, and started making 10-15m per sale? It took a lot of time and effort and a spreadsheet or two. Shame on you for discounting the amount of work that we put in.
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It is superior labor and it doesnt take professional "Marketeers" to make the world go round. I have already given one blatant reason why producing new inf or drops is more intensive labor (superior) and the others are not very difficult to understand either. If you missed it, shame on you. I see no way of viewing it in any other logical fashion outside of blatantly deceiving myself.
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I don't want to fan any flames here, but I strongly disagree that generating inf through drops is somehow "superior" or "more intensive" labor than making inf on the market. It's just different. Generating inf through drops takes more time and to me is boring. Making money on the market takes a lot of thought, research and planning. It's not like we just arbitrarily put up bids and money falls in our laps.
The strongest argument I can give, though, is empirical evidence. The fact is, lots and lots of people don't marketeer. They don't want to put the time and effort into doing the research and planning. To them it's harder or more intensive work than "just playing the game". People like me and people like you have completely different OPINIONS on what's the superior form of labor.
And to address your specific example of making money while you're offline, that's not when you're making the money. All the money is made in the research and planning stages. After that it's just a matter of waiting for it to come to you. Just because the money flows when I'm offline, doesn't mean that's when I'm doing (or NOt doing, as you would imply) the labor. You think I just decided to start playing the market, picked a random IO, and started making 10-15m per sale? It took a lot of time and effort and a spreadsheet or two. Shame on you for discounting the amount of work that we put in.
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Just use that poster as an example of an anti-market person who tries to play/pretend and possibly even fool themselves into believinig they aren't. They treat certain market forces as extraneous to the process rather than part of the necessary process.
Basically, they don't get that the real market is the players using it not the database or interface.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
useful analogy:
marketeer = white collar office worker
"regular player" = manual laborer
While some people may assign greater moral value to one set of skills or the other, the bottom line is the system doesn't function without both of them.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
[ QUOTE ]
useful analogy:
marketeer = white collar office worker
"regular player" = manual laborer
While some people may assign greater moral value to one set of skills or the other,
the bottom line is the system doesn't function without both of them.
[/ QUOTE ]
...and to follow up the analogy...
In RL, the office worker might be able to buy a BMW and the manual laborer probably
has a Ford Econoline van.
In-game, the marketeer has a Ferrari - and so could the regular player if they'd learn
to use the market even a little bit, without fundamentally altering either playstyle... <shrug>
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Sorry, I have no tl;dr for this post. Either read it all, or skip it. 
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Here's what I've seen heroside:
There has been a raise in what people are paying for common crafted IO's, and for uncommon salvage. There's been a raise on average for common salvage as well. There's been a lowering of the price for the most expensive rare salvage and there's been a raise of the price on "ordinary" rare salvage (Diamonds for instance.)
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Villainside (since that is where I have spent the vast majority of my time since issue 12), prior to issue 14, common salvage could usually be had for 11-10k (some pieces went up to 25k-100k at times, but not consistently), uncommon for about the same, and rare from just a few thousand to 3-4 million (trending down since the changes in issue 11? 12?, when some pieces were 5-7 million).
During the first month of issue 14 common (500k+ at times, more often 50k-200k) and uncommon (500k-1million at times, more often 200k-500k) salvage spiked big time, and most rare salvage tanked even bigger (25k for prophecies at one point). Presumably, because most people were running AE missions, did not know the reward system well, and did not keep up on price swings at the markets.
Now that it has been worn in, prices seem to be stabilizing around the perceived value of the AE ticket purchases for the rares (500k-1.5 million), and a combination for the uncommons (few hundred to 200k) and commons (due to the volume that drop from even moderate "regular content" play).
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I KNOW there's been a raise over the last two years in many uniques. In some cases the raise is because people figured out "What it's good for." I bought Steadfast Def/Res recipes for 30K each at one point, to give a dramatic example. In others- like anti-KB IO's- I don't know if education alone is sufficient to explain the raise in prices. Karmas used to be 3 to 6 million; my feeling is that they are now 10 to 20 million, though I haven't checked lately.
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I too remember buying my first couple Steadfast -KB's and Res/Def, for under a million between the 3 of them. The next Res/Def I ended up spending 5 million on :/.
