All of my MA time has been focused on my all-MA n00b 'troller, so I haven't had a chance to look at the Victory arcs yet.
I have played around 11 or 12 MA arcs, and most of them have been three-star worthy. Okay, but nothing to write home about. The one arc I did give five stars had a great story, and that's really the only thing that separated it from the rest.
After being on a PUG the other night with Baryonic Cell, I know now why people hate custom mobs. Most are just annoying... Stalkers... MMs... .Stormies... anything with a debuff and an offensive set. Maybe it's because I'm only lvl 10, but the one thing I thought was the best part of MA content is turning out to be the worst.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
What does this mean to you?
[ QUOTE ]
Either a bug or a setting that isn't saving
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll make sure to add allies that do the job for you from now on. Thank you for your input. I'll refrain from posting information that has been sent to me in regard to extra comments you've made. I'm glad I can count on your reading comprehension to elicit an actual conversation.
I've already forgotten about most of you
Mental: From what I'm doing, I'm not even thinking about lower levels. There is no easy way to limit the levels without resorting to putting a level-capped mob. That's something that needs to be fixed IMO.
If I see "levels 1 - 54", I'm assuming it's meant for high characters. I have zero interest in exemping down on my main MA guy; I want to play him as a finished character.
Are you seeking out misisons that are specifically for lower levels?
I've already forgotten about most of you
[ QUOTE ]
Are you seeking out misisons that are specifically for lower levels?
[/ QUOTE ]
I am. On top of that, unless I have some idea of what the Custom groups are, I avoid arcs with custom mobs. What this means is that I've fought about a billion Skulls and Hellions.
Reasonable custom groups can be made, "The Land of Oz" had some decent flying monkies and the Winkie guards that are doable.
In general I assume that a 1-54 arc is meant for 30+ characters.
Keep in mind I mostly solo as well. On a team a lot of this would be much easier. I'm not 3 starring arcs because they're too hard, though. Most of them are just mediocre.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Figured most wouldn't put a lot of thought into balance for custom mobs for lower levels, that's why I've had no intent on trying to level a guy just on MA stuff.
I think if they fixed/added the ability to specify the actual level, without resorting to inserting a generic group to do it for you, you'd see better/less annoying lower level MA missions.
Good luck 
I've already forgotten about most of you
FWIW Voodoo, when I changed around my custom mobs I was forced to depublish and republish my arc to have the changes actually take effect. That's why its arc ID is so high, even though I originally published it on the day I14 went live. Changing the mobs in the mission and just republishing didn't do the trick for me.
Voo, I haven't played your arc since you revised/republished it (I panicked and thought I had republished last night too when I was editing mine for a couple typos that slipped by me somehow... they really need to rephrase that button), but I thought the mobs were a fun challenge.
Acc debuffs are a pain, and are a source of annoyance for a lot of players, so some may react to them differently. I personally thought yours were a good challenge, that had my Tanker using his hold a lot (he doesn't do that much except for Sappers anymore)... and actually wishing it would recharge faster.
As for the "details" like descriptions, Kong is being consistent with that. He likes the extras that are there with dev created stuff. Some can do without those details, of course, but not having them can detract from things. I don't know how much you revised after I played it, but the biggest thing I wanted more out of your arc was more story details and background. Descriptions can do that for the players that want it.
I think I gave your arc a 4 when I played it, because it was a fun challenge to me. I felt a little iffy, as I wanted more story details, but it sounded like you were going to work on those more.
Heh, now for your "forumite mission," those mobs are a little over the top. They were hitting me worse than the Cimerorans do, and the end drain those archers have is way over the top to my mind, especially if there are more than one (I think getting hit by one of those drained half my end bar or so... 40-60 end in one power is a lot). It was an interesting challenge for me, Viv, and Yuuden, and I didn't mind it too much, but it did feel like a bit much, especially since it was a funny mission (couldn't focus much on what forumites were saying because the mobs were so tough).
So there, some more food for thought. I think you do a fairly good job with your custom mobs- they do provide a different challenge, if over the top sometimes (and then not nearly as bad as some I have seen).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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That's the problem with this whole rating thing, people clearly have different ideas of what makes a good arc, enemy group, etc. Some people are being serious, some goofy, etc. when making their mission. And from what I can tell, they don't always describe their arc well, or it may not even be read well by the audience playing the arc.
