AE Critter Power Changes
By
300_below,
Posted on: 2009-04-29 17:47 in The Global Training Room Test Server
It's becoming increasingly obvious that the only solution that will be remotely close to palatable to everyone is to define a minimum standard set of powers and allow everything else to be freely picked.
Which is essentially what we said during closed beta, but we got ill-defined tiers instead. Now they're slightly better-defined tiers in which adhering to the rules defined produces many dubious corner cases. That's not a good enough step up.
I agree that we should be able to start from minimums and pick any other powers we want via checkboxes. However, that is likely to bloat the size of the critters in terms of data. Would you still want that option if it doubled the data footprint of custom critters?
I would, but I'm not convinced I'm in the majority.
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So just looking at this now, someone who had, say, a Dark Melee/Dual Blades boss on standard (somewhat challenging but not very hard-hitting except Shadow Punch and Smite) would've had a boss with 4 attacks. Now they're looking at a minimum of 11 attacks, two of which are ranged. Those bosses are now equipped - on standard difficulty! - with one of the best AoE attacks in the game in Shadow Maul, a high-damage immobilize, and can do at least one Dual Blades combo.
That's not right.
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It'll keep bosses from running away because they have no attacks that they can use?
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I doubt it. I'm completely convinced there's some AI bug with custom units. Super Strength enemies still run away from my widow. In fact, Dark Blast/Fire Blast AVs run from my widow. In fact, AVs that I can recreate to be identical to existing AVs will run from my widow, while the original will not.
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It's becoming increasingly obvious that the only solution that will be remotely close to palatable to everyone is to define a minimum standard set of powers and allow everything else to be freely picked.
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This. This. This. A thousand times this.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If we're going to be stuck with tiers, THREE IS NOT ENOUGH! We need a "Standard" baseline of required powers and then set of tiers working up to Extreme over several steps. Maybe also some tiers that are the same except one has a mezz power and the other doesn't.
Right now this statement, right from the 4/27 patch notes, is a blatant lie.
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Power selection for custom critters should be better standardized, more flexible and provide finer control over the difficulty of custom critters.
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These changes don't do anything of the sort!
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I agree that we should be able to start from minimums and pick any other powers we want via checkboxes. However, that is likely to bloat the size of the critters in terms of data. Would you still want that option if it doubled the data footprint of custom critters?
I would, but I'm not convinced I'm in the majority.
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Doubling is highly unlikely, given that you can theoretically represent a power pick with a single bit and no MA critter can have more than 21 assigned powers (counting flight). That's without even getting into fancy stuff like using hex values. If the bloat would me much more significant than that, I'd argue investigating optimization techniques should be a high priority.
The real question is how difficult it would be to integrate such a system into the existing MA code, and what it would cost in terms of development resources (as measured in pohsyb's blood, sweat, and tears, and possibly Castle's consumption of antacids).
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Doubling is highly unlikely, given that you can theoretically represent a power pick with a single bit and no MA critter can have more than 21 assigned powers (counting flight). That's without even getting into fancy stuff like using hex values. If the bloat would me much more significant than that, I'd argue investigating optimization techniques should be a high priority.
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So can costume data, and indeed already is somewhat (in demorecord files), but they chose a bloated format for MA instead...
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It's becoming increasingly obvious that the only solution that will be remotely close to palatable to everyone is to define a minimum standard set of powers and allow everything else to be freely picked.
Do hard and extreme have any xp or reward effect?
If not - if they are just ways of selecting powers, than I definitely think that a minimum set and free pick of additional powers is the way to go.
Which is essentially what we said during closed beta, but we got ill-defined tiers instead. Now they're slightly better-defined tiers in which adhering to the rules defined produces many dubious corner cases. That's not a good enough step up.
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I'm not sure I get this comment. Custom critters hit *much* harder than the standard NPCs. The problem many of us have had since beta is creating custom enemies that don't wipe us out quickly.
Most of the "farms" I've seen consist of hand-picked standard critters (Rikti, Freaks, etc.), not customs.
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That is what the Devs don't seem to get. These changes are going to do jack-[censored] to curb farming. Instead they're going to kill custom critter creation, which was one of the biggest draws of the Mission Architect. Which stuff like this in place you'll more likely have people avoiding missions that list "Custom Group" among the factions present.
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QFT
I've yet to see a popular farm that consisted of primarily customs. They have almost always been existing hand picked dev creations.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's tolerance threshold has been surpassed.
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The "popular" farms may not be the "best" farms. They are probably the easiest farms to make and run, and some of them probably were, in fact, the best bang for your buck (Rikti Doll and MEOW). It is entirely possible that datamining has showed that there are a number of farmers performing well enough above the curve using entirely custom mobs. The reason you haven't heard of these farms could be because the farmer who made them is smart enough to not invite random people to his farms, not broadcast his farm across Atlas Park for all to see, and not advertise his arcs here on the Forum. This could be the results of the "extensive datamining tools" that the Devs have claimed to have.