Villainside, the -KB's, were up to 30million (maybe only 20 for Steadfast), and 30-50million for the Res/Def. The -KB's, are now at 5-10 million, and the Res/Def is slowly working it's way down (was 30 million a week or two ago, and now is 20-25). All of those are crafted prices, as the recipe prices are much lower (and I am in it for profit ), though I do not remember exactly how much.
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I believe, but haven't proved, that the non-purple "high end stuff" is generally more expensive. And of course purples didn't exist at all.
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I have Purple purchases on a few heroside characters, from just before issue 13, that I have not collected yet (unfortunately, I was unable to do the same villainside). The average price, as of March, had doubled and sometimes tripled. I also had (may have collected them already) some Devastation: Chance for Hold (10ish million to 5-6) and assorted Miracle's (not +recovery; recharge/heal from 20-25 million to 8-13) that went down in price. It also seems like LotG +7.5's depressed slightly (20% or so), villainside, since the release of issue 13. I am not sure what Miracle +Recovery's are at now, but they were around 90-120 million (level 20, I believe).
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Inflation isn't, at least not right now, what I'm worried about. Stratification?
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To me, it looks like there is widespread deflation, though we shall see if it holds despite changes to Ticket drops; with the exception of Purples and TF/Trial pieces (the big 3 at least, as I have not really checked any others). Purples, of course, are mainly supplied by PI/GV farmers, and not obtainable via Merits or Tickets, keeping their production restricted. TF/Trial pieces (really, just the TF side) could be better supplied, but it looks like not very many people do Gold rolls (Tickets) or Random Rare rolls (Merits), opting for Bronze/Silver rolls, and outright purchases with Merits.
Even with the Merit Vendor bug bringing LotG +7.5 prices to 5 million, they went right back to 50+ million when it was fixed. I really do not know what to make of it, other than it more or less mirrors what the "Luck Charmers" went through (although, they spent a lot of money getting those Luck Charms, to flood the market with, rather than for "free" via a bug). What I am getting at is, unless there is a large, sustained shift in "production" of an item/group of items, or a large shift in demand for them (how did Scirocco and Cleaving Blow prices fare, with the introduction of Eradication and Obliteration?), prices should trend fairly uniformly. I will leave it up to someone else to regularly gather the price points (like what Balshor did with salvage), but would be willing to chart it, identify trends, and make comparisons/conclusions.
I think stratification happens in pretty much any economy, real or fake. Actually, in any society, online or off, regardless of economics.
Here, it is pretty much by choice or lack of knowledge. Granted, there are some people that just cannot be helped (particularly, those that have limited/frequently interrupted play time, and either find market play unfun or difficult to exercise).
Many, many others probably could be helped, but do not read the forums, or otherwise come into contact with people willing and able to teach them.
Overall, I am not very worried about it, as it seems the price reductions for Pool A recipes and rare salvage has more than offset the increase in uncommon and common salvage (though, common for the most part, seems to be around pre-i14 levels again). Also, the Common IO segment is at pretty much the same price structure and fluxuations as the last two years, maybe excepting recipe prices (I do not recall how many AE tickets they cost). The only large, sustained price increase, appears to be with Purples, which were touted as ultra-rare luxury items.
The only real issue I see with the preceding paragraph, is that Merit farming and Purple farming will become comparatively more valuable, both of which are not "casual" friendly, and thus sharpen the strata. (Ironically, villainside, the increasing price of Purples makes it increasingly harder to outfit the perfect Purple farmer).
Kudos to anyone who reads this whole post in one sitting, and Thank You. 
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From an economic point of view, CoH is suffering massive Deflation.
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I agree with the term Deflation (I was using Inf Surplus), but we mean the same thing.
I question the use of "suffering" though. I'd like some elaboration there.
I essentially agree with your historical perspective, and I think we may be in agreement
about IO's and Purples leading to different economic classes (sort of), but I tend to see
those as "luxury" items. I'm finding myself at some odds with your point of "cost of living"
as increasing though.
That phrase covers the expenses associated with normal activities. So, I'd assume
you're saying that IO's are now becoming the norm and SO's are gradually phasing
out. I'd agree with you about that.