However, what I think most are looking for from MA missions (unless they're a farmer) is not all that different from dev created missions. They don't mind a challenge if they're warned, but people will also want missions that can be soloable.
Though to your question, Viv, if I'm going to consider an arc well done and thought out, it does need detail everywhere. I'd be a bit annoyed with the devs if they put out an arc with a new group that didn't have a good story, descriptions for the bosses and characters, etc. Anything else shows something that was slapped together or at least not as much thought was put into it.
That doesn't mean no one will play it, but with how much content is out there, I think people not willing to put that work in and missions without that kind of detail are going to go by the wayside. I think there will still be room for fun little one-off missions, though. Like your little arc about roleplayers on Virtue, you probably don't need to have descriptions that are super detailed. However, you had such great humor with that final catgirl boss's dialogue that I think you could add a description that would be quite hilarious.
One last little example. Yuuden picked up on the overall storyline/point of my arc last night, but there is a lot more details that can make you think about the line between justice and vengeance. You don't NEED to seem them to have fun beating up the Warriors and getting the overall story, but having good details there do make an arc better (though I'll let others say whether my details and arc are "good"). CoX is full of great details the devs added in: passing citizens cheer on my heroes ("You rock, Swedish Fury!"), give humor (says a Nemesis soldier to another mob "Nemesis is down with the hood, as it were"), etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's what I've basically been doing for ratings:
1-star -- no effort placed into the arc, or it's clearly just a farming arc (yes, farming is auto 1-star). Dialogue (if it even exists) is awful. Created enemies are done simply to destroy other players with no attempt at balance.
2-star -- Just a step above a 1-star. Some effort was put in but the arc is just completely unoriginal. How many "see if you can beat my character" arcs do we actually need?
3-star -- An average arc, but nothing that's going to stand out. It might have some decent writing, but it's fairly unappealing and unoriginal. May contain multiple problems with custom MOBs, lots of typos, etc.
4-star -- a solid arc that is about on par with what the Devs do. This also might be a good story that has a fatal flaw somewhere in there (i.e. escortee is too fragile, end villain is unpossible to defeat) that could easily be tweaked. It could be a fun story that I'd easily recommend to others to check out.
5-star -- it doesn't need a be the BEST ARC EVAR, but it needs to be fully fleshed out, make sense, be fun, and obviously been tested and balanced. Dialogue is full written and engaging, and the arc also should not deviate from CoX lore (i.e. "Statesman is really a Rikti!"). I really don't look at character descriptions too often, so this isn't one of the details I care that much about (and frankly it will be the first thing I eliminate if I'm butting up against the file size cap).
I do NOT remove points for obvious bugs or problems with wonky AI, etc. If the problem can be blamed on the game engine, it's not the author's fault.
Examples of why I removed points from some arcs:
--Had a solid arc of three missions with a decent but simple story (it was looking like a solid 4-star). The villain groups seemed pretty decent until I got to the final EB. The EB was an "Illusion Dominator" and all of his flunkies were Illusion users set to extreme. The final room quickly filled with dozens of Phantom Armies, Phantasms, Spectral Terrors and I got spammed with Confuse and Blind powers. (This is something that would easily have been caught and fixed if the author had tested it.)
--Another story where I had to venture into a custom group (not too dissimilar from the Carnival of Shadows) and had to meet up with someone, rescue him, and then lead him out. The only problem was the rescuee was a lieutenant with +perc powers and he frequently charged across the map into combat. Needless to say he was dead within 15 seconds of his rescue. (This is something that would have been noticed and easily fixed if the author had tested it.)
To aspiring authors...TEST YOUR ARCS. I spent two days debugging an arc of mine before I put it live. I'm not sure if I'll ever write one that is that epic again because of the time involved, but I learned a lot of stuff by going through the testing process. I had many scripted encounters that didn't flow properly that had to be tweaked (and retweaked). It was worth the effort to make sure it all worked out properly.
Also, make sure you label your arc properly in the description. If the arc is meant to be a challenge, make sure the playerbase is aware of this.
Things that I learned that I was disappointed by:
--Anti-Matter and Tyrant are currently not available for stories.
--Poison and Traps are not available for Master Mind custom characters.
