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To everyone else. I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll give you a few, including the repeat of one above:
- Person volunteers. People give their bodies to science, after all. Why not voluntarily sign something before death saying they're up for reanimation by a hero to be used as such?
- Illusion. Kind of a cop out, perhaps. But similar to the Batman-esque "What would cause fear in those I face" - someone who's big on zombie movies growing up may project "zombies" for the psychological effect.
- Robotics/animatics. For the same reason as above. They're not "really" Zombies, but are shaped that way for effect.
Just off the top of my head. The first is closer to the "strictest" definition, perhaps, but all would explain a hero "summoning zombies."
[/ QUOTE ]
And all of those are perfectly logical examples of something that -could- be accepted by the community.
Though you're right. I should've put the first one as an addendum. People would likely be -somewhat- less upset if people were giving their consent before death.
Of course, then you get into the same arguments of Stem Cells from the umbilical cord being decried as evil. And i do seem to recall there was a huge scare over organ donations from people who -didn't- sign up for it... Still. It'd be far more socially acceptable than raising a random corpse from a graveyard without permission.
-Rachel-
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The Punisher and Jack Bauer do many questionable things for the sake of good. To them the ends justify the means.
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Jack Bauer is a God!!~
Sorry couldn't help it!
[/ QUOTE ] Jack Bauer is a god! Couldn't agree more. Did you watch it last night?
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Of course... I just hate getting left hanging like that though! 
If its broke, don't fix it... I like the chaos!
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Killing is a horrible and deplorable act for a hero to commit. You're ending someone's life. It creates pain in the form of remorse (Typically) for the hero, pain for the victim's family, and a total lack of feeling in the Victim. But tampering with and damaging someone's eternal aspect is a -far- more heinous act. As it damages them eternally.
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
Killing is a tool. It's a very powerful tool with a very narrow range of application, and it's easy to overuse, but it no more inherently good or evil then any other tool. The morality of the act is determined by the reasons behind it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Killing is wrong. Killing is bad. Killing is only socially acceptable when it is the lesser of two evils. Kill one man before he kills a thousand. The act itself is still evil, but it's a lesser evil.
Killing is the gun that fires puppies.
-Rachel-
It should be pointed out that not everyone that gains the 'Hero of the City' badge is the kind that would stand in front of City Hall and get keys to the City. We already have several Heroes that would, if the civilian AI were better, would terrify the Citizens of Paragon as much as the Criminals. Hero Necro would just be an extension of that.
At that point, they've done great things, but they want no reward, because it's all penance for thier past crimes, or they realize that the populous wouldn't be willing to give out the rewards, based on horrific appearance, frightening aura, or the scabrous corpses hanging around.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
[ QUOTE ]
I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, the problem here is that you're assuming that they care what the community thinks. As long as they're doing what they feel is right and not doing physical harm to the innocent, many heroes out there could care less about what people think about them. 
Sure, people have already made mention of The Punisher. How about other, more widely-known characters... like Wolverine? You think he gives a crap what the purse-snatching victim thinks of his choice to impale her assailant with 12" metal spikes protruding from his fist? In his mind, he saw a helpless woman being mugged and made sure the scumbag wouldn't do it again.
Granted, your opinion is yours, and I'm not trying to change it. I'm sure you could excellently RP as someone who hates having to work with a Necro MM on a team.
But at the same time, do you really think they, who command legions of the damned, give a rat's patoot what you think about them? 
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
-----
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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And that's where roleplay comes in.
Do I think a 'true' zombie mastermind could ever be regarded as a true hero: Never.
Do I think that through interesting roleplay involving vast amounts of explaining away personal evil can make a 'zombie' mastermind into a true hero: Yes
Do I think a 'true' zombie mastermind could do heroic things as an anti-hero or vigilante, scorned by the city for their methods: Yes.
I don't have problems with zombie masterminds playing the hero. I'd have problems with a 'True' necro mastermind standing in front of city hall being given the key to the city. From an in-character standpoint it's logically hollow.
-Rachel-
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Killing is a horrible and deplorable act for a hero to commit. You're ending someone's life. It creates pain in the form of remorse (Typically) for the hero, pain for the victim's family, and a total lack of feeling in the Victim. But tampering with and damaging someone's eternal aspect is a -far- more heinous act. As it damages them eternally.
