[ QUOTE ]
A Necro Mastermind turned hero could excuse himself by saying that he is raising people who have done wrong and are bound to servitude for their atrocities.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly my character's case. He has bound some of the souls of the damned and uses them to do his bidding. He feels no one should mourn for them since they damned themselves through their own actions and therefore anything he does with them is not half as bad as whatever punishments await them in the netherworld. They may, in fact, actually do some good.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I think what Munkilord is saying is particularly apt.
Particularly that last sentence:
" To them the ends justify the means."
Keep in mind that, though we may be classified as heroes; what heroism means to each of us can be drastically different.
Let's also remember that not all powers are wholly controlled.
A zombie MM I had at CoV's launch wasn't in control of her power at all - where ever she walked, the dead rose; always protecting her for reasons beyond her understanding.
Someone else might deliberately summon the corpses of the villains they kill - what better form of poetic justice than turning a great evil against another great evil?
Ultimately - Zombie summoning is of course distasteful - but that doesn't preclude heroic acts with such a power. I mean hell, we can be "heroes" despite setting people on fire, draining parts of their soul, shattering their minds, electrocuting them cutting them to ribbons... etc...
I think if we can horrifically mangle someone's mind, body or soul, we're allowed to resurrect their corpse and send it against more minions of evil >.>
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
Who the hell says a zombie MM can't be good? It's a frigging game not real life.
I feel ya, dude. Just ignore anyone who tells ya to RP differently based on "logic".
[ QUOTE ]
Do enough Evil Acts and you're not allowed in Paragon anymore (You become a villain under the new system) If you agree that the act of raising and using corpses is an evil act then you agree that to do so repeatedly will eventually earn you the enmity of Paragon City, and a boot to the Rogue Isles (As per the alignment system set up)
[/ QUOTE ]
There are far more ways to justify summoning the dead to fight for the cause of righteousness than there are to justify "arresting" someone with a flamethrower.
The ignorant populace would definitely make a stink about a necro hero, but the people giving out the IDs shouldn't have a problem with them when they already have an entire brigade of Longbow wackjobs incinerating and blowing up criminals without any discretion.
Infatum on Virtueverse
[ QUOTE ]
I think if we can horrifically mangle someone's mind, body or soul, we're allowed to resurrect their corpse and send it against more minions of evil >.>
[/ QUOTE ]
John Constantine (Hellblazer) once raised a group of murder victims as zombies to attack their murderer.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
Might be a good place to bring up a side Topic. Which MM's would be most acceptable to the public at large?
Top of my list would be Bots. The public could easily accept a small army of robots fighting crime. Machines have no inherant negative stigma and <in their own metallic way> are sort of cute.
Next would be Mercs. A quick rework of concept, some spiffy new uniforms, and next thing you know you have a rapid reaction force to augment the city's own.
A bit of a toss up on spots 3 and 4. I would give the edge to Ninjas simply because quite a bit of effort has gone into romanticizing Ninjas and turning them into heroes. Thugs would be a very close follower due to the "Robin Hood" effect.
Last would be Zombies. As mentioned above, it's very hard to convince the public that anyone who makes dead bodies get up and walk, for whatever reason, is a good guy. Not to mention the smell.
JUst my opinion. Yours?
[/ QUOTE ]
I generally agree here.
I'd say Mercs and Bots could be tied though. I don't think citizens would have much trouble with a group of retired soldiers (for example) deciding that they can still be of use fighting crime; and robots as you say, aren't really stigmatized. Heck, you might get some fantastic publicity.
"HOLY CRAP! ROBOTS!" - Paragon City Exclaims!
Ninja are a pretty neutral bunch to begin with honestly. But they are sneaky, and people tend not to trust sneaky even if it's on their side.
Thugs to me strike me as a "Neighborhood Gang" type group. That is - they started as a typical street gang, but found themselves constantly fighting bigger gangs, like the Hellions and Skulls. Eventually they start to think of that as their real job, and begin leaving petty crime behind; keeping their former gang swagger, but acting almost like a neighborhood militia. (Of course Thugs at the very top are just *very* experienced.)
Fun thing: I think Hero MMs have far more reason to give their pets individualistic names than Villain MMs. Villain MMs, to me, strike me as the sort to toss hordes at their opponents until they drop. Any losses are just expected casualties.
A Heroic MM probably goes out of their way to safeguard their pets (if they're living humans, or even sentient AI bots); making it more likely (in a story sense) that everyone makes it home.
The one power I'm questioning (and I admit, I have not used this power; I'm going off the description) is Traps/Detonator.