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I agree that we should be able to start from minimums and pick any other powers we want via checkboxes. However, that is likely to bloat the size of the critters in terms of data. Would you still want that option if it doubled the data footprint of custom critters?
I would, but I'm not convinced I'm in the majority.
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I wouldn't, but I also know that would not be required. My own personal opinion is that the Standard/Hard/Extreme settings could be made much better, but also just like the tohit fiddling done in I5, its really a stop gap that has to eventually yield to a system that more directly addresses the problem, in tis case a more flexible selection system (I said as much in beta, and I said as much to the devs). The only question is a matter of when.
The Standard/Hard/Extreme metaphor only works for things like conventional attacks. It really doesn't work for things like Build Up, or Deceive, or Detention Field. Those powers defy the conventional "easy or hard" choice, or turn it on its ear (Build Up is the classic example of a power that overturns the apple cart on difficulty: giving it to minions can be too harsh for some authors, but contrawise if its only included with the hard-hitting powers then the performance gap between settings can become too high to be useful as well).
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The "popular" farms may not be the "best" farms. They are probably the easiest farms to make and run, and some of them probably were, in fact, the best bang for your buck (Rikti Doll and MEOW). It is entirely possible that datamining has showed that there are a number of farmers performing well enough above the curve using entirely custom mobs. The reason you haven't heard of these farms could be because the farmer who made them is smart enough to not invite random people to his farms, not broadcast his farm across Atlas Park for all to see, and not advertise his arcs here on the Forum. This could be the results of the "extensive datamining tools" that the Devs have claimed to have.
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But farms are not the main issue the people in this thread are concerned about. It's about taking critters that are already tougher than standard mobs and making them even tougher. I like creating and fighting custom critters, but going in and just getting slaughtered is no fun at all.
We are supposed to be able to level from 1-50 through the MA -- and my family as created a few characters with which we plan to do just that. If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
Please don't hammer the whole playerbase just to nerf the farmers. We don't want to be collateral damage in the battle against farms.
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If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
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Especially if Super Strength Bosses start getting Knockout Blow at level 8 as a Standard Attack.
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Please don't hammer the whole playerbase just to nerf the farmers. We don't want to be collateral damage in the battle against farms.
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Agreed. This is like using artillery to kill a mosquito at a picnic party. The chances of it hitting the target are next to none while the collateral damage will be immense.
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If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
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Especially if Super Strength Bosses start getting Knockout Blow at level 8 as a Standard Attack.
[/ QUOTE ]Not even "at level 8"...critters don't have level-gated powers. They have them, or they don't, so a level 1 boss would have KOB.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
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Especially if Super Strength Bosses start getting Knockout Blow at level 8 as a Standard Attack.
[/ QUOTE ]Not even "at level 8"...critters don't have level-gated powers. They have them, or they don't, so a level 1 boss would have KOB.
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Interesting, because I have never seen my Mind/Thorns Boss, who is Hard/Extreme, use any level 35 or 38 attacks from Thorn Assault when limited to level 33 and I know that she has them available.
Just tested her at level 50, 37, and 33. Above 33 she does use the level 35 and 38 Thorn attacks. Below 33 she does not use them.
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The Standard/Hard/Extreme metaphor only works for things like conventional attacks.
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The really big problem I see with the new proposal is it makes no sense as far as standard/hard/extreme goes. Even on top of what you're saying, the "conventional attacks" are a jumbled mess.
Minions lost high damage attacks... and gained extreme damage AoEs like Full Auto. Minions can't get Blazing Arrow anymore, but can get Rain of Arrows? Yeah, it's technically "extreme," but makes no sense. Why can't they get high damage attacks anymore?
Bosses are terrible. They all have at least 5 attacks, and worst of all they START with tier 9s. That means "easy" is "has the strongest attack in the entire set." Broadsword and Katana are off the wall. They have the two strongest attacks on easy mode. The "progression" of many of the sets makes no sense. Super Strength is the worst. It starts with the strongest attacks in the entire set. It starts off with two high damage attacks and an extreme. Next, on hard mode, it gains a power to add +80% damage all the time and an AoE. Then, for some unfathomable reason, on extreme it just gains Hand Clap. What's extreme about that?
I'd be down if the new system was making improvements, but the new version makes less sense than the old one did. Standard doesn't mean standard. Standard means "arbitrary system with tons of attacks and we decided all bosses should have tier 9s on the easiest difficulty for some reason." Beyond that it just seems random powers were picked. The progression is awful, even before you have to factor in the powers you mentioned, especially annoying ones like Energy Drain.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
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Especially if Super Strength Bosses start getting Knockout Blow at level 8 as a Standard Attack.
