The new ranged attacks
By
AgentMountaineer,
Posted on: 2009-05-06 16:28 in The Global Training Room Test Server
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm testing this on a 50 -- with defense, resists, regen, and extra HP from IO sets.
My defender would simply die, even with 3 white minions rather than 5.
Put another way: Melee mobs should not have ranged attacks that do damage like Nemesis snipers.
Damage over time doesn't matter, here; we're talking about an alpha strike. No other melee mob on the game does ranged damage like this on an alpha.
[/ QUOTE ]
<nod>
Upon further testing with alternate characters I agree the damage is too high.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
I've noticed that the Ranged attacks that melee sets had were high, but I didn't notice it for long because my other Custom Critters were summoning two sets of Voltaic Sentinels and had Short Circuit. 
Show's what I get for not checking what was changed with the power selections.
Ah you are correct. We still need to get Sunstorm to lower Standard difficulty a tad: like Mind and Psi foes not having Confuse on Standard, for instance.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
Then we have Shurikens. Clocking in at 25% more damage than the "normal" 8 second recharge attacks, but sharing Throwing Knives' fast animation.
[/ QUOTE ]
This might be deliberate. Martial Arts is widely regarded as a relatively weak set: maybe it was given a stronger ranged attack to bring it up to speed?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Oops double post.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I realize in retrospect that my testing was somewhat skewed because all the custom critters in the mission I was testing have Martial Arts as a secondary, and therefore, all of them were flinging shurikens, so it was really raining death. The hit rate seemed pretty close to 100%, though, although I've got some okay defense. Do shurikens get a weapon accuracy bonus?
As added frustration, I originally used dual blades on quite a few of my custom critters (remember, this mission was designed for lowbies). A spawn of three white-con DB+MA minions managed to splatter all three of my Imps. I'm going to have to go back and change that, too, due to the much higher damage from the new combos. I'm trying to decide what to do about that, because I love the DB animations and I have a bunch of critters thematically costumed along those lines, using different types of blades.
(Yes, I admit, I experiment with MA in part because I get to create lots and lots of costumes.)
At the moment, I'm choosing not to rebalance my arcs, because I have frankly no idea how I would rebalance them. I'm just going to go back and add into the descriptions, "Warning: Squishies cannot solo this mission because MA critter balance is now broken." and leave it alone until we get some dev sanity.
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it make more sense to all of you if melee power sets were given something closer to a Tier 1 ranged attack instead of the Tier 2? Since they specialize in melee, they would have lesser ranged damage, or so I'd think.
So Charged Bolts (107.79 Avg Dmg @lvl 50) instead of Lightning Bolt (175.63 Avg. Dmg @lvl 50), just as an example. Maybe up the recharge to 8 seconds from 4. As for Throwing Knives or Shuriken, I think we can all agree that they need to be brought in line with whatever attack damage scale is used for the other sets' ranged attacks.
Quote:
|
Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
[ QUOTE ]
(Yes, I admit, I experiment with MA in part because I get to create lots and lots of costumes.)
[/ QUOTE ]
Freak!
(doesn't look at the dozens of custom enemies that aren't used by any arcs...)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then we have Shurikens. Clocking in at 25% more damage than the "normal" 8 second recharge attacks, but sharing Throwing Knives' fast animation.
[/ QUOTE ]
This might be deliberate. Martial Arts is widely regarded as a relatively weak set: maybe it was given a stronger ranged attack to bring it up to speed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Katana gets it too, and is anything but weak. The ridiculous damage on Shuriken seems like a complete fluke to me, personally.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you can cherry pick custom critter powers, it shouldn't be a problem. Until then, watch out for custom foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
You won't be able to cherry pick powers. The custom critters will come with a standard set of powers the devs pick and then we can "add" more powers to them. Obviously since the custom critters are already overpowered this change is not helpful to balancing things out the way they need to be.
I don't think this is helpful in any way to MA missions using "customs" as they are just too hard to "balance" when they come out the shoot already way more powerful than the PvE critters and that is not something that is hard to figure out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Hopefully this is being looked at. It's great that we want MA primarily for developing new stories/content, but that can be nullified by making them unplayable for story-focused players.
Custom mobs are a key component to writing fun stories; they just need to be able to be toned down a bit to feel more like the standard NPCs. It's got to be a difficult balancing act, considering what the devs would like to have in the MA and what they would like to keep out.
