There needs to be player/dev PvP dialogue.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-05-14 17:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'll close with a line I've come to adopt when discussing this subject: Spider-Man don't have no travel suppression!
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Funny, every time I see a blow land on him he gets knocked into a wall or his webbing is cut and he falls on his butt. Not much traveling happening when one is sitting on one's butt rubbing one's half-dazed head making wry comments on how surprisingly strong/quick one's opponent is. In that regard, Spidey is the posterboy argument *for* travel suppression. It would be hard to think of a worse example for the point you want to make.
Besides, webbing is a slow travel power to begin with, laterally. It seems fast because of all the simultaneous vertical movement, but you don't really travel horizontally very fast, especially if you're not going to take advantage of a full 180 degree arc with each swing. If Spidey wanted to go the length of a city block and managed to web the top of a 20 story building to swing on, I could walk it faster. If anyone's seen a Foucault pendulum, you know that's true.
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Going Rogue expansion should let all AT's be on either side - PvP balanced
except for the lack of redside players
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Going Rogue expansion should let all AT's be on either side - PvP balanced
except for the lack of redside players
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Or the lack of blueside, if everyone swings to red.
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I applaud the effort but you aren't going to get much sympathy on the forums. Most of the forums goes are openly hostile to PvP and PvP players in general. The Dev's wont probably comment on PvP because it will be taken out of context OR people will theorize what they "really" ment. It would be a lose lose situation for the Dev team to comment on PvP right now. Really your best hope is to just wait and see...
I personally gave up on PvP in this game because of the reasons you presented. I would suggest you either get used to the new "balanced" PvP and Dev silence, because things don't look like they are going to change in the near future. The PvP front is bogged down with so much malice and vitrol that it is going to be a long time before anything gets done.
Also, going Rogue wont complete balance. Everyone will just play the normal hero teams with maybe a Fort or some stalkers thrown in.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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Going Rogue expansion should let all AT's be on either side - PvP balanced
except for the lack of redside players
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Or the lack of blueside, if everyone swings to red.
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They won't.
Gone into a PvP zone redside lately? Notice how 80% or more of the villians in the zone are Stalkers?
That's what blue side will look like. A whole lotta sitting around waiting for somebody to be visible.
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[u]I created this thread because any dev response to anything PvP is older than 2 months and is in closed threads.
Hardly conducive to discussion.[u]
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*cough* *cough* Thread started less than a month ago.
The PvP crowd took the sympathy I had for PvP in this game and crushed it and mangled it and rolled it up in a tight ball. They dribbled it down the street, bouncing it off doors, and kicked it in a river. After it dropped 50 feet down a waterfall, they fished my sympathy out of the river and pounded it with jackhammers until it was crushed into tiny flecks, then they each grabbed a handful of flecks and ate them and laughed and laughed and laughed.
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I applaud the effort but you aren't going to get much sympathy on the forums. Most of the forums goes are openly hostile to PvP and PvP players in general. The Dev's wont probably comment on PvP because it will be taken out of context OR people will theorize what they "really" ment. It would be a lose lose situation for the Dev team to comment on PvP right now.
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I haven't been able to say two words about PvP since sometime around I7 without it degenerating into a downward spiraling stupidfest. I made a very concerted effort to reverse that in I13 but after four straight days of being called an idiot for having an opinion (four days in which I voluntarily imposed a moratorium on responding to attacks), I gave up. Until that situation fundamentally changes, the forums in general and the PvP community as a whole is unlikely to have sufficient credibility to request meaningful changes, because open dialog is essentially impossible.
The irony is that I agree with many if not most of macskull's points, and in fact I was opposed to more than half of the dev changes for I13 for a variety of reasons, even if I was generally in agreement with the philosophy behind them, and I stated so publicly. I quickly lost the motivation to do much about it, though, and that wasn't the fault of the devs.
If I had any influence over the process, maybe 75% of the things on macskull's post wouldn't exist. But I don't, and I see no specific reason to stick my neck out to do so.
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Please keep these threads alive.
Post in both of them.
But also keep in mind that these are meant to be engaging discussions with the hopes of attracting developer attention to address, rethink, and hopefully change what has become PvP.
