Hall of Fame is not realistically attainable
By
Amberyl,
Posted on: 2009-04-09 21:10 in Mission Architect
BEGIN THE PILE ON!!!!!!
Hall of Fame is rare, not unattainable. It's supposed to be rare. Mission accomplished (well, other than the extra arc being fickle).
Most of the people who have touched the MA are making missions and pimping their own rather than just seeing what is out there. I actually see the voting numbers going up as time goes on, making HoF easier to get.
Not easy. Easier.
The guy who got this first HoF mission is a popular enough guy amongst us goons, but there are only around 100 of us or so playing at any given time (more have played, but I'm trying to be realistic and conservative here). So let's say he got 100 gimme votes as we were promoting our own. He still got another 900+ from people he probably has never and will never come across in-game.
It got that because it had a nice initial push and then the more people that played it and thought it was entertaining, the more people they told, and so on.
So in that first week when everybody was playing with the system because they wanted to make their own missions, we still got our first HoF. In, say, 3 months when everybody has their 3 arcs published, all the content unlocked, and their missions tweaked, there will be a lot more people actually playing MA content than there are now.
Once everyone is playing other peoples' arcs instead of playing their own we'll see them happen more often. Around 50 a year was a conservative estimate, even if things don't change. Between devs picking some out and the ever-increasing number of people playing instead of building, I wouldn't be surprised to see that number quadruple or more by this time next year.
And you know what? That's fine by me. It is entirely attainable, but difficult and unlikely.
Let's face it, a lot of people want it to be easier to attain because they have this sense of entitlement where they firmly believe that their content is just as great as the ones getting all the votes out there. They are just so damn sure that they are making grade A content that no amount of 1-starring will convince them otherwise.
You know what? They're wrong.
If you get a HoF mission, then it's probably really entertaining. If you don't, that doesn't mean the problem lies with the system.
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I asked a question. You didn't answer it. How many HoF arcs are up right now? 1 in a week? Please, I've been playing this game long enough to know that THAT small of a number is microscopic. How quickly did we have a level capped hero at game launch? How 'bout a villain? How quickly did we get a level 50 VEAT? The only one of those that took longer than a week was the first, and that's only because nobody yet knew how to game the system. MArc gaming has been pretty obvious since the get-go.
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You can have a level 50 VEAT by sitting in the basement playing without sleeping until it happens whether you're good at the game or not.
Getting HoF actually requires the rest of the community to do something besides pad your missions and maybe, if they're a personal friend of yours, bring you some more donuts.
The two don't even come close to correlating.
A better comparison would be how long it took for people to reliably raid Hamidon (more than a week), defeat the Recluse Strike Force (more than a week) or other things that require something more than just playing a whole lot.
So it's attainable. Now let's talk about how easy it is (or not) for even a very popular arc to keep that status (for longer than an hour or two) under the current rating system, shall we?
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
I saw the whole flux-unfriendly thing in action; someone (I expect he'll be along soon enough to provide details) was alternating between one-star and five-star ratings on the HoF arc just to show how easy it was to de-HoF it. I forget what he left it as.
It does strike me as bizarre that one can lose HoF status, but I don't know if one can lose the associated slot along with it. That would be a nightmare to sort out, I would think.
Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
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My guess? We'll see a HoF arc within a week.
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Called it.
That doesn't invalidate the thread though...there's some problems with having a fluctuating HoF, and I don't particularly like that. Although, if it's hovering at HoF status, by tomorrow it should be pretty solid one way or another.
When I logged on, it had Hall of Fame. The next time I checked, it didn't. Looking through the console, it had received:
35 Fives
8 Fours
4 Threes
8 'unknown'
The thirty-sixth Five vote put it back in the Hall of Fame for most of the day, but it's back out again now.
I had gotten half way through making another arc, but I lost the slot again and kind of lost interest.
Aw, you mean you don't want to be our guinea pig for what happens to that fourth arc when HoF goes away, and then comes back? 
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
If I get Hall of Fame back any time today, I'll put an arc up called Schrodinger's Arc to see what happens when it goes again.
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Okay, apparently arcs that enter the Hall of Fame can lose that rating due to down-votes (I'm now back in the Hall of Fame, but probably not for long). I have the extra publishing slot so long as the arc remains in the Hall of Fame, but once it's voted out, I lose the extra slot.
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If this is working as intended, then it's insanity gone mad (possibly hyperbolic, that, but i like using the phrase
).
HoF should lock once its acheived, in my opinion. If the Devs intend fot it to NOT lock, then I can't believe that they mean for the extra slot to vanish too. I'd believe that's a bug rather than think that's what they want.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I liked Muu's earlier thought that it should, at the least, go into a "former HoF" status or something. That way, if the arc is actually terrible and it was just a giant voting block or something it doesn't keep the status unfairly, but it also gets recognized for having at least 1000 5 star votes at one point.
I imagine this would also solve the "You have access to a fourth arc, you don't" status.
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Okay, apparently arcs that enter the Hall of Fame can lose that rating due to down-votes (I'm now back in the Hall of Fame, but probably not for long). I have the extra publishing slot so long as the arc remains in the Hall of Fame, but once it's voted out, I lose the extra slot.
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If this is working as intended, then it's insanity gone mad (possibly hyperbolic, that, but i like using the phrase ).
HoF should lock once its acheived, in my opinion. If the Devs intend fot it to NOT lock, then I can't believe that they mean for the extra slot to vanish too. I'd believe that's a bug rather than think that's what they want.
Eco.
[/ QUOTE ]I don't think HoF should be locked, but I do think that the author shouldn't ever lose the extra slot.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
HOF missions losing their status is ridiculous.
The bar is high enough that getting over it represents a major achievement and a guarantee of a certain level of quality- where's the logic in 'losing' them at some future date?