[ QUOTE ]
For your browsing convenience:
Minion damage with the "special" ranged powers added to melee sets.
Shurikens:
(1.07s activation, 8.00s Recharge)
Level 10: 46
Level 20: 92
Level 30: 149
Level 40: 198
Level 50: 219
Gloom:
(1.10s activation, 8.00s recharge)
Level 10: 39
Level 20: 79
Level 30: 128
Level 40: 171
Level 50: 188
Lightning Bolt, Power Blast, Ice Blast, Hurl*, Hurl Boulder*, Impale**:
(1.67s activation, 8.00s recharge)
(*2.50s activation for Hurl, Hurl Boulder)
(**2.43s activation for Impale)
Level 10: 36
Level 20: 73
Level 30: 119
Level 40: 159
Level 50: 175
Focus:
(1.17s activation, 6.40s recharge)
Level 10: 31
Level 20: 62
Level 30: 101
Level 40: 135
Level 50: 148
Fire Blast: (1.67s activation, 4.00s recharge)
Level 10: 30
Level 20: 60
Level 30: 98
Level 40: 131
Level 50: 145
Throwing Knives: (1.00s activation, 8.00s Recharge)
Level 10: 27
Level 20: 55
Level 30: 89
Level 40: 119
Level 50: 131
To start the fight, worst case scenario is you're facing 3 shuriken users, and they all hit. With the DOT, this is 657 damage, with 477 more coming in 9.07 seconds, and 180 points of DOT over the next 5 seconds after the second hit, if you keep them at range. This is a total of 1314 damage in 15.14 seconds from engagement to the finish of the DOT.
However, this is with all the attacks hitting.
On average, with the 50% minion hitrate, you will suffer half that much, clocking in at 657. You have a 1/64 chance of being hit with ALL of the damage. However, since a player fights many spawns of 3 minions when soloing, this is an eventuality they will have to cope with in actual play.
It looks to me like they hit the mark you guys seem to be talking about with throwing knives, which never eclipse any similar 8.00 second recharge attack.
Fire Blast is a bit of a fluke, being the only 4 second recharge attack, but showing a lot of power relative to it's peers despite the shorter recharge.
The ranged powers in the Lightning Bolt etc. tier all match the damage of a typical 8 second recharge melee attack: Chop, Pulverize. Oddly, Heavy Stone Fist clocks in with higher damage, and a faster animation. Gloom is merely seeing it's "I'm all DOT" bonus above and beyond the other "8 second" ranged attacks.
Then we have Shurikens. Clocking in at 25% more damage than the "normal" 8 second recharge attacks, but sharing Throwing Knives' fast animation. I see this power being a real deal breaker, and as demonstrated above, is statistically eventually going to kill undefended squishies in 2 volleys, with the first volley having a not insignifigant 1/8 chance of lopping off as much or more than 1/2 their health. Bear in mind that that analysis ignored the possibility of the NPC's in question closing to melee and using other attacks, or using other ranged attacks from a secondary powerset, both of which would result in a much faster kill time than the 15 seconds quoted above.
[/ QUOTE ]
What about Aim and Build Up? Wouldn't that make this even more lethal?
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
QR, my two cents:
Adding a ranged power to the melee sets: good.
Adding ridiculously over-powered ranged powers to the melee sets: bad.
I actually LIKE that the melee mobs can hit fliers and kiters now. I do NOT like that a group of 3-4 melee mobs can get lucky and take out a squishy. And given the fact that my non-min/maxed SR Scrapper takes on groups of 5 or more at a time... between the 3 guys I'm fighting in melee range and their buddies pegging me with heavy ranged attacks, even I drop (or at least have to rest) after every battle.
(Obviously, dropping a few 100M on IOs would solve some of those problems, but I don't require them for any regular content...)
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
-----
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
|
[ QUOTE ]
QR, my two cents:
Adding a ranged power to the melee sets: good.
Adding ridiculously over-powered ranged powers to the melee sets: bad.
I actually LIKE that the melee mobs can hit fliers and kiters now. I do NOT like that a group of 3-4 melee mobs can get lucky and take out a squishy. And given the fact that my non-min/maxed SR Scrapper takes on groups of 5 or more at a time... between the 3 guys I'm fighting in melee range and their buddies pegging me with heavy ranged attacks, even I drop (or at least have to rest) after every battle.
(Obviously, dropping a few 100M on IOs would solve some of those problems, but I don't require them for any regular content...)