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
[ QUOTE ]
The Middle EB was also a pain to fight because he kept popping his Tier 9, on his EB hitpoints. :/
Combined with the ambushes that would triple stack Fearsome Stare and an ally that died in literally 30 seconds it was a tough fight. I had to go back and stock up on breakfrees. It was kind of like fighting Hamidon. You'd get him down to a quarter and the big ambush (5 or 6 Lts, a few minions) would show up, and you'd have to stop to fight them, while you're doing that, RttC is healing the EB back to full so you have to beat him down again for the next ambush, and even when you're beating on him he's popping his Tier 9 regularly to drag the fight out even longer. It was a long fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oddly enough I didn't have this problem on my Warshade, but I played it the first day out. Only issue was one of the EBs was a little of a pain to beatdown, but it wasn't the necro. And with the exception of the ally being a tard. But I thought voodoo had found a way to program special AI to replicate himself.
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
Another note: When testing your arc, try it with at least a couple of different characters. Sometimes you won't notice something on your first playthrough (or a bug won't manifest) because your character masks it.
I tend to go into arcs optimistic and work more on a demerit system:
Demerits can be awarded for:
1. 2 lines of text for the mission sendoffs "I need you to go kill some guys, ok? I think they're in a building or something."
2. Poorly thought out/incomplete custom groups (only one kind of minion? and it's just a PPD guy? No Lts at all? Custom mobs with jeans/t-shirt costumes, generic names, and no description?)
3. "Excessive" custom mobs. Oh wow, every LT can one-shot a stone tank and everybody has Rad and Dark debuffs...
4. Storylines that I can't figure out. I'm not a dumb guy (despite what some people may think), and if I can't figure out what you're trying to say in the mission text you're not going to get good marks. Frequently this appears to be a result of people trying out different things with the MA (different objectives, chain objectives, etc...) then trying to shoehorn in a story at the last minute. Farming missions get massive demarks in this area, although I've only run into one mission so far that I think was a farming mission (Nothing but bosses that had nothing but melee attacks on an outdoor mission and basically no text).
5. Excessive time wasting glowie hunts/hostages/escorts. If you're putting more than a handful of glowies in a mission stop and ask yourself "Are people going to enjoy playing a 'find 33 bombs in Orenbenga' mission?". These aren't TFs, there's no need to pad them out for length.
Basically, you are going to lose stars if at any point I go "this is bullcrap". Be it from the story, or from the mobs/map design.
That said, there are some things that score bonus points for me, including witty or humorous text, particularly well designed storylines, and well designed custom groups. Good map selection also helps. Clever use of the objectives to actually make the mission exciting is nice as well: Case in point: The last mission of Calash's arc.
Pilgrim: Regarding the forum mission mobs, yeah, they're supposed to be annoying throughout for a reason. Other than being completely obvious, was the only way to convey the theme of the group 
And this is another problem with the AI, specifically for flyers like those LTs. The intention was that they would FLY AWAY and just rain down arrows, but they aren't doing that. The only "melee" they have is that end drain (I want them to have a defensive secondary) and so they are staying in melee for some reason. That's beyond stupid IMO. If they are stacking up while in teams, I'll consider another option, but I don't think that'll fix the AI.
I've already forgotten about most of you
This entire thread makes me sad. Everyone is of course entitled to his or her own opinions and to state them publically if he/she chooses. However, I feel this thread is going to cause nothing but hard feelings for people who have put a lot of thought and effort into their work. Also, it is going to discourage people from playing certain arcs... oh it was only given a 2?!? I'll skip that one. I'd much rather see in depth critiques delivered to each person rather than in such a public way.
I'm sure other people feel this way, but I will probably be the only one to voice this. As a last thought, don't play my arc please, you won't like it.
~*~Madame Pistacio~*~
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Newest event- The Great Makeover
It is a difficult bridge to cross. Public praise is a very high form of flattery and can inspire an Author to work harder. As you noted Public disapproval can be seen as humiliation, demoralizing, and painful to an Author who put a lot of effort into a work.
Do the benefits of public praise outweigh the negative effects that can come with public critique?
Personally I take both as they are meant to be, forms of feedback to help improve. Grey_pilgrim played my arc a while back and privately gave me some very good pointers. Had they been public I would have taken it as such and still worked to improve the arc (Thanks BTW, you helped me kill some nasty bugs and balance the encounters).
Of course I can not expect others to approach critique with the same eye as I do. Some are more sensitive to such comments than others. However, if you list your arc publicly are you not asking for a public response?
