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Shout out to [name removed] on Guardian server who;
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I thought name-and-shame posts were against the forum rules?
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Shout out to [name removed] on Guardian server who;
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I thought name-and-shame posts were against the forum rules?
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It is, once you name a person it becomes a personal attack, direct violation of rule 2.
Dirges
The whole character control argument is total bs. I've been playing a blaster with SS for a few weeks now, and when I get SBed, it brings me up to the speed cap of about 78mph. I can still control my guy fine. I also have a decently high level grav/kin troller. IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
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The whole character control argument is total bs. I've been playing a blaster with SS for a few weeks now, and when I get SBed, it brings me up to the speed cap of about 78mph. I can still control my guy fine.
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Before I upgraded to a better computer, there were times when SB would make controlling my character very difficult. Moving too fast would sometimes cause FPS to drop to 10 or less, which means tapping in any given direction could be like teleporting into a group of enemies. So I can sympathise with control issues brought about by speed.
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I also have a decently high level grav/kin troller. IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
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I don't think anyone deserves to constantly ask. When I played my stone tank, I'd plod along happily without SB.
My Plant/Kin doesn't currently have SB and I don't believe I was planning on getting it with her. Or ID for that matter. I wouldn't necessarily expect other Kinetics characters to have it, either.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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The whole character control argument is total bs. I've been playing a blaster with SS for a few weeks now, and when I get SBed, it brings me up to the speed cap of about 78mph.
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Blasters have different requirements than, say, tankers.
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IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.
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IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.
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*stupid grin and looks over at his VG leader* I'd like to hear yall have a talk...it would be entertaining. I mean this in a good way towards you, because she must have a kin on every team.
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Shout out to DR. Janis on Guardian server who;
Is level 50
Has no SB...I repeat has no SB 
Reasons; "It doesnt fit into my purple set scheme" 
. "But I'm a fast healer" 
. Four team wipes later..."I'll go get my tank"....three team wipes later...."Mission is hard". Perfect example of a PLed Lazy kins with no SB. Mind you we had a Rock tank and fire scrapper on team...So there went the dps. Fulcrum workeds "only when it wants to". Horrible player.
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1) Calling out people on the forums is against the Rules of Conduct.
2) If the Stone Tank is having trouble keeping aggro and keeps team wiping, it's a team issue, not just the Kin.
3) Not sure what a purple IO'd build would do for a Kin...unless it's a Ill/Kin Controller.
4) Next time turn down the difficulty.
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IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.
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Do I NEED it on my stone tank? Absolutely not... I built my char with the idea that a kin wouldn't always be available and therefore have a good IO build setup that gives me +run and +rech to the point where I can get by without it. Is it nice when given, absolutely. While leveling did I always have the extra set bonuses I have now... and potentially needed a kin to manage everything on high performance teams. Yes I did at one point otherwise I couldn't guarantee I would hold everything.
Assuming every single stone tank in existence has both the knowledge and currency available to offset the penalties enough to not NEED SB otherwise they are a 'bad' player is just as bad as the people who claim that if you have sb and don't use it on every single person in the group at all times you are a 'bad'
player.
You can't have it both ways and claim that just because its your char and you build it your way doesn't make you bad as a kin, but then fault another class for doing the same. Particularly when it's a hell of a lot harder and more expensive to properly build a stone tank that doesn't need outside buffs than it is to either select and use sb, or don't.
Please keep in mind, I feel for the kins. They are demanded to give buffs and as a former defendaholic I fully understand what that is like. I am fully appreciative of them and always say thank you when they are able to fit sb for me into their attack cycle. I would never demand a kin buff me, or kick one just because they were in my group and either didn't have sb or didn't use it.
I'm so tired of hearing players claim its their "job" to give out SB...heals... or whatever. Their 'job' is to play their toon to the most fun for that player. Just because I have empathy on my toon, doesn't mean its my 'job' to do anything for you. Just as a kinetic's 'job' isn't purely to be around for YOUR personal booster. I hate when stone tanks invite me to the team purely to be their personal speed boost. Screw that. I'm not there FOR you, ever. Players should appreciate when another player boosts them at all. Its not their RIGHT to get it.