[/ QUOTE ]
lol don't you know that the we are expected to do these misshes with only granite tanks and the like?
Seriously, I'll say it again, this patch SHOULD have been kept on TEST longer so folks could actually TEST.
If these patches are being pushed through cause of the anniversary and issue 15, I say [censored] issue 15 and the anniversary. Get the [censored] right first before pushing it out.
Of course i don't expect anyone to take that idea seriously.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The balance problem, of course, is this:
Scrapper, tank, or brute: Hey, quit it! That tickles!
Everyone else: OH GOD MY FACE, MY FACE!
MA content is certainly startlingly challenging on my melee toons, especially when there are enough minions to stack enough magnitude to overcome mez protections. But it's a little owie compared to what squishies face, especially now.
I'd rather the devs impose XP caps and other explicit anti-abuse protections, than to prevent fine-grained controls over critter power level and indeed, reasonably standard-mob-equivalent critter design.
IDK, if an xp cap is something that is needed, good or doable with the large variety in map sizes. Making that attack in line with the PvE critters seems to be the logical answer.
Taking Battle Maidens troops as the standard bearer they have the arrow attack and then the main melee attacks. Going beyond that level of damage is overboard for "whatever" excuse they try to use, IMHO.
Using custom critters in your story arc ramps up the difficulty quite a bit and with this new deadly ranged attack just throws things way too far outta whack for the risk/reward/time compared to PvE criters and that should not be the case.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The Devs have stated that a design goal is that fighting a foe in the MA should be like fighting a PC.
Of course the average critter is much dumber than the average PC (YMMV) and so needs to actually be MORE powerful.
That said, it does seem like Shuriken may be out of line. A squishy should be able to face down spawns of minions and really only worry about adds, and not have to rest after each spawn (above level 20 or so).
But I can't help thinking that it may be that in the MA it is actually intended that...
White = moderately challenging spawn
Yellow = dangerous spawn
Red = very dangerous spawn, minmaxers only, please
Purple = Run Away!
...like it says in the tutorial.
The problem is that if the new ranged attacks are intended to be dangerous to hover blasters, how dangerous do they need to be? The minimum danger level to threaten a would be hover blaster might also be squishy-endangering level. By definition, even.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Its a typical developer over reaction to lacking the foresight in the design phase
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, as I posted in the patch discussion thread, Martial Arts Shuriken is actually it's strongest attack. A shuriken should not be doing more damage than all melee attacks on a melee-centric mob, especially moreso than their tier 9, three second animating, slow-motion kick to the head move ( I forgot the name... 
).
Being able to choose which ranged attack would also be nice.
[/ QUOTE ]
Considering most "adjustments" in this game seem to be done with a barrage of sledgehammers when the fine tuning of a single screwdriver would actually make sense, is anyone surprised by any of this? I mean, seriously, did you think they wouldn't go total overkill on some of this stuff?
[/ QUOTE ]
The ranged attacks doing major damage was probably done to prevent what the Devs considered an exploit (and I'm just talking normal MA missions); where if the MOB was melee with no ranged or just a very minor ranged attack; Ranged ATs could get XP for little to no risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a tradition reaching all the way back to Issue 2. We used to hunt Hydra in Perez Park by hover-sniping. The Devs responded by giving them a powerful Toxic ranged attack with -Fly, and cutting their XP drastically. Ever see anyone hunting Hydra these days?
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
You can wrap it all up in a nice bow, but the fact remains it is stinky.
The fact remains for the increased risk of CC's we get the same reward, no problem. They then not only give them a ranged attack WAY outta whack with PvE critters, but making it so you can get "any" form of balance across AT's as if it were not already a nightmare. Immobs and holds are weaker against CC's and this take you down in two shots ranged attacks ends fun for most squishies, overboard.
I don't care what the tutorial says the feature is broken for CC's when they are this overpowered and im talking for high level toons. Lowbies cannot use CC's in missions now and that is not making any sense whatsoever.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
We had a publishing blackout during the reactivation that prevented us from putting new code up onto the live servers.
clarify that.
posi is sezzing they dont have control over their own servers.
so now we get over powered range attacks on melee critters.
If that isnt just a fail flavored lame sauce on a heavy handed burger! yummy! my favorite!
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
[ QUOTE ]
We had a publishing blackout during the reactivation that prevented us from putting new code up onto the live servers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Publishing blackouts (intentional) are standard practice for MMOs at given times. This is nothing new, unusual, or unexpected.