[/ QUOTE ]Not even "at level 8"...critters don't have level-gated powers. They have them, or they don't, so a level 1 boss would have KOB.
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Interesting, because I have never seen my Mind/Thorns Boss, who is Hard/Extreme, use any level 35 or 38 attacks from Thorn Assault when limited to level 33 and I know that she has them available.
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The AI is just dumb. I had a level 20 AV on extreme Plant summon Audrey but never use Carrion Creepers. And up until a recent patch my Stone Melee/Earth Armor units weren't using any toggles.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I am working on my own list of what powers should go in what categories. Unfortunately, I have sleep, then work, so it won't be done before tomorrow night. I suggest you also give it a try. It's pretty challenging.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
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Especially if Super Strength Bosses start getting Knockout Blow at level 8 as a Standard Attack.
[/ QUOTE ]Not even "at level 8"...critters don't have level-gated powers. They have them, or they don't, so a level 1 boss would have KOB.
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Interesting, because I have never seen my Mind/Thorns Boss, who is Hard/Extreme, use any level 35 or 38 attacks from Thorn Assault when limited to level 33 and I know that she has them available.
Just tested her at level 50, 37, and 33. Above 33 she does use the level 35 and 38 Thorn attacks. Below 33 she does not use them.
[/ QUOTE ]I fought custom controllers with pets below pet level (I think I was on my 19 emp/dark or my 20 PB, frankly I forget). And was flattened by Energy Transfer at level 35 on a mob that had /energy (friend's arc, that's how I knew).
So I was just gathering from those two examples.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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If they make the custom critters even harder, then low level characters may not be able to handle it.
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Especially if Super Strength Bosses start getting Knockout Blow at level 8 as a Standard Attack.
[/ QUOTE ]Not even "at level 8"...critters don't have level-gated powers. They have them, or they don't, so a level 1 boss would have KOB.
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Interesting, because I have never seen my Mind/Thorns Boss, who is Hard/Extreme, use any level 35 or 38 attacks from Thorn Assault when limited to level 33 and I know that she has them available.
Just tested her at level 50, 37, and 33. Above 33 she does use the level 35 and 38 Thorn attacks. Below 33 she does not use them.
[/ QUOTE ]I fought custom controllers with pets below pet level (I think I was on my 19 emp/dark or my 20 PB, frankly I forget). And was flattened by Energy Transfer at level 35 on a mob that had /energy (friend's arc, that's how I knew).
So I was just gathering from those two examples.
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Well at the Energy Transfer case it seems that since Energy Melee is being treated as a Primary even when Secondary it's still setting it as a level 32 power. As for the Pets at level 20, I have no answer other than it looks like the Devs had BIGGER problems to deal with in the MA system before even thinking of this patch.
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There's simply no way to cover all sensible combinations with just 3 levels. There needs to be several per powerset.
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What they need is just simply the ability for us to toggle on which powers we want a custom critter to have. I don't know why there need to be pre-set combos at all.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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my concern with that is if you add a tier 9 attach which probably does double what the other attacks do - and then add build up - suddenly going to extreme gives you an attack that does 4x the damage you did before.
Build up instead of a tier 9 makes sense, but I'd rather have the tier 9 for variety and skip the build up
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I actually wouldn't mind if they just took out the Aim and Build-Up powers either, it would make sorting Standard/Hard/Extreme easier. I imagine most players would rather keep them in, though. Do any ingame enemies use Aim/Build-Up?
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my concern with that is if you add a tier 9 attach which probably does double what the other attacks do - and then add build up - suddenly going to extreme gives you an attack that does 4x the damage you did before.
Build up instead of a tier 9 makes sense, but I'd rather have the tier 9 for variety and skip the build up
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I actually wouldn't mind if they just took out the Aim and Build-Up powers either, it would make sorting Standard/Hard/Extreme easier. I imagine most players would rather keep them in, though. Do any ingame enemies use Aim/Build-Up?
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None that I can recall, but then for some reason they also took Thunderstrike away from Custom Minions and Lieutenants when we already have regular Minions (Crey Voltaic Tanks) and Lieutenants (Pantheon Storm Shamans) who have had those powers since CoH started. Who knows what they're thinking.
I wouldn't mind having Aim/Build Up in some sort of "Beyond Extreme" tier but already we can see that this tier thing is simply not working.
Actually I don't think a single enemy outside of the MA has any kind of build up power.
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You know the only reason the ranged attacks were added was an attempt to curb some of the farming missions (whether good or bad) being created in AE. No longer will you be able to hover over melee attack units and kill them with AOEs. They will now have a ranged attack so you can't keep out of their range and take them down.
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Because Throwing Knives is really going to be a major threat to those farmers hovering overhead...
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It'll keep bosses from running away because they have no attacks that they can use?
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