I know if I ever played with the OP.. not only would I NOT give him SB.. but I would tell everyone Iknew to be sure not to. I would never want to play with such a jerk.
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I'm so tired of hearing players claim its their "job" to give out SB...heals... or whatever. Their 'job' is to play their toon to the most fun for that player. Just because I have empathy on my toon, doesn't mean its my 'job' to do anything for you. Just as a kinetic's 'job' isn't purely to be around for YOUR personal booster. I hate when stone tanks invite me to the team purely to be their personal speed boost. Screw that. I'm not there FOR you, ever. Players should appreciate when another player boosts them at all. Its not their RIGHT to get it.
I know if I ever played with the OP.. not only would I NOT give him SB.. but I would tell everyone Iknew to be sure not to. I would never want to play with such a jerk.
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Did you misread my post or something because I didn't think I was saying that at all. In fact I was just saying I thought they were being a hypocrit for saying a stone tank was being a 'bad' player when they were mad at others in this very thread for calling them 'bad' when they didn't sb an entire group.
If you actually read my entire post I actually specifically said I was always appreciative when a kin gave me sb... never asked for it... and would never dream of kicking a kin who didn't have or use it.
I was gonna give this thread a total pass, and I did for a while, but I just played my Ill/Kin for the first time in a while, steamrolling through a LGTF. We had a Stone tank in the mix and he was very grateful for the SBs when it came his way, but never whined about not having it. He did remind me exactly once when it wore off the first time, but not again since.
My Ill/Kin is nearly def capped, can start (and finish) fights on 8-man teams, can tank w/ or w/o PA, is an AoE monster w/FS'ed Fireballs, etc, etc. And yet, I tried to dole out SB (among other buffs) whenever I could, esp. to the Stone tank. It was a non-stop button mashing fest--there was almost never a time to do nothing the whole TF. And yet, I let SB expire quite a bit--not from intent, I just sometimes had better things to do (like end draining an EB or capping FS on the blaster) at the time, and eventually I got around to it, at least if my teammates were in range. Oh, occasionally, I'd throw a heal out there, but honestly, there wasn't a huge need, and even if there were, it's too much of a bother to figure out who's hurt and target what mob they're standing near that won't be dead in the next 2 seconds anyway.
Bottom line, no one complained, no one really suffered from the lack of SB (or heals), and we wiped the floor w/everything that came into our lines of sight. It's not a playstyle I like all the time--sometimes, I like the more relaxed (read, lazy) approach of a /Rad, but if you're going to play Kin, I figure you may as well be ready for a busy night. If you're not going to take SB though, I can at least empathize, if not sympathize with that stance. And from a receiving end, SB is a treat, not a right, though it's a mighty tasty treat, esp if I'm on my Stone tank.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.
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Do I NEED it on my stone tank? Absolutely not... I built my char with the idea that a kin wouldn't always be available and therefore have a good IO build setup that gives me +run and +rech to the point where I can get by without it. Is it nice when given, absolutely. While leveling did I always have the extra set bonuses I have now... and potentially needed a kin to manage everything on high performance teams. Yes I did at one point otherwise I couldn't guarantee I would hold everything.
Assuming every single stone tank in existence has both the knowledge and currency available to offset the penalties enough to not NEED SB otherwise they are a 'bad' player is just as bad as the people who claim that if you have sb and don't use it on every single person in the group at all times you are a 'bad'
player.
You can't have it both ways and claim that just because its your char and you build it your way doesn't make you bad as a kin, but then fault another class for doing the same. Particularly when it's a hell of a lot harder and more expensive to properly build a stone tank that doesn't need outside buffs than it is to either select and use sb, or don't.
Please keep in mind, I feel for the kins. They are demanded to give buffs and as a former defendaholic I fully understand what that is like. I am fully appreciative of them and always say thank you when they are able to fit sb for me into their attack cycle. I would never demand a kin buff me, or kick one just because they were in my group and either didn't have sb or didn't use it.
[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. If you(general you) need a certain buff to be able to play your character, you are a bad player. I mean it. I'm not saying somebody is dumb or hopeless, just that relying on other people to be able to play your character shows a lack of skill and understanding.