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I think they should make the players play the whole arc before they can rate it. Right now I can enter, quit and rate without even reading a word. The votes per hour would go down.
I couldn't care less about the 4th slot. What bothers me is that there are badges attached that are completely dependant on the whims of other players (and Devs).
I KNOW that I'm not creative enough to get the high ratings, and as a badger that bothers the HELL out of me.
I hereby offer my slots to anyone who wants to publish another excellent story arc. The description will clearly state that YOU wrote it, not me, and that I am merely hosting it.
And since the thread title reminded me of something.
Here is a website to help folks with the topic.
Let's Dance!
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HOF missions losing their status is ridiculous.
The bar is high enough that getting over it represents a major achievement and a guarantee of a certain level of quality- where's the logic in 'losing' them at some future date?
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
[/ QUOTE ]Any arc that deserves HoF will keep it regardless of what happens. If HoF can be lost to bad ratings, HoF arcs that achieve that rank through means other than deserving the status will drop off the list.
However, regardless of what happens to the arc, the author should keep the extra slot.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Any arc that deserves HoF will keep it regardless of what happens. If HoF can be lost to bad ratings, HoF arcs that achieve that rank through means other than deserving the status will drop off the list.
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See, I have a very hard time imagining any mission that doesn't "deserve" HoF status getting it, barring some kind of massive outside exodus to bump up the vote or something. Even the "well done" (I use the term lightly) farming missions generally don't get above 100 or so.
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HOF missions losing their status is ridiculous.
The bar is high enough that getting over it represents a major achievement and a guarantee of a certain level of quality- where's the logic in 'losing' them at some future date?
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
[/ QUOTE ]Any arc that deserves HoF will keep it regardless of what happens. If HoF can be lost to bad ratings, HoF arcs that achieve that rank through means other than deserving the status will drop off the list.
However, regardless of what happens to the arc, the author should keep the extra slot.
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Uh, no, see above about people making random votes.
They can make your arc fluctuate above 4.5 and back down and there's nothing you can do about it.
This includes the people who will rate an HOF arc 1 on principle.
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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HOF missions losing their status is ridiculous.
The bar is high enough that getting over it represents a major achievement and a guarantee of a certain level of quality- where's the logic in 'losing' them at some future date?
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
[/ QUOTE ]Any arc that deserves HoF will keep it regardless of what happens. If HoF can be lost to bad ratings, HoF arcs that achieve that rank through means other than deserving the status will drop off the list.
However, regardless of what happens to the arc, the author should keep the extra slot.
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Uh, no, see above about people making random votes.
They can make your arc fluctuate above 4.5 and back down and there's nothing you can do about it.
This includes the people who will rate an HOF arc 1 on principle.
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The flawed assumption being made is that the relative score will instead diverge from normality after reaching a certain point into approaching normality.
Let's Dance!
The differences between the votes you get when you're on the first page, and the votes you get when you drop to four stars and disappear to the back of the database are night and day. If you are on the first page you receive an inordinate amount of sub-3 votes; far, far more than you get when your arc dips to four stars and disappears in to the murky depths of the database. My arc bounces constantly from 4 stars to 5 stars and back again, and it's for precisely this reason.
Most of the people I talk to about this report exactly the same thing, and these include people with extremely good and serious arcs (mine is basically constant bathos and meta-humour garbage, and I can at least see why someone might vote it a 1 or 2 if it really rubbed them the wrong way, but arcs like @jjac's Tangle In Time do not deserve a single vote below 3, at all, ever, and the fact that his arc is now languishing on four stars because of the one-votes it received while on the first page is really tragic.)
I don't think the staying power of a Hall of Fame entry will be dictated by the virtue of the arc in question so much as the spitefulness of whoever happens to be browsing at any given moment, honestly. This is more a failing of the rating system as a whole, though, than with the Hall of Fame specifically. Hall of Fame simply increases visibility, and I suppose the point I'm making is that increased visibility can actually be quite the detriment to your rating, which is the real problem, and I presume is why people want Hall of Fame to be an immutable title.
I'd personally just like to have the fourth publishing slot without worrying I'm going to lose it again before I finish writing the arc.
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I'd personally just like to have the fourth publishing slot without worrying I'm going to lose it again before I finish writing the arc.
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Why not publish a filler, and then keep republishing it? Description could be "work in progress, grabbing the fourth slot while I can."
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Why not publish a filler, and then keep republishing it? Description could be "work in progress, grabbing the fourth slot while I can."
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That could probably work. I'd like to see this solved or answered in one way or another, though, because having to use such a duct-tape solution for the spot disappearing is somewhat ludicrous.
I'd also still like to see, as mentioned, some sort of Hall of Fame section for any and all arcs that ever manage to reach it. If they're honestly and truly terrible and were upvoted by some massive outside exodus, I'd imagine it would be easy enough to police, considering how very few arcs will actually ever get to that stage.
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HOF missions losing their status is ridiculous.
The bar is high enough that getting over it represents a major achievement and a guarantee of a certain level of quality- where's the logic in 'losing' them at some future date?
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
[/ QUOTE ]Any arc that deserves HoF will keep it regardless of what happens. If HoF can be lost to bad ratings, HoF arcs that achieve that rank through means other than deserving the status will drop off the list.
However, regardless of what happens to the arc, the author should keep the extra slot.
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Uh, no, see above about people making random votes.
They can make your arc fluctuate above 4.5 and back down and there's nothing you can do about it.
This includes the people who will rate an HOF arc 1 on principle.
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The flawed assumption being made is that the relative score will instead diverge from normality after reaching a certain point into approaching normality.
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Uh, guy? What do you think "random" means? It means there's no way you