AE Critter Power Changes

These changes are going to completely destroy my custom bosses. I wanted a good story that was soloable by any AT and I think I managed a pretty good balance...Now I'm going to have to completely gut them to keep the solo for squishies, and that will completely kill any challange for more solid ATs.

Now I'm starting to be pretty glad the arc didn't actually get flagged as Dev's Choice when the badge was awarded to me. It would be a disaster.

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Thanks! (And to IanTheM1 as well.) Easily done, looks like.

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I don't know if this is at all relevant to MA, but Frostfire uses controller pets below level 32, so it is possible somewhere in the game.

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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if this is at all relevant to MA, but Frostfire uses controller pets below level 32, so it is possible somewhere in the game.

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Actually, it's not just frostfire. I've noticed other Outcast bosses using controller pets as well. I know for certain I've seen lead scorchers summon fire imps, and I kind of think I've seen jack frost out as well.

I don't recall ever seeing that before I14, so I don't know if it's new or just rare enough that I never noticed it before.

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Custom Mobs do have level restrictions on their powers, I don't know whether it is across the board and done in a systimatic way though.

I know for a fact that my boss who has Gravity Control/Energy Assault will not summon his Singularity IF:

A) It is on heroic setting and he gets demoted to Lieutenant (Singy is for bosses only atm)
B) The level is too low. I just started testing a sequel arc and on that the boss is set to level 20 max due to Vahzilok and he does not use either Total Focus or Singularity.

This may not be the case for all sets, but I know for a fact that this is the case for my boss. He wont summon Singularity at low level.

I also had a Dark Miasma secondary boss who I never saw summon his Dark Servent. Then one day I did my arc with a higher level alt (41 not 24) and there was Fluffy. Anecdotal evidence yes, but I believe it to be true.

*edit bosses having knockout blow as standard is rediculous. That used to be exteme only and with good reason, it does 90% of my controller's health in one shot. This means that I either make the SS boss vulnerable to status effects (i.e easy kill) or he will almost one shot me, no middle ground.

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What the devs need to do is go through each set and catogroise each power by difficulty between 1 and 10. Some powers which are high up (7-10) should be not be available to minions, and only available to lieutenants on extreme and bosses on hard.

Example:
Ranged/Melee Low Damage: 1 (Power Bolt)
Ranged/Melee Medium Damage: 2 (Power Blast)
Ranged/Melee High Damage: 4 (Power Burst)
Ally Heal: 2 (02 Boost)
PBAOE Heal: 4 (Radiation Aura)
AoE Hold: 6 (Gravity Distortion Field)
Status Resist: 7 (Unyielding)
Summon Controller Pet: 7 (Singularity)
Ranged/Melee Extreme Damage: 8 (Sniper Blast, Total Focus)
Buildup/Aim: 10
Nukes: 10 (Inferno, Blizzard etc)

This is just an example. Then you could set the following parametres:

Minion (1-5)
Standard = 1-2
Hard = 3-4
Extreme = 5

**Any power over 5 is unavailable to minions, however it still gives you some good choice I think.

Lieutenants: (1-7)
Standard = 1-3
Hard = 4-5
Extreme = 6-7

**Lieutenants could potentially have nasty attacks, but its up to the player. Sometimes you can balance a group around weak minions and super powered lieutenants.

Bosses (1-10)
Standard = 1-5
Hard = 6-8
Extreme = 9-10

**Bosses can obviously potentially access everything and again its up to the player how much they wish to restrict it.

Okay it isn't perfect, but its a better system then what seems to be in place. The only difficulty is making sure you categorise the powers correctly. Also some sets do not have come with a full repetoir of powers.

For example, Empathy may not have a difficulty 5 power so for minions there is no difference between Hard and Extreme. Unfortunately this is something we will have to live with, unless the devs put in Absorb Pain or Regeneration Aura (+hp regen).

There are a lot of powers in the game whose actual power is questionable. Darkest Night? It would seem the devs rate it as 1 or 2, yet I would rate it as 5 or 6.

The problem with buffing/debuffing sets, is that for players you get some of the core powers early on and they are often extremely powerful, then you get more utility powers later.

In the hands of mobs, these "core" powers can often be overpowered if just thrown in at standard. I think the devs must realise that for the buffing/debuffing sets, lower level powers are not always weak. Darkest Night is a good example of this theory.

Despite being a low level power, I would rate it as 5, meaning minions could get it at extreme only.