If you(again general you) can't play your stone tank because you don't get speed boost, you are the problem. There is nobody else to blame
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IMO, the only person that deserves to constantly ask about SB is a stone tank.
[/ QUOTE ] They can ask all they want, but any player(regardless of AT) that demands or needs speed boost is a bad player. Period.
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Do I NEED it on my stone tank? Absolutely not... I built my char with the idea that a kin wouldn't always be available and therefore have a good IO build setup that gives me +run and +rech to the point where I can get by without it. Is it nice when given, absolutely. While leveling did I always have the extra set bonuses I have now... and potentially needed a kin to manage everything on high performance teams. Yes I did at one point otherwise I couldn't guarantee I would hold everything.
Assuming every single stone tank in existence has both the knowledge and currency available to offset the penalties enough to not NEED SB otherwise they are a 'bad' player is just as bad as the people who claim that if you have sb and don't use it on every single person in the group at all times you are a 'bad' player.
You can't have it both ways and claim that just because its your char and you build it your way doesn't make you bad as a kin, but then fault another class for doing the same. Particularly when it's a hell of a lot harder and more expensive to properly build a stone tank that doesn't need outside buffs than it is to either select and use sb, or don't.
Please keep in mind, I feel for the kins. They are demanded to give buffs and as a former defendaholic I fully understand what that is like. I am fully appreciative of them and always say thank you when they are able to fit sb for me into their attack cycle. I would never demand a kin buff me, or kick one just because they were in my group and either didn't have sb or didn't use it.
[/ QUOTE ] I disagree. If you(general you) need a certain buff to be able to play your character, you are a bad player. I mean it. I'm not saying somebody is dumb or hopeless, just that relying on other people to be able to play your character shows a lack of skill and understanding.
If you(again general you) can't play your stone tank because you don't get speed boost, you are the problem. There is nobody else to blame
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Would you call a stone tank with no IO's at all who was trying unsuccessfully to tank the STF that doesn't have granite a "bad" player? What if they just don't like using the power?
Is it wrong to say that any character needs buffs?
What about if a blaster "needs" adrenaline rush after a nuke otherwise they aren't going to be doing as much damage.
What about a tank that doesn't have enough defense/resist due to either the AT or their build and therefore "needs" bubbles/sonic/etc to be able to handle a specific AV.
What about any character when doing an MA mission with a lot of extreme aoe damage (spines for example)? What if those characters "need" buffs/heals/support in order to survive in any melee range at all.
Do all of these things mean bad players or should we just expect every character in the game to be able to handle any content at all without help?
Do people truly NEED SB or they will skip the content? Absolutely not, but you cannot say in this game you can do everything available without the help of support AT's unless you go to the absolute extreme of decking out a character and have selected a very specific set of powers.
The large majority of players will require support help which is great because there is an entire AT devoted to helping their allies in one way or another. Needing that help doesn't make you bad.
Trying to force a kin who doesn't want to use sb to use it is absolutely wrong and irritating, I agree (which is why I don't do it)... but claiming that someone is bad because they don't need help in the form of buffs is equally the sign of a bad player.
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Do people truly NEED SB or they will skip the content? Absolutely not, but you cannot say in this game you can do everything available without the help of support AT's unless you go to the absolute extreme of decking out a character and have selected a very specific set of powers.
[/ QUOTE ] It's a good thing I never said that. I'll be more clear since you obviously missed the point I was trying to make.
If you need an outside buff to function, then you are a bad player. That means basic functionality. If you can't run normal missions without somebody else giving you a certain buff, then you aren't very good at this game.
All those specific situations you mentioned was not what I was talking about.
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Do all of these things mean bad players or should we just expect every character in the game to be able to handle any content at all without help?
[/ QUOTE ] You see, that right there was not what I was saying. I never said that, or implied it. You pulled that out of thin air. Nice try.
Maybe I should quote what I was responding to again because you seem to think I'm making this up out of thin air. These are your words:
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I'm not saying somebody is dumb or hopeless, just that relying on other people to be able to play your character shows a lack of skill and understanding.