Even so, on one hand you're saying that IO's cost more, but you're also saying that
income rates rose with the addition of salvage and recipes, and a lucky drop skews
it even higher. That income rise should offset the IO costs (perhaps even profitably
so) which implies a flat, or even lowered, cost of living for IO users, and a definite
lowering for holdout SO users.
Furthermore, these days, many common IO's can be had (with patient bids or crafting)
at near or only slightly above SO pricing. Set IO's vary a lot more depending on set,
but I don't think they outstrip the earning rates - again, tending toward a lower cost
of living, ie. greater buying power.
High-end sets and Purples are true luxury items, and they probably deserve separate
consideration just as RL luxury markets are, but I do agree with you that they are increasing.
[ QUOTE ]
2) Yes the Deflation is a problem, because it trivializes Inf.
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Along the lines of "suffering", I'd also like more elaboration on this statement.
Inf isn't being generated in any other way than it ever was - that's to say, inf is created
only when a content objective occurs (ie. mission complete) or a mob is "arrested".
To be sure, the distribution of said funds has changed drastically with the market, but the
creation mechanism hasn't changed an iota. So, I'm not sure what you mean when you
say inf is "trivialized" - I'd like to understand better what you mean here, and how it
constitutes a problem.
In an economy where the bulk of the population has a flat or lowered cost of living (imho),
I'm not sure how that is bad. In fact, I see it as a door to the luxury segment possibly
being opened (however slowly) to the average player - ie. that price gap may be holding
steady, or perhaps, even narrowing somewhat.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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You think I just decided to start playing the market, picked a random IO, and started making 10-15m per sale?
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You mean I was doing it wrong?
Granted, I did start a spreadsheet later, to track salvage prices, and what I was bidding on with each character.
[ QUOTE ]
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You think I just decided to start playing the market, picked a random IO, and started making 10-15m per sale?
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean I was doing it wrong?
Granted, I did start a spreadsheet later, to track salvage prices, and what I was bidding on with each character.
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LOL!
Yeah I'm getting ready to overhaul my simple salvage tracking spreadsheet into something a little beefier, possibly even a small database. I'd like to be able to see all the trends on multiple scales and timelines and such. This is easyish to do in your head with a few pieces, but to track the whole market...I need beefcake! BEEFCAAAAAKE!! (BTW, it'd be great if they provided this information to everyone, like in Eve. Since they don't, I'll just have to gather it myself and profit from it. Ebil!)
And I haven't branched out to multiple toons yet, but I recognized the need recently to make sure I'm no competing with myself. This means, as you said, tracking what each toon is working on. Before that, though, it means finding more niches....*sigh* That's the most annoying part of the whole process, IMO.
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The fact is, lots and lots of people don't marketeer. They don't want to put the time and effort into doing the research and planning. To them it's harder or more intensive work than "just playing the game".
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I represent that remark. I haven't been working the market at all for many months now, aside from a bit of crafting and selling common IOs. Many's the time I've thought I should get back into it a bit to make some inf, but the thought of doing the research to find some good niches to work made me cringe. I admit it wouldn't really take that long, or that much effort, but it's highly unpleasant to me.
It may not be work to some, those who enjoy it, but to me it is like work. If my job was getting my teeth drilled that is. For those who enjoy it, or who do it even though they don't enjoy it because they really want the shiney, as far as I'm concerned they deserve it. They have earned it.
That said, I recently accidentally stumbled upon a profitable area, and it seems that was all it took. Now the siren call of the phat lewtz has got me hooked again. All I can say about that is wow, these guys are right it really is that easy to make a ton of inf.
Game and RL are tied.
Plain and simple.
If u can afford 8 accounts, aka 120 usd a month, you can afford to be 8 x times luckier that the average, ingame.
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It is superior labor and it doesnt take professional "Marketeers" to make the world go round. I have already given one blatant reason why producing new inf or drops is more intensive labor (superior) and the others are not very difficult to understand either. If you missed it, shame on you. I see no way of viewing it in any other logical fashion outside of blatantly deceiving myself.
Nice strawman by the way; did you actually want a reply to that?