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
Killing is a tool. It's a very powerful tool with a very narrow range of application, and it's easy to overuse, but it no more inherently good or evil then any other tool. The morality of the act is determined by the reasons behind it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Killing is wrong. Killing is bad. Killing is only socially acceptable when it is the lesser of two evils. Kill one man before he kills a thousand. The act itself is still evil, but it's a lesser evil.
Killing is the gun that fires puppies.
-Rachel-
[/ QUOTE ]
We can get into a long argument here....
*Murder* is evil. There's a difference between that and killing - and there's usually a line, both socially and with personal morals (or the lack of them) that defines when one turns into another. Even the proper translation of the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder," not kill.
A police officer who kills, say, a hostage taker, gunman, etc. in the line of duty is not performing an evil act. Potentially a necessary act - and one that's investigated heavily by the department, and will weigh heavily on most who end up having to do so - but is not, by definition, an evil act.
If someone breaks into my home and acts in a manner which makes me believe my life or the life of my loved ones is at risk, I have full right to kill in my own defense, or in theirs. This is not an evil act.
Still, all those fall under "lesser of two evils," I suppose. So how about this -
The soldier who hops on a grenade or rushes a bunker. He has killed - both the enemy, most likely, and himself. It is, after all, a "kill." Suicide, in fact, which for some religions has far more weight to it as far as "evil." But is it evil?
Two groups of soldiers face each other on a battlefield. They will quite definitely kill each other. Are they committing evil? Is just one group? One's there to "end a threat," the other's there to defend their homeland. Which group is killing as the "lesser evil?"
How about the loved ones who are faced with a choice of leaving someone with no hope of recovery in a hospital, hooked up to machines, potentially for decades, or having them unhooked - which most certainly kills the person? You can fudge it a bit by saying "Well, they're already dead, really," but the people are still making a conscious choice to end the life of another - a strict definition of killing. Is that an evil act?
I say again. Murder is evil. Killing is not, on its own. Context gives the label of "Acceptable" or "Evil."
Hm. I'm thinking there may be a communications breakdown somewhere. The way I'm reading your posts, it seems like you're arguing that Necro Masterminds shouldn't be allowed to cross over when Going Rogue hits. Is this a mistake on my part?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
[ QUOTE ]
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I honestly cannot see a way for a Zombie Mastermind to be a true hero and hailed as such by the community (Level 50: Hero of the City)
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, the problem here is that you're assuming that they care what the community thinks. As long as they're doing what they feel is right and not doing physical harm to the innocent, many heroes out there could care less about what people think about them.
Sure, people have already made mention of The Punisher. How about other, more widely-known characters... like Wolverine? You think he gives a crap what the purse-snatching victim thinks of his choice to impale her assailant with 12" metal spikes protruding from his fist? In his mind, he saw a helpless woman being mugged and made sure the scumbag wouldn't do it again.
Granted, your opinion is yours, and I'm not trying to change it. I'm sure you could excellently RP as someone who hates having to work with a Necro MM on a team.
But at the same time, do you really think they, who command legions of the damned, give a rat's patoot what you think about them?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's less what -they- think about what the community thinks and more how the community thinks and how -they- react to it.
Okay. Let's assume for the sake of argument you're the Punisher in Paragon City. In Paragon noone is ever allowed to Kill an NPC, basically. You 'defeat' foes with a flamethrower or machinegun or whatever. At least by the game's coding and story.
So you RP that your character is going around with a pile of guns slaughtering every hellion he finds. Fine by me.
But there would be (based on the world's storyline) -consequences- for those actions. If you ignore those consequences then you break the immersion. So when the mass-murdering Punisher in Paragon City gets caught he's tried as a Villain. He denied all those criminals their right to fair trial before their peers.
If you Roleplay, instead, that he's a friend of the commissioner and regularly hangs out with Statesman: You're breaking immersion.
If you play a Zombie Necro Mastermind who doesn't care what others think: Wonderful! But as a player keep up the immersion by having the populace not -love- your character.
I've run into characters with murderer backgrounds who explode their foes with fire. And oh, by the way, they're also Statesman's girlfriend. Or Sister Psyche's secret lover.
I can deal with anti-heroes. I can't deal with players breaking verisimilitude because the game doesn't fit their character.
-Rachel-
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Hm. I'm thinking there may be a communications breakdown somewhere. The way I'm reading your posts, it seems like you're arguing that Necro Masterminds shouldn't be allowed to cross over when Going Rogue hits. Is this a mistake on my part?
[/ QUOTE ]
Very much a mistake!