You also have to remember that minions are common, and that you often fight more then 1. If you have 2 minions with Darkest Night, they amplify the effect because it stacks, crippling the opponent. I had a similar experience with this already, I had a radiation group in one of my arcs. Radiation Emission for minions gives them all Radiation infection (-accuarcy, -defence). I tested it and it was fine, until I found a group with 3 of this type of minion and they all used it and I was cripplied. Its definitly an extreme power, unless you can make it so mob versions don't stack, which I doubt is possible.

Anyway..just some thoughts from me.

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[ QUOTE ]
These changes are going to completely destroy my custom bosses. I wanted a good story that was soloable by any AT and I think I managed a pretty good balance...Now I'm going to have to completely gut them to keep the solo for squishies, and that will completely kill any challange for more solid ATs.

Now I'm starting to be pretty glad the arc didn't actually get flagged as Dev's Choice when the badge was awarded to me. It would be a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS sums up the OTHER inherent problem with this patch.

EDIT: If I were them I WOULD NOT push the custom changes, until they can get a system that's an actually GOOD stop gap to letting us select powers individually. Not a ham-fisted solution.

From reading this thread some of this stuff is just off the freaking wall.

And at first I thought just BU/AIM was the only problem. Sheesh!

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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

Just an example I thought I would try slot Martial Arts and Gravity Control into "the system" that I suggested in my last post.

MA:
Thunder Kick: 1
Storm Kick: 2
*Shuriken: 2
Cobra Strike: 5
Focus Chi: 10
Crane Kick: 3
Crippling Axe Kick: 6
Dragon's Tail: 6
Eagle's Claw: 8
(*= Assuming MA gets a ranged attack)

GC:
Crush: 1
Lift: 1
Gravity Distortion: 2
Propel: 5
Crushing Field: 4
Dimension Shift: 7
Gravity Distortion Field: 6
Wormhole: 8
Singularity:9

So assuming my mob was Gravity Control he would look something like this:

Minion:
Standard: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion.
Hard: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field.
Extreme: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Propel.

Lieutentant:
Standard: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion.
Hard: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Propel.
Extreme: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Propel, Gravity Distortion Field, Dimension Shift.

Boss
Standard: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Propel
Hard: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Propel, Gravity Distortion Field, Dimension Shift, Wormhole.
Extreme: Crush, Lift, Gravity Distortion, Crushing Field, Propel, Gravity Distortion Field, Dimension Shift, Wormhole, Singularity.

The numbers could use a bit of tweaking, but I think in essence "the system" works very well in my opinion.

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Someone earlier mentioned a Super Strength/Dual Blades critter. How would that work?

I had a Super Strength/Dark Miasma critter on test also; how would that come out?

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Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

Among other things, I think the whole standard/hard/extreme tier thing is just insufficient.

What I'd like to see is 'variant' forms, like Dark Armor optimized for stealth and neg resistance, Dark Armor optimized for damage aura and control, etc.

(I'd also like a pony)

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(QR)

Seeing the side-effects of all this, I have to wonder what happened to the other idea that I often heard mentioned?
Why not change all AE Critter anti-Mez into Resistance instead of Protection?
If that was good enough to balance all the sets in PVP, why can't that fix work for AE, too?

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let me put my 2 cents in if i may.....

whatever we say and complain about in this thread is useless. i hate to sound negitive but the dev's when doing something do not reverse it. i'm sick and tired myself with nerfs being done about every day it seems. i have been in game for 5 years since may 1/04 and seen lots of changes and said "o what can you do?" well its time we do something. i'm thinking this post will get removed from this thread for what i'm about to say here even though free speach is something we value but not allways honor. (you know who you are in this thread without saying the name will do his best to remove this)

we all must protest in game, we have emotes to help us too. lets all gather in a zone and send constant tells to the GM's and dev's and say enuff is enuff, let us play the game the way we want because we pay to play it. the "anti-farmers" are the ones to blame for all this crap with the nerfing, why are they the only ones that are listened too? the day someone else pays my account, thats the day i'll take what happens. if you like to farm like i do for the massive mobs i take down and challenge myself to see how many more i can get without dying.

another thing we can do as a band of players together to make them listen to the paying player is if you have your account on a credit card for auto payment, take it off. everyone cancell the auto payment so no more money goes there way and then the numbers will drop for what they think the fan base ison revenue. there is another game to be released which i will not say the name that may take away many players. if they want us to stay loyal like i have been then they must listen to all of us and not only the ones who complain constantly about farming and such.

my whole arc is now ruined for people to play and i've been getting hate mail about it because of the dark/dark i have in custom critters. not my fauklt the arc is now too hard to play and i'll never get my badges if the arc is constantly quit by people trying it.