Thanks for the positive feedback Kong, I am glad you enjoyed the arc . I know I have some spell checking left to do and hope to have it mostly cleaned up at some point this week.
[ QUOTE ]
However, if you list your arc publicly are you not asking for a public response?
[/ QUOTE ]
In a simple word, no. Some people posted their arc just so that people on Victory would know they had one, so that it would not be lost in a sea of 10 thousand other arcs. Some people wanted the praise or critique. Some people just want to learn HOW to make an arc. And some just want the tickets for the badges. If someone specifically asks for comments, then by all means, comment away, but I do not think that is what people were all looking for.
~*~Madame Pistacio~*~
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Guardian of CHRYSALIS
Victory Limitless- /chanjoin "Victory Limitless"
P.E.R.C. First Chair- P.E.R.C. Site, Victory Over Hamidon
Newest event- The Great Makeover
[ QUOTE ]
Personally I take both as they are meant to be, forms of feedback to help improve
[/ QUOTE ]
As do I, regardless how one insists that it's anything else. But as I have tried expressing/pointing out, it's the reasoning behind the critique that doesn't gel with me.
If my questioning the critique isn't accetable (critiquing the critique so to speak) how am I to judge the merit of the critique? *shrug*
I've already forgotten about most of you
[ QUOTE ]
This entire thread makes me sad. Everyone is of course entitled to his or her own opinions and to state them publically if he/she chooses. However, I feel this thread is going to cause nothing but hard feelings for people who have put a lot of thought and effort into their work. Also, it is going to discourage people from playing certain arcs... oh it was only given a 2?!? I'll skip that one. I'd much rather see in depth critiques delivered to each person rather than in such a public way.
I'm sure other people feel this way, but I will probably be the only one to voice this. As a last thought, don't play my arc please, you won't like it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even negative feedback is feedback. I'm pretty sure nobody's even played my arc, or at least nobody rated it if they did
[ QUOTE ]
Even negative feedback is feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Too hard. You suck. Make it better"
By all means, use that to improve your arc.
I've already forgotten about most of you
At some point, a critique is a critique. You take what you can/want to from it, and leave it at that. It probably would be better to have another thread where people discuss what a good mission is to them, get a dialogue going, etc.
I dunno. I don't mind discussing other's arcs with them and even with others, but I'm thinking a review thread is not a good thing for me to use... I'll probably just keep it to private interactions, I think.
Pistachio, I understand where you are coming from and feel the same way, to some extent. However, review, stars, etc. are going to be used and even needed by people. When I published my arc (a week and a half after the MA came out), it was in the 88000s... even though some of those numbers are apparently arcs that were published and then removed, that is a LOT of content. People already couldn't play all the content 1-50 made by the devs, and they used other people's reviews (nothing official usually, but word gets around) to decide if they wanted to do something or not.
The MA list here on the Victory forums is great so we can see what our fellow forumites are doing, but even that is getting long... I haven't been able to keep up with it, as I want to play regular missions, too. Reviews and word of mouth are inevitable with any type of content a person can view, play, etc.
The best you can do is describe your arc well, and hope that your audience was paying attention to that description. Even then it's not enough. Take the movie A Knight's Tale. Clearly, using "Low Rider" as music in a tale set in the medieval ages is anachronistic and for fun. But a lot of critics panned the movie for doing so... which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. *shrugs* Such is the creative and reviewing world.
*added*
If your arc is in the Victory list, Life Guardian, I and a few others will get to it eventually. It just takes a bit, with regular content, MA content made of dev choice, SGmates, and forumite missions, etc.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, if you list your arc publicly are you not asking for a public response?
[/ QUOTE ]
In a simple word, no. Some people posted their arc just so that people on Victory would know they had one, so that it would not be lost in a sea of 10 thousand other arcs. Some people wanted the praise or critique. Some people just want to learn HOW to make an arc. And some just want the tickets for the badges. If someone specifically asks for comments, then by all means, comment away, but I do not think that is what people were all looking for.