Thats it for me, i derailed Fulmens thread quite enough by replying to you in defense of my posts. We must agree to disagree. The continued personal insults against those who dont view the Market as you do, do not solve anything. I made my point, and defended it soundly.
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I have to come to Swell's defense here.
You are assigning a moral value in a place where there is none. That is the real strawman.
What you are saying is that the Farmer is morally or ethically superior because their labor produces a good.
Are you saying that the truck driver that picks the goods up from the farm and drives it to a processing plant is morally and ethically inferior to the famer since he is not producing any goods but is proffiting from the fruits of the farmer's labor?
How about the guy that works in the processing plant to remove the non-edible portions of the product and convert it into table food? He didn't create something from nothing. Is he morally inferior to the farmer?
How about the grocer that preserves and stores the finished food products that come from around the world so that you can just walk to the store and buy it. Is he morally inferior? He didn't produce any product either.
How about you? Are you morally inferior? You didn't put forth any effort to grow the food. You didn't do anything to process it into a useable final form, you didn't preserve it, you just went to the store, bought it, ate it, and turned it into manure but you think that only you and the grower preformed any real service and are there for morally superior.
Ridiculous.
The market has many of the same people as the above. marketeers are the games stock brokers and bankers.
Salvage farmers are the games farmers and if you want the devs opinions on farming see the recent posts on MA and other exploitive behavior. Farmers are not morally superior here they are one of the problems if you read between the lines (and sometimes when you don't) in the devs posts.
I'm a crafter and a marketeer. I provide labor and a service to the rest of the players in the game.
I took MY TIME and MY INFLUENCE to memorize common IO recipies. That means I can craft IOs at 1/2 the crafting cost that others have to pay. It also means that I don't have to pay for a recipe.
I pay going rate for salvage from the farmers. I craft an IO and I list it for the (costs of the salvage + my crafting cost + market fees) * 1.10 for a 10 percent profit. This is more than 50% less than someone who hasn't taken the time or made the effort to memorize the recipe would have to pay to make it for themselves and they don't even have to take the time to put in a bid for salvage or run to a university and craft it. They can put up a bid of exactly what I said above and if one of my IOs is in the market that transaction will complete.
He gets a cheaper IO than he could make himself with no effort on his part more than plunking down a bid at the market.
I make a profit. I've made over a billion influence since I9 doing nothing but that. (I also craft and sell my own drops, commons are not my only source of income.)
As far as selling when I'm off line, why yes I do. Why should only people that live in the Central Time Zone have a chance to buy my less expensive IOs? I play on Justice so do a lot of Aussies. Right before I go to bed at night I craft up a bunch of IOs and put them on the market. I come back the next day they have all sold. Sure some of them were purchased by Night Owls in the U.S.A. but Ausssies, Brits, Koreans, or any other European or Asian players that are awake when I am sleeping have the same opportunity to get cheap IOs from me that anyone else in the U.S.A. does.
tl:dr version - you can take your morally superior/work superior point of view and stuff it.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I knew what I was getting into when I made the initial post. The sad thing is, my initial message of...
"Yall really should stop insulting people who dont use the Market heavily to line their pockets"
...was completely lost because one guy wanted me to expand on how I view and use the market. I should have ignored him and saved everyone the trouble of reading through our ridiculous argument. For that, I apologize. I certainly dont apologize for my opinion. I will always feel that people who are producing the good are more necessary than people who "move" or make "income" from the good. I dont see or understand how anyone could think otherwise.
Swell, I will just say one last thing: I am NOT anti-market in the slightest. I use the market just as much as heavily invested marketeers. I am simply someone who understands why so many people hate the market and why the prevailing attitude (the attitude you display in every one of your posts) hinders the goal of getting more people involved in the market. That is all. If you feel the need to keep attacking me, do it through PM and save these fine folks the trouble of reading your nonsense.
Nethergoat, I am in complete agreement with you. It could easily be argued that without the initial good/product/drop the "white collar" worker would have no job at all. That is beside the point, however, when determining that both producer and marketeer make for a better system than just a producer who markets his own goods.
Great analogy, even if I disagree with the definitive statement that the system wouldnt work without the white collar worker.
A money surplus is not problematic; an severely uneven money surplus might be. Nobody likes being the loser.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.