so what do you all think about in game protests to speak our minds and let them know we are having fun doing what we want. since i14 i do not think i will ever go back to in game mishs as doing them over for some time i know what they are and bored. sorry but thats my opion if doing such things as Frostfire etc.

another point to those who hate farming is the ITF is a farm. i mean when people do it from 45 to 50 over a few times to get their 50 as fast as they can it is farming no matter how you look at it so why complain about those who rince, wash, and repeat?

i just hope you all can see my point and sorry about the rant as i've had enuff of the B S that keeps hitting the fan around here and i hope some of you agree, if not that is your opinion like this is mine.

now for a in game sit in , any ideas or does anyone want to help organize them with me? send me an in game e-mail or tell and lets see what we can do about this in a respectable way to make our voice heard and not a whinning match.

so i say to the mod's or whoever is reading this to leave it alone, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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@Canadian Canuck @Canadian Canuck2

Fine with me, but one issue at a time (lol right).

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Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

[ QUOTE ]
Someone earlier mentioned a Super Strength/Dual Blades critter. How would that work?

[/ QUOTE ]
With the patch it would be pretty monsterous. On the LOWEST difficulty as a boss, they'd have:

Jab
Punch
Haymaker
Knockout Blow
Hurl
Nimble Slash
Power Slice
Ablating Strike
Throwing Knives
Vengeful Slice
Sweeping Strike

So, 11 attacks total, 2 being ranged, several that are high damage or more.

As Laz said earlier, we would prefer the ability to start from a baseline minimum and just be able to add on top, BUT, if we're stuck with the tiers system, we need more tiers. In the interests of covering all bases, here's a proposal for a system that doubles the tiers.

This would involve each setting having a "utility" option. So the ranks would be Standard, Standard (Utility), Hard, Hard (Utility), Extreme, and Extreme (Utility). The idea would be to give critters different roles with the powers available. One could make a weak minion that has some debuff/mez/self protect powers, or a high damage enemy that doesn't have any special abilities. Let me give some examples.

Super Strength (Standard)
Jab
Punch
Hurl

Super Strength (Standard Utility)
Jab
Punch
Hurl
Handclap

Super Strength (Hard)
Jab
Punch
Haymaker
Hurl

Super Strength (Hard Utility)
Jab
Punch
Haymaker
Hurl
Handclap

Super Strength (Extreme)
Jab
Punch
Haymaker
Knockout Blow
Hurl
Footstomp

Super Strength (Extreme Utility)
Jab
Punch
Haymaker
Knockout Blow
Hurl
Rage
Footstomp
Handclap

Another example:

Martial Arts (Standard)
Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Shuriken

Martial Arts (Standard Utility)
Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Shuriken
Cobra Strike

Martial Arts (Hard)
Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Shuriken
Crane Kick

Martial Arts (Hard Utility)
Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Shuriken
Crane Kick
Cobra Strike
Crippling Axe Kick

Martial Arts (Extreme)
Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Shuriken
Crane Kick
Eagles Claw
Dragon's Tail

Martial Arts (Extreme Utility)
Thunder Kick
Storm Kick
Shuriken
Crane Kick
Eagles Claw
Cobra Strike
Focus Chi
Crippling Axe Kick
Dragon's Tail

A defense set:

Willpower (Standard)
High Pain Tolerance
Mind Over Body
Fast Healing
Heightened Senses

Willpower (Standard Utility)
High Pain Tolerance
Mind Over Body
Fast Healing
Heightened Senses
Quick Recovery

Willpower (Hard)
High Pain Tolerance
Mind Over Body
Fast Healing
Heightened Senses
Rise to the Challenge

Willpower (Hard Utility)
High Pain Tolerance
Mind Over Body
Fast Healing
Heightened Senses
Rise to the Challenge
Quick Recovery
Indomitable Will

Willpower (Extreme)
High Pain Tolerance
Mind Over Body
Fast Healing
Heightened Senses
Rise to the Challenge
Strength of Will

Willpower (Extreme Utility)
High Pain Tolerance
Mind Over Body
Fast Healing
Heightened Senses
Rise to the Challenge
Quick Recovery
Indomitable Will
Resurgence
Strength of Will

Dark Armor (Standard)
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud

Dark Armor (Standard Utility)
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Cloak of Darkness

Dark Armor (Hard)
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Death Shroud

Dark Armor (Hard Utility)
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Death Shroud
Cloak of Darkness
Obsidian Shield

Dark Armor (Extreme)
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Death Shroud
Dark Regeneration