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A lack of skill and understanding because your depending on other people to be able to play your character? Everyone who teams in this game depends on other people to be able to play their character. Sure some classes solo through to the ends of the earth and manage completely on their own... but in a team environment everyone is dependent on everyone else.
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If you need an outside buff to function, then you are a bad player. That means basic functionality. If you can't run normal missions without somebody else giving you a certain buff, then you aren't very good at this game.
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I mentioned a bunch of "specific situations" as you said where people need specific buffs and raised the question of whether you thought the people in those situations were 'bad' players and you then said that wasn't what you were talking about... It sounds and sounded exactly what you were talking about to me, unless you just didn't want specifics in which case I guess I can just fade out of the conversation.
I'm generalizing. Of course nobody should be expected to do insanely difficult tasks alone. But if a stone tank can't make it through a normal mission because they don't get speed boost, then the tank is the problem. It is either a poorly built or poorly played tank. Perhaps saying they are bad players is a little harsh.
I'm starting to get the impression that you're talking about difficult situations, while I'm talking about normal gameplay. If that is correct, then I think we are both right.
The examples you posted are among the extreme ones in the game. Very few ppl can tank the STF w/o outside help, and they prolly chew insps even w/a fully IO'ed build (though I can think of a few that could do it w/o). And what blaster thinks they "need" AB or Transference after a nuke? Sure, one would be nice, but most I think can play the game very well w/o them by chewing a blue or two. I think Munki's point is that for everyday play, just normal teaming and stuff, you shouldn't have to rely on a buff to function at an acceptable level. In fact, you shouldn't have to rely on any single power to get your job done--that includes Taunt, Hasten, Stamina (well, maybe Stamina...), whatever, because you should have a variety of options. If your only option as a Stony is to get SB'ed to function, yeah, I'd call that a failure in design & execution. I do not think you are arguing for this point, but your arguments are going in that direction.
I also don't see joining a team as necessarily gaining some dependency on your teammates. Sure, good team play will make things go smoother, but frankly, one of the last remaining challenges in this game (silly custom critters in MA missions aside) is keeping a bad PuG going strong w/your mad skillz. 
My tanks (Stone or otherwise) don't need anything from my teammates. Missions will go much faster if they add buffs, debuffs, damage, etc, but my 50s can most solo 8-man missions by themselves. Does that make me "dependent" on my teammates? For faster completes (and let's face it, more fun), yes, but not as a matter of necessity.
On the flip side, refusing the even take SB just to spite ppl who cry for it seems a bit extreme too (not saying anyone has taken this stance... maybe some have, I really haven't read the thread in full...). SB's a good buff--if you get it, be thankful, but don't play around the idea of it. If you can give it, try to, but not at the expense of having fun. Somewhere, there's a happy middle ground for us all.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
dave_p said my point much better than I did.
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I'm generalizing. Of course nobody should be expected to do insanely difficult tasks alone. But if a stone tank can't make it through a normal mission because they don't get speed boost, then the tank is the problem. It is either a poorly built or poorly played tank. Perhaps saying they are bad players is a little harsh.
I'm starting to get the impression that you're talking about difficult situations, while I'm talking about normal gameplay. If that is correct, then I think we are both right.
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That is entirely possible.
One of the only reasons I continue to play this game is for the extreme challenges, and it's the main reason the character I spend the largest amount of time on is my stone tank who is capable of doing those extreme challenges.
To me though this game isn't nearly as fun unless I'm doing harder missions the entire way up and struggling at least a little bit. Steamrolling content that is too easy ends up feeling more like statbuilder than anything to me and gets boring. Basically the MA is a godsend...
In the context of what I think you're talking about I think I can concede that you're right that no buffs are "needed".
In the context of the way I play the game though buffs are needed, I just don't care as much which ones as a lot of people seem to (ie... needing healers, sb, and who knows what else that a lot of pugs seem to think are required)... and I also won't fault someone for either not taking or giving a buff that is as much of a pain in the butt as SB is.