I think they'll need to replace that one or something if a MM goes Hero; because I cannot see blowing up your pets (other than Bots/Zombies of course) for a hero. (The description says sentient creatures attempt to drop the bomb and run, but 'the fuse is short...' which is decidedly unheroic, letting your people blow up)
Maybe that line is just an aside though, and the pets don't blow themselves up - I'm not high enough to use it yet; it just doesn't sound good.
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
[ QUOTE ]
The Punisher and Jack Bauer do many questionable things for the sake of good. To them the ends justify the means.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jack Bauer is a God!!~
Sorry couldn't help it!
If its broke, don't fix it... I like the chaos!
[ QUOTE ]
Fun thing: I think Hero MMs have far more reason to give their pets individualistic names than Villain MMs. Villain MMs, to me, strike me as the sort to toss hordes at their opponents until they drop. Any losses are just expected casualties.
[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on the type of villain. Not all villains are insane madmen who execute their own minions for putting too much sugar in their coffee. That's a very one-dimensional view of villainy.
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A Heroic MM probably goes out of their way to safeguard their pets
[/ QUOTE ]
A villain may too.
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The one power I'm questioning (and I admit, I have not used this power; I'm going off the description) is Traps/Detonator.
I think they'll need to replace that one or something if a MM goes Hero; because I cannot see blowing up your pets (other than Bots/Zombies of course) for a hero.
[/ QUOTE ]
What if the pet is doing is willingly knowing the risks, but believing it worth it. And since you can "resummon" it's safe to assume that pet just had a quick trip via the medical reclimator and is now ready to come back to service.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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<qr>
Um, they could be the bodies of former purse snatchers (or any criminal) that are trying to redeem their souls and work their way out of hell.
They could be the bodies of people that bequeathed their body to science when they died.
If I'm to believe a hero can call upon the dark netherworld to defend their team mates, then I can believe a zombie mastermind can be a hero too.
We use Shivians as heroes and they got dead people floating in them. They are event vulnerable to undead focused attack.
[ QUOTE ]
<qr>
Um, they could be the bodies of former purse snatchers (or any criminal) that are trying to redeem their souls and work their way out of hell.
[/ QUOTE ]
Offering the damned a chance at redemption sounds like a pretty heroic thing to do.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
We use Shivians as heroes and they got dead people floating in them. They are event vulnerable to undead focused attack.
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone who uses Shivans will now be forced to become a villain. It's obviously an evil act.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
[
The one power I'm questioning (and I admit, I have not used this power; I'm going off the description) is Traps/Detonator.
I think they'll need to replace that one or something if a MM goes Hero; because I cannot see blowing up your pets (other than Bots/Zombies of course) for a hero. (The description says sentient creatures attempt to drop the bomb and run, but 'the fuse is short...' which is decidedly unheroic, letting your people blow up)
Maybe that line is just an aside though, and the pets don't blow themselves up - I'm not high enough to use it yet; it just doesn't sound good.
[/ QUOTE ]
I could see Ninjas using it. And, yes, pet goes boom.
Since Ninjas are portrayed as having an honor code that has them doing whatever it takes to complete their assignment, self destruct isn't too far fetched. It's sort of a grandiose version of the cyanide tooth.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Punisher and Jack Bauer do many questionable things for the sake of good. To them the ends justify the means.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jack Bauer is a God!!~
Sorry couldn't help it!
[/ QUOTE ] Jack Bauer is a god! Couldn't agree more. Did you watch it last night?
@Smurch - Oh I'm not denying some of those kinds of villains exist.
Not all villains are heartless for instance - heck one of mine is a neo-Soviet revolutionary who's purpose is largely to make lief better for the people of the Rogue Isles by attempting to tear Arachnos down from within.
But I'd say at large, you're looking at far more villains who'd gladly toss away lives to achieve a goal, while few heroes would (though certainly some would; depending on their actual role. Some black-ops government agents might for instance.)
The bomb thing though... I have an immensely tough time buying that one. I see a heroic MM as making sure that an y explosives they use are relatively safe to handle - which means that the fuse is generally going to offer time to escape. A villain might not care - they might use cheap explosives, or use a low timer because they figure it'll get more enemies and the sacrifice is worth it - or even have voluntary suicide bombers...
I can't see a hero doing that, not in any but the most extreme of circumstances. Like - against Hro'Dotz? I could see that.
Stopping a relatively small scale Crey plot? I can't see it.
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
lolrp
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lolrp
[/ QUOTE ] I can't argue.
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Even if the zombie gave consent?
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A Zombie cannot give consent if it's a zombie based on the game's definition thereof. Since it's a mindless puppet being used by the Mastermind.
If the Zombie -were- to give consent it would be solely due to the Necromancer -forcing- it to say so.
-Rachel-
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Not necessarily. Think of it as the ultimate organ donation. They're a licensed necromantic resource after death, having signed consent forms in life.