Dark Armor (Extreme Utility)
Dark Embrace
Murky Cloud
Death Shroud
Dark Regeneration
Cloak of Darkness
Oppressive Gloom
Obsidian Shield
Soul Transfer

Buff/Debuff:

Dark Miasma (Standard)
Tar Patch

Dark Miasma (Standard Utility)
Darkest Night
Tar Patch

Dark Miasma (Hard)
Petrifying Gaze
Tar Patch
Fearsome Stare

Dark Miasma (Hard Utility)
Darkest Night
Petrifying Gaze
Shadowfall
Tar Patch
Fearsome Stare

Dark Miasma (Extreme)
Petrifying Gaze
Twilight Grasp
Tar Patch
Fearsome Stare
Dark Servant

Dark Miasma (Extreme Utility)
Darkest Night
Petrifying Gaze
Twilight Grasp
Shadowfall
Tar Patch
Fearsome Stare
Dark Servant

Empathy (Standard)
Heal Other

Empathy (Standard Utility)
Heal Other
Clear Mind

Empathy (Hard)
Heal Other
Healing Aura

Empathy (Hard Utility)
Heal Other
Healing Aura
Fortitude
Clear Mind

Empathy (Extreme)
Heal Other
Healing Aura
Recovery Aura

Empathy (Extreme Utility)
Heal Other
Healing Aura
Fortitude
Recovery Aura
Clear Mind

Keep in mind I made these in like... 20 minutes, so may not be up to everyone's standards. But it would give a lot more flexibility compared to what the proposed change is going to give. I still believe letting us pick individual powers starting from a defined minimum would be the best solution, though.

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[ QUOTE ]
i hate to sound negitive but the dev's when doing something do not reverse it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, just like how we have to deal with those gutted Epic Pools, or how there's still an AE building in Croatoa? Right?

And reality check: The Devs aren't listening to the anti-farmers whisper in their ear to nerf this or nerf that. The Devs are anti-farmers. This was quite evident from when Positron explicitly said "The MA is not for farming."

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Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!

*kicks thread*

We won:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13411167

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[ QUOTE ]
*kicks thread*

We won:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post13411167

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... ok sure, we won.

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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I don't think a single enemy outside of the MA has any kind of build up power.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few do, although the only ones that come to mind off the top of my head are red-side (I'm thinking of Silver Mantis in particular). Its extremely rare, though.

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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually I don't think a single enemy outside of the MA has any kind of build up power.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few do, although the only ones that come to mind off the top of my head are red-side (I'm thinking of Silver Mantis in particular). Its extremely rare, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I know, Silver Mantis is the only unit that has BU or Aim. She's of course an AV. Since MA though, I've seen lots of lieutenants with BU that can make my head spin.

Black Scorpion also uses Rage. He's an AV too of course. Can't think of anything else that uses such powers though.

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Now, onto the next subject: What should be the minimums for each powerset at each rank?

---

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

[ QUOTE ]
Now, onto the next subject: What should be the minimums for each powerset at each rank?

[/ QUOTE ]
Probably the old Standard, with a few small tweaks? Some examples I can think of:

* Stone and SS both have high damage attacks in addition to Hurl/Hurl Boulder (which are high damage attacks). Just the first two attacks plus Hurl would be fine.

* Cobra Strike should be taken off Martial Arts. Every single minion having a stun is kind of nuts. Add in enemies who also have SS, Stone, and Energy Melee and stuns run rampant.

* Buckshot off AR. It already gets Burst and Slug, and even lieutenants with guns up until like 20 only have one attack, while a custom minion would have three, including an AoE. Sheesh!

For each attack set, the minimums should probably be 2-3 attacks, nothing extreme, maybe one high damage attack like Bone Smasher or Haymaker, but nothing crazy.

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On the subject of Build-Up powers: Bone Daddies have Soul Drain.

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Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!

I'm not declaring victory until the changes on Test are gone and the new system is in place. As long as there is any chance of these current changes going live I'll be on alert. I don't want this kludge ruining my missions and others while we wait for Issue 15 to arrive Soon(tm).

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[ QUOTE ]
(QR)

Seeing the side-effects of all this, I have to wonder what happened to the other idea that I often heard mentioned?
Why not change all AE Critter anti-Mez into Resistance instead of Protection?
If that was good enough to balance all the sets in PVP, why can't that fix work for AE, too?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be so welcoming of ANY of the pvp changes into the pve game. You open the door for one and next thing you know it will bring all its friends.

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They NEVER said what was on Test now wasn't going Live. I'm expecting something like it to go live.

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Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!