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I wish you luck. I really do. In an ideal world we'd have constructive back and forth dialogue. But at this point, I suspect a lot of the die-hard PvP community have either (a) left, (b) are spewing enough bile that nobody wants to listen, or (c) have given up.
I actually agree that there are numerous issues with the current PvP balance - but then I had many problems with PvP balance before the I13 changes.
Honestly I don't think what we have now is any worse. It's simply different. Mind, the fact that it's different makes it bad enough for some people.
It's kinda hard to tell how much of the ire from PvP players is because they genuinely think what we have now is broken, or because they're just unwilling to adapt or give the new system a shot.
Regarding travel suppression in particular, though...I screamed like a rabid animal when I first saw the patch notes back when I13 was on test. Having played extensively since, though...I honestly don't think the new suppression is that bad. Running battles are still fine, and you still CAN remain mobile - indeed I agree this gives meleers a fighting chance...annnnd before you say anything, my favourite PvP character was (and is) a blaster. There's plenty amiss with I13 PvP, but the new suppression rules aren't the game-killer they're made out to be.
They really need to do something about Teleport in PvP, though. That much I agree.
@Acyl
VIRTUE
Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
Red: Battery Acid, Obsolete, Bugfix
It'll be a nice day when people regard individuals as just that instead of representatives of some larger group that they may be a part of.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
G'luck on getting the devs to engage on dialog on this one.
PVP got flushed in I13 and my guess is going rogue and working the kinks from MA is going to consume all their time till after I17
PVP attracts Munchkins.
You got something against the vertically challenged now?
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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It'll be a nice day when people regard individuals as just that instead of representatives of some larger group that they may be a part of.
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It would - but that day isn't today. Like it or not, there does exist a general perception that the PvP crowd is an angry bunch of irrational ruffians who scream a lot.
This may not be true, but there's been enough vocal outcry around here by at least a few folks identifying themselves as PvPers. Indeed, there was at least one self-identified PvP player heckling Positron when he turned up during the 5th anniversary celebrations - at least one I know about, there were probably more.
It bears mentioning, however, that one stated intent of the I13 PvP changes was to encourage more people to PvP, beyond the...existing PvP clique, as it were.
I don't think that's worked, but there you go.
EDIT: Jeez, this is my 666th post! And it's in a PvP thread! Is this coincidence? I THINK NOT!!!!
@Acyl
VIRTUE
Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
Red: Battery Acid, Obsolete, Bugfix
Not exactly, I like a man who's head only comes up to my waist. But I mean a different kind of munchkin... The kind that made me ditch WoW. The kind that thinks going into the opposite side's zone and trash-talking everyone is 'roleplaying' and that one-shotting someone is 'meaningful PVP'. The kind that are willing to do ANYTHING to win, including cheating, running macro programs, and DDOS attacks to ensure that they are the 'best'
The kind of people who were mentioned as 'winners' in a particular thread that claimed that only people who are willing to do ANYTHING to win are truly 'winners', everyone else is destined to be a loser.
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You got something against the vertically challenged now?
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Explanation. I've been using that term since before I even got on the internet.
And now, reading that again... I have a new name for all the people complaining about the recent ticket mission cap. YAY! 
Jeez people. It's a joke! Lighten up!
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
actually, on MMO's there is a sharp dichotomy between 'minimaxers' and true munchkins.
Because of the limitations of MMO's, there is no true 'roleplaying' invested, despite what the perverts on Virtue try to tell you. POwergamers, or minimaxers, exist specifically to create the 'most' character.... in a way that is not deleterious to other players. They perhaps rule-monger and definitely minimax, but they are not INTENTIONALLY trying to ruin other's fun or engage in 'involuntary' pvp
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In gaming, a Munchkin is a player who plays what is intended to be a non-competitive game (usually a role-playing game) in an aggressively competitive manner.
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The only person your typical powergamer or minimaxer is competing against is themselves. HOW fast can I get a character to level 50? How tough of an enemy can I face by myself? How big of a group of enemies can I herd? How quickly can I do (X) content?