(And as for dark... I've seen plenty of examples to get around the whole "netherworld" thing, like a bot/dark who was sending out swarms of nanobots that appeared as a dark cloud.)
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If the latter is true, however, then zombies would likely do most of our menial labor. From digging ditches to fetching water and building materials.
-Rachel-
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this has nothing to do with the discussion, but I think this movie would interest you in that aspect of zombie thinking.
you should rent it or buy it immediately. 
Edit: This is what I get for posting before I read the whole thread! I'm late to the party as usual... lol
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But I'd say at large, you're looking at far more villains who'd gladly toss away lives to achieve a goal,
[/ QUOTE ]
Based on what, exactly?
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I can't see a hero doing that, not in any but the most extreme of circumstances. Like - against Hro'Dotz? I could see that.
Stopping a relatively small scale Crey plot? I can't see it.
[/ QUOTE ]
The great thing is, as a player, you decide when to use that power. So you can certainly use it only in situations that you think are appropriate, RP-wise. Or even skip it entirely. It never struck me as anything but an "oh sh!" power anyways.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why some people claim that certain things can't ever be seen as good. A common complaint I see is the concept of a Necromancer mastermind doing good deeds but who is to say that all necromancers are evil or cannot be redeemed? What if the person is a scientist who has managed to learn the secret of bringing the dead back to life? This same scientist has decided to dedicate his research to reviving the dead in order to combat crime.
His view of the death is that the person who used to inhabit the body are long gone and now the corpse can be used in order to protect those who are still living. Changing the story around, you can even use the same concept with a magical character. In reality it's the same concept as a demon summoner forcing demons to fight against their own kind.
[/ QUOTE ] Its bad for the following reasons. Resident Evils- Zero, 1, 2, 3, CV. Dawn of the Dead, Day of the Dead, Shaun of the Dead, Thriller, Night of the Living Dead, Land of the Dead, Diary of the Dead. Basically nothing good will ever come from zombies I dont care how you role play it. I will find a way its going to be bad.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
My zombie MM is a resurrected corpse himself and only wants vengeance on the person who... did certain unspeakable acts to his body after death. His whole background revolves around him getting together some of his buddies to return the favor.
Now granted, he's not really hero material. But couldn't a Necromancy Mastermind who WAS a zombie leading other like-minded zombies feasibly be a hero?
[/ QUOTE ]
There is a similar story for my necro/pain Mastermind, Corpsebringer. He's a zombie, who gathered other zombies, to take out Recluse as revenge for having him killed, and take over Arachnos.
Bookeeper Jay and Perfect Pain.
Get out of the thread. If this is a discussion about how people handle the RP aspects of a character and you don't RP, don't care to RP, and hold people who do RP in contempt or disdain (LoLRP) then you've nothing to add to the discussion.
To everyone else. I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)
Yes. Anti-Heroes. Vigilantes. Etc. True hero beloved by the community raising the dead as puppets: No.
If you RP your Zombie mastermind as having zombies that still have the spirits they had in life, being redeemed in death: That's not a true Zombie. YOu're skirting the borders on undead, which can be accepted by a community.
But meat puppets made from the flesh of loved ones is no different than Vahzilok's toys.
Mind + Soul = Undead with redemption
Mindless + Soulless = Meat Puppet.
-Rachel-
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To everyone else. I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll give you a few, including the repeat of one above:
- Person volunteers. People give their bodies to science, after all. Why not voluntarily sign something before death saying they're up for reanimation by a hero to be used as such?
- Illusion. Kind of a cop out, perhaps. But similar to the Batman-esque "What would cause fear in those I face" - someone who's big on zombie movies growing up may project "zombies" for the psychological effect.
- Robotics/animatics. For the same reason as above. They're not "really" Zombies, but are shaped that way for effect.
Just off the top of my head. The first is closer to the "strictest" definition, perhaps, but all would explain a hero "summoning zombies."
Might be a good place to bring up a side Topic. Which MM's would be most acceptable to the public at large?
Top of my list would be Bots. The public could easily accept a small army of robots fighting crime. Machines have no inherant negative stigma and <in their own metallic way> are sort of cute.
Next would be Mercs. A quick rework of concept, some spiffy new uniforms, and next thing you know you have a rapid reaction force to augment the city's own.
A bit of a toss up on spots 3 and 4. I would give the edge to Ninjas simply because quite a bit of effort has gone into romanticizing Ninjas and turning them into heroes. Thugs would be a very close follower due to the "Robin Hood" effect.
Last would be Zombies. As mentioned above, it's very hard to convince the public that anyone who makes dead bodies get up and walk, for whatever reason, is a good guy. Not to mention the smell.
JUst my opinion. Yours?
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.