There's plenty of ways to Roleplay a Heroic Necro Mastermind in the CoH. In Paragon. Illusions, mutated manservants, lepers, robots made to look like zombies, damned souls being given a second chance at redemption.
There's plenty of ways to RP an anti-hero Necro Mastermind in the CoH.
But when you play an Anti-Hero and play it as a straight hero you break Verisimilitude. That's where I have issues.
-Rachel-
My father spent 2 years battling esophagial cancer. They finally got him into surgery to remove the thing. For two months he was in an ICU. TWO MONTHS he was barely holding on.
I'm the one that told the doctors to pull the plug when the Resident explained that if he stayed on the respirator for any longer he might never get off it. He had to struggle on alone or he'd spend whatever was left of his life breathing through a tube. The Doc gave me a 70/30 chance for death/life or a 90/10 otherwise.
Fifteen minutes after my father died of end-stage renal failure brought on by cessation of the machines his surgeon burst through the door and nearly strangled the resident. Then shouted that my father would have been perfectly fine if his medication were switched.
He didn't know I hadn't left yet.
Killing is evil. Even when it's for what you believe is a good cause.
-Rachel-
PS: Bill. You've got too many Private Messages for me to send you anything.
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Hm. I'm thinking there may be a communications breakdown somewhere. The way I'm reading your posts, it seems like you're arguing that Necro Masterminds shouldn't be allowed to cross over when Going Rogue hits. Is this a mistake on my part?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to jump back in on this one. Since I think I had a small part in where this has all started.
I have no problem with Necro MM's crossing over. I'm kind of waiting to do it with my own. In fact I don't see any practical way that the Devs could prevent it without another MA-esque snit starting up.
My original post was just looking at things from a storytelling POV. The majority of the people in the world strongly oppose the concept of Necromancy. Therefore, it would be difficult for a Zombie MM to gain public approval. Through consistant acts of heroism the MM might gain the <grudging> respect of city officials and other Heroes but Jane and John Q Public are just never really going to accept rotting corpses.
Game wise, bring them on. The thought of Zombies lurching through Steel Canyon is an amusing mental image.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
<QR>
Last member of a family horribly slaughtered by some fiendish villain, who in his anguish over the death of everyone he's ever known learns how to reanimate corpses (or it's their mutant ability, or the spirits of his family can't pass on until they're avenged) and does this with the bodies of his family.
No "disrespect to the living relatives" as you are the only living relative.
Sure, you're using dark powers, but there are plenty of heroes who do that already.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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That should help clear some of this then. When you talk about Necromancy being inherently evil, I had gotten the impression that it's irredeemable. As far as Villains switching sides none of them have the ability to become the well loved Captain America types. Too many people will remember their violent crimes and their attempts at world domination.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
[ QUOTE ]
If you RP your Zombie mastermind as having zombies that still have the spirits they had in life, being redeemed in death: That's not a true Zombie. YOu're skirting the borders on undead, which can be accepted by a community.
But meat puppets made from the flesh of loved ones is no different than Vahzilok's toys.
Mind + Soul = Undead with redemption
Mindless + Soulless = Meat Puppet.
-Rachel-
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But we know that the zombies in the MM Necromancy set DO have souls and are not souless puppets. Otherwise, the Soul Extraction power wouldn't exist.
"Soul Extraction: You can extract the soul from one of your defeated undead henchmen and summon its spectral essence to do your bidding."
The descriptions on the extracted souls describe them as being "torn for their bodies".
So since officially speaking MM Zombies have souls, then they mitigate all your concerns about zombie summoning heroes, right? Good. Glad that's settled.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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That's actually something that's -always- upset me. Take a look at these powers...
Howling Twilight
Activating this power channels the power of the Netherworld to weaken your foes, in an attempt to revive all nearby fallen allies. You must stand near your defeated allies to revive them, then select a foe. The selected foe and all nearby foes will be Slowed, Disoriented, and drained of some life. Revived allies will have full Hit Points and Endurance and will suffer no ill effects and are left protected from XP Debt for 20 seconds
Twilight Grasp
You channel Negative Energy from the Netherworld through yourself to a targeted foe. Twilight Grasp drains the power from that target and slowly transfers it to you and all nearby allies. The targeted foe's chance to hit and damage are reduced, while you and your nearby allies are healed.
Despite the description, the healing is instantaneous, not gradual. Furthermore, the description doesn't mention that this power also debuffs its target's health Regeneration rate.
The Mastermind version of Twilight Grasp has half the healing radius of the others.