Munchkins, however, are the ones that compete against OTHERS, ruining their experience intentionally in an attempt to score 'points'. They are the ones that try to increase their 'kills' by cheating, or by harassing people.
and Munchkins overrun WoW.
In the end-
Powergamer=minimaxer
Munchkin=Harasser
It is possible to be both, but in general the munchkin is not trying to prove anything to themselves, They are simply trying to prove things to OTHER people to bolster their horribly low self-confidence.
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It'll be a nice day when people regard individuals as just that instead of representatives of some larger group that they may be a part of.
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The problem occurs, Reiraku, when only a few individuals who are part of the larger group seem to be different than the greater majority.
Whether it -is- a majority of PvPers or not, the vocal ones have smeared their effluvium all over the PvP community. And it's a heck of a lot of stink for the handful of vocal -good- PvPers to wash off with words.
-You- and several others are good sports and helpful mentors to would be PvPers. But the amount of bad ones has, historically, been either higher or more omnipresent.
-Rachel-
That's why I cheer every time PVP is crippled into complete uselessness 
It's munchkin-repellant.
I'd rather see the "bad seed" elements get removed than to see an aspect of the game ruined for the good ones that loved it.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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I'd rather see the "bad seed" elements get removed than to see an aspect of the game ruined for the good ones that loved it.
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Agreed, but I am not sure poisoning teenagers is legal.
Ah, but Frost, you don't see that they ARE Munchkins here. Because this game has PvP zones instead of PvP everywhere, they compete with others by having more "stuff" and more "awesome" characters than others. They aren't doing it just for them... if this was a single player game, they would have left a long time ago, because there is no one to show their massive E-Peen to.
There are actually examples of that in a few threads that I have posted in recently, people literally admitting that they play to have "better stuff" and "better toons" than others. That is their sole motivation by their own admission.
They aren't Self-Actualizing like in Maslow's Pyramid. They are just petty and get their kicks by showing off "stuff".
That's their PvP in a non-PvP game.
Hmmm...
I don't see it as much lately, but a while back, hanging out in RWZ or Cimmerora was invitation to have to listen to hordes of trash-talk by stalkers trying to 'convince' people to play zone pvp.
You couldn't simply turn combined dialogue off, since a good ship raid or ITF might contain an 'opposite side' element, so you were either forced to maintain strictly hero or villain teams, or listen to the constant barrage of ill-spelled insults from the TRUE munchkins.
think 'the barrens'
Hiya...
I just returned after a long hiatus.
I came back to team with friends and enjoy the hilarity that City of... always provides.
At one time I ran a pretty successful Villainous PvP SG on Infinity.
I pretty much quit the game because of the lack of attention to the imbalance of Red vs. Blue.
I would have to field just about the perfect team to hang with the Hero SGs. Whilst they could plug and play Emps, Kins, and whatever 4 Blasters that were lying around.
I know that the Devs have been making attempts to correct things. I know that in the entirety of PvP in this game that it has always been the red headed stepchild of CoH (wasn't there at launch, playing catch up ever since). I know that it cannot be an easy task. I applaud all the work that has kept this really fun game whirling along after 5 years. Thank you. Now, please work at returning fun to the PvP. Start by listening and talking to the practitioners.
I returned for the camaraderie, but only part of it is available to me.
What passes for PvP currently is abysmal.
Or even sub-abysmal.
I would much rather bang my head against the wall of imbalance that was PvP life before Issue 13 than roll with whatever you call this now. I do like that PPPs were finally addressed.
[u]I created this thread because any dev response to anything PvP is older than 2 months and is in closed threads.
Hardly conducive to discussion.[u]
As I am just returning to the game I hardly have any ground to stand on in regards to ranting. Thankfully, I have friends that are well equipped to do so.
Please read macskull's Open Letter to the Devs.
Please keep these threads alive.
Post in both of them.
But also keep in mind that these are meant to be engaging discussions with the hopes of attracting developer attention to address, rethink, and hopefully change what has become PvP.
I'll close with a line I've come to adopt when discussing this subject: Spider-Man don't have no travel suppression!
My good friend Bug You Too added: Wolverine don't have no diminishing returns on his healing power!