On the bright side, we can now give a custom critter a new uber-rangeified melee primary, set it to "ranged" AI, and basically make it a single-big-attack sniper style mob. Possibly with Build Up.
You know, just in case anyone wanted an uninterruptible sniper option. Now we've got it. In melee primaries.
the problem isnt just in the ranged attacks, its in the number of attacks that they get at ALL levels. A friend made an MA arc and I ran it on a soft capped sr brute, it was effortless however he had a few messages from people who tried his arc who found it totally impossible, reason being was players at lvl 16 had to face the same attacks as I did as a lvl 50.
custom mobs are becoming more and more off limits and as a result what will be the point of MA? I fear its dangerously close to being another Arena, COP or base issue.
[ QUOTE ]
the problem isnt just in the ranged attacks, its in the number of attacks that they get at ALL levels. A friend made an MA arc and I ran it on a soft capped sr brute, it was effortless however he had a few messages from people who tried his arc who found it totally impossible, reason being was players at lvl 16 had to face the same attacks as I did as a lvl 50.
custom mobs are becoming more and more off limits and as a result what will be the point of MA? I fear its dangerously close to being another Arena, COP or base issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
My custom mobs have worked out pretty well the changes didn't effect them at all. But then all of my mobs have fairly solid arrays of attacks to begin with. I did have to add a couple of types to give more of a chance for some types but running my low levels against them worked out just fine.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
For your browsing convenience:
Minion damage with the "special" ranged powers added to melee sets.
Shurikens:
(1.07s activation, 8.00s Recharge)
Level 10: 46
Level 20: 92
Level 30: 149
Level 40: 198
Level 50: 219
Gloom:
(1.10s activation, 8.00s recharge)
Level 10: 39
Level 20: 79
Level 30: 128
Level 40: 171
Level 50: 188
Lightning Bolt, Power Blast, Ice Blast, Hurl*, Hurl Boulder*, Impale**:
(1.67s activation, 8.00s recharge)
(*2.50s activation for Hurl, Hurl Boulder)
(**2.43s activation for Impale)
Level 10: 36
Level 20: 73
Level 30: 119
Level 40: 159
Level 50: 175
Focus:
(1.17s activation, 6.40s recharge)
Level 10: 31
Level 20: 62
Level 30: 101
Level 40: 135
Level 50: 148
Fire Blast: (1.67s activation, 4.00s recharge)
Level 10: 30
Level 20: 60
Level 30: 98
Level 40: 131
Level 50: 145
Throwing Knives: (1.00s activation, 8.00s Recharge)
Level 10: 27
Level 20: 55
Level 30: 89
Level 40: 119
Level 50: 131
To start the fight, worst case scenario is you're facing 3 shuriken users, and they all hit. With the DOT, this is 657 damage, with 477 more coming in 9.07 seconds, and 180 points of DOT over the next 5 seconds after the second hit, if you keep them at range. This is a total of 1314 damage in 15.14 seconds from engagement to the finish of the DOT.
However, this is with all the attacks hitting.
On average, with the 50% minion hitrate, you will suffer half that much, clocking in at 657. You have a 1/64 chance of being hit with ALL of the damage. However, since a player fights many spawns of 3 minions when soloing, this is an eventuality they will have to cope with in actual play.
It looks to me like they hit the mark you guys seem to be talking about with throwing knives, which never eclipse any similar 8.00 second recharge attack.
Fire Blast is a bit of a fluke, being the only 4 second recharge attack, but showing a lot of power relative to it's peers despite the shorter recharge.
The ranged powers in the Lightning Bolt etc. tier all match the damage of a typical 8 second recharge melee attack: Chop, Pulverize. Oddly, Heavy Stone Fist clocks in with higher damage, and a faster animation. Gloom is merely seeing it's "I'm all DOT" bonus above and beyond the other "8 second" ranged attacks.
Then we have Shurikens. Clocking in at 25% more damage than the "normal" 8 second recharge attacks, but sharing Throwing Knives' fast animation. I see this power being a real deal breaker, and as demonstrated above, is statistically eventually going to kill undefended squishies in 2 volleys, with the first volley having a not insignifigant 1/8 chance of lopping off as much or more than 1/2 their health. Bear in mind that that analysis ignored the possibility of the NPC's in question closing to melee and using other attacks, or using other ranged attacks from a secondary powerset, both of which would result in a much faster kill time than the 15 seconds quoted above.
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.