I have been on both sides. any kin that HAS sb should SB when asked for it while on a team. any kin that doesn't sb their teammates is not a bad player. however they are a bad TEAM PLAYER. being on a team means working together as EFFICIENTLY as possible. thus everyone depends on each other and teammates fulfill roles they are best suited for by their build. no one needs SB. so u defensive kins out there don't try to turn this argument into something else. it is just more efficient with SB. there is ALWAYS room for efficiency. ALWAYS.
also, SB is indirectly a high damage power and contributes to more heals, more holds, mezzes, taunts, debuffs, buffs from other players and so on. if a blaster had a high damage power recharging just as fast as SB does, I can say without a doubt they'd use it as often as they can, so why shouldn't a kin look at SB in the same way?
I play a current 49 kin/elec and 38 fire/kin so I know what's I like being demanded of such tasks and I don't mind being asked for SB whatsoever. I've NEVER had a team that was rude to me about it. I try me damn best to keep my team SB'ed on top of FSing, transferencing, healing, siphon speeding (and even short circuiting and thunderballing with my kin/elec) so don't give the excuse there's no time or that your team has no downtime in between groups.
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I have been on both sides. any kin that HAS sb should SB when asked for it while on a team. any kin that doesn't sb their teammates is not a bad player. however they are a bad TEAM PLAYER. being on a team means working together as EFFICIENTLY as possible. thus everyone depends on each other and teammates fulfill roles they are best suited for by their build. no one needs SB. so u defensive kins out there don't try to turn this argument into something else. it is just more efficient with SB. there is ALWAYS room for efficiency. ALWAYS.
also, SB is indirectly a high damage power and contributes to more heals, more holds, mezzes, taunts, debuffs, buffs from other players and so on. if a blaster had a high damage power recharging just as fast as SB does, I can say without a doubt they'd use it as often as they can, so why shouldn't a kin look at SB in the same way?
I play a current 49 kin/elec and 38 fire/kin so I know what's I like being demanded of such tasks and I don't mind being asked for SB whatsoever. I've NEVER had a team that was rude to me about it. I try me damn best to keep my team SB'ed on top of FSing, transferencing, healing, siphon speeding (and even short circuiting and thunderballing with my kin/elec) so don't give the excuse there's no time or that your team has no downtime in between groups.
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I don't really play a kin, much, am more brute scrapper, and part time tank. But I can't dissagree more with the poor team player. IMO the poor team player is the one who expects another player to build and play to their tastes and gets mad when they don't. A kin can contribute his share sometimes even more then his share to the party without SB. I do not think it is fair to say they are poor team players for not SBing, just as I would not think that a tank is a poor team player for not picking up taunt as soon as it was available.
Which is why I'm glad most of my kins are Corrupters. i have SB on them, but most of my kin powers are to make me a better corrupter. tho, i do try to keep the brute/tank's sb up. and i do tell people that i'm not chasing them around to keep sb up.
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I try me damn best to keep my team SB'ed on top of FSing, transferencing, healing, siphon speeding (and even short circuiting and thunderballing with my kin/elec) so don't give the excuse there's no time or that your team has no downtime in between groups.
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So if another player does not possess the same level of skill you have or their reflexes are not quite as fast as you, he is a poor team player? 0.o
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. "But I'm a fast healer" 
. Four team wipes later..."I'll go get my tank"....three team wipes later...."Mission is hard". Perfect example of a PLed Lazy kins with no SB. Mind you we had a Rock tank and fire scrapper on team...So there went the dps. Fulcrum workeds "only when it wants to". Horrible player.
Shout out to DR. Janis on Guardian server who;
Is level 50
Has no SB...I repeat has no SB
Reasons; "It doesnt fit into my purple set scheme"
[/ QUOTE ] Blaming seven team wipes on one person has got to be the stupidest thing I have read on the forums all week. By a mile. If the team wiped that many times, then it was a crappy team. Every single member of the team shares responsibility.
Also, I don't take SB on my kins(one of which is about to get deleted), and I don't take heal other on my emps. And if that pisses off one of my teammates, guess what? They get kicked and my team blows through missions anyways.
It actually works out real well for me. I get good xp, have fun, and weed out all the tools that I come across.