Siphon Life
You tap the power of the Netherworld and create a life transferring conduit between a foe and yourself. This will transfer Hit Points from your enemy to yourself. Foes siphoned in this manner have their chance to hit reduced.
Dark Regeneration
You can tap the dark essence of the Netherworld to drain a small amount of life from all enemies nearby, thus healing yourself. The more foes affected, the more you will be healed.
None of them say ANYTHING about sucking soul... Untill you get to these three.
Soul Transfer
Should you fall in battle, you can perform a Soul Transfer, sucking the life force of all foes around you to bring yourself back from the brink of death. The more foes nearby, the more life is restored to you. Drained foes are left Disoriented. The dark effects of this Soul Transfer will actually leave you invulnerable for a brief time, and protected from XP Debt for 20 seconds. There must be at least one foe nearby to fuel the transfer and revive yourself.
Soul Drain
Using this power, you can drain the essence of all nearby foes' souls, thus increasing your own strength. Each affected foe will lose some Hit Points and add to your Damage and chance to hit.
Dark Consumption
The dark power of the Netherworld allows you to tap the essence of your foe's soul and transfer it to yourself. This will drain the Hit Points of your enemy and add to your Endurance.
And those right there are the reasons I can't bring myself to take a Dark/Dark scrapper hero -seriously-.
Killing is a horrible and deplorable act for a hero to commit. You're ending someone's life. It creates pain in the form of remorse (Typically) for the hero, pain for the victim's family, and a total lack of feeling in the Victim.
But tampering with and damaging someone's eternal aspect is a -far- more heinous act. As it damages them eternally.
-Rachel-
[/ QUOTE ]
It never says your destroying their soul. And who's to say a soul can't heal on it's own?
Besides, it's easy to kill in CoH and get away with it. Look, the badguys are trying to kill me. So you kill them in self-defense.
But note the difference, between just going up to a criminal and slicing away, than going up to them, telling them to stop, then they try to kill you.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Pssssssssst! >.>
You can't kill in CoH. According to the story you always arrest the baddies. No matter how violently you arrest them, or how mangled their bodies ragdoll.
But if you want to ROLEPLAY killing: Fine! But roleplay the consequences, too. Or you're breaking versimilitude.
And whether a soul can heal or not damaging it is damaging someone's eternal essence... And that's just plain wrong! =-P
-Rachel-
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But note the difference, between just going up to a criminal and slicing away, than going up to them, telling them to stop, then they try to kill you.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Pick up the gun."
"I don't wanna pick it up, Mister, you'll shoot me."
"Pick up the gun."
"Mister, I don't want no trouble. I just came downtown here to get some hard rock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble, Mister."
"Pick up the gun."
(He picks it up. Three shots ring out.)
"You all saw him - he had a gun."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
But if you want to ROLEPLAY killing: Fine! But roleplay the consequences, too. Or you're breaking versimilitude.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then what happens?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
And whether a soul can heal or not damaging it is damaging someone's eternal essence... And that's just plain wrong! =-P
[/ QUOTE ]
Guess you better get on all those Dark Blast defenders with Life Drain. Best round em up and tell them all that they're all just plain wrong :P
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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[ QUOTE ]
But when you play an Anti-Hero and play it as a straight hero you break Verisimilitude.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then what happens?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But when you play an Anti-Hero and play it as a straight hero you break Verisimilitude.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then what happens?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing because its just a game?
[ QUOTE ]
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But when you play an Anti-Hero and play it as a straight hero you break Verisimilitude.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then what happens?
[/ QUOTE ]
Someone roleplaying as Chuck Norris roundhouse kicks you in the head.
Twice if you double-post.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
-----
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But when you play an Anti-Hero and play it as a straight hero you break Verisimilitude.
[/ QUOTE ]
And then what happens?
[/ QUOTE ]
Someone roleplaying as Chuck Norris roundhouse kicks you in the head.
Twice if you double-post.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wasn't a double post. Was the same response to TWO SEPARATE POSTS. (really!)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
Killing is a horrible and deplorable act for a hero to commit. You're ending someone's life. It creates pain in the form of remorse (Typically) for the hero, pain for the victim's family, and a total lack of feeling in the Victim. But tampering with and damaging someone's eternal aspect is a -far- more heinous act. As it damages them eternally.
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
Killing is a tool. It's a very powerful tool with a very narrow range of application, and it's easy to overuse, but it no more inherently good or evil then any other tool. The morality of the act is determined by the reasons behind it.