[/ QUOTE ]
I posted mine so people could give it a go maybe I could see what they thought of it. So far it has been run and starred enough to net me 120 tickets and has 5 stars. Don't know what that means, but someone liked it, or I'd have zero tickets. My arc starts are seemingly simple and ramps up toward the end to a pretty difficult climax. It took me a bit of tweaking, but as of last night we were able to complete the arc without a bunch of builds that costs billions. Many of the testers that helped me requested that I don't lower the difficulty at all, which made me think. Who is my target audience? How can I get those people to play without getting the people that want a walk in the park to play too? Currently there is no real way to do that except by putting warning where it ill be read in he initial mission descript.
If Kong runs my arc, he'll be no doubt annoyed by the first mission, as its a large map, it appears to be a farm, and has multiple glowies. Its only by playing the arc and reading the text that there is a story behind it all. Why is the first mission basically all the same mob? Because I wanted it to be and after testing it with the current primary setup it gave the proper feel to the mission. Everything is pretty simple if you're careful, but the moment you start taking it for granted you die. Missions 2, 3, and 4 are pretty straightforward, slowly ramping up in difficulty, mission 5, you will need a team because there is an AV. I feel its commiserate with some of the material I've been through by the CoH dev team. I still catch errors here and there that I fix ongoing, but then again who still hasn't seen BOSS_NAME in a mission lately as well? :P
I'll be happy if others here enjoy the arc, but the arc made my target group very happy and that was all I really set out to accomplish.
I just wish there was a way for you to rate your own arc on difficulty that was searchable. That would help further narrow things down to players that want a challenge that scales up.
I am also making a second version of the same arc that will be for twinked out builds only. Because really, how many times can you mow through the same content over and over again saying. Well, that was just too easy. MA allows people to build missions that aren't scaled to the least common denominator. We just need a way in search to better denote that you're not going to be able to solo this on your concept build.
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
The biggest problem I see in all this is the inconsistency of critiques. I have seen many arc get a bad critiques because it could not be soloed by a controller or dominator, which has no bareing what so ever on my enjoyment as I wouldn't solo anything with those ATs. From my perspective, soloable for a dominator equals boring for a brute. Obviously my position on this is biased.
If folks want to value open critigues, we need a common ground by which to look at these, which isn't likely to happen. The game has a built in critigue system, what's wrong with just using it?
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
And on the other hand I've seen missions that are nothing more than a Farmers Market be unanimously 5-starred and up at the top of the listings. (I quickly fixed that.)
Arc# 92382 -- "The S.P.I.D.E.R. and the Tyrant" -- Ninjas! Robots! Praetorians! It's totally epic! Play it now!
Arc # 316340 -- "Husk" -- Azuria loses something, a young woman harbors a dark secret, and the fate of the world is in your hands.
I'd imagine by other farmers and/or badgers.
Is there any incentive to star at all? Devs always manage to squeak in one aspect that really kills an otherwise fantastic feature IMO.
I'd love a regular "favorite" tag and be done with it; no badge/rating/public use whatsoever.
I've already forgotten about most of you
What the Vudu kicked my butt! Had to laugh because I /tell Voodoo and he said, "Didn't my namesake help out?" Yes, until his butt got kicked too.
me = phail!
Still need to try again on a lower setting. (And my problem was all my own as I couldn't pump out the damage fast enough to knock down the EBs.)
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
My philosophy regarding allies in missions: They are there to help/flesh out stories, not do the work for you. That's why I tend to make them Bosses (and in some cases LTs ). If I wanted to run around with a bunch of EBs or AVs on my side, why do I need to be there at all? And I will never EVER make the requirement to keep them alive because that's one of the dumbest features evar.
I've found, using my scrapper of all things, is that if you know how to work the AI, all the helpers I've tossed into missions (as Boss levels fighting EBs and AVs) stick around through the whole thing and do actually help. If you're a buffer/debuffer, those allies are unkillable right off the bat.
Sorry Peter. Fire/Ice Blasters aren't uber 
I've already forgotten about most of you
The Middle EB was also a pain to fight because he kept popping his Tier 9, on his EB hitpoints. :/
Combined with the ambushes that would triple stack Fearsome Stare and an ally that died in literally 30 seconds it was a tough fight. I had to go back and stock up on breakfrees. It was kind of like fighting Hamidon. You'd get him down to a quarter and the big ambush (5 or 6 Lts, a few minions) would show up, and you'd have to stop to fight them, while you're doing that, RttC is healing the EB back to full so you have to beat him down again for the next ambush, and even when you're beating on him he's popping his Tier 9 regularly to drag the fight out even longer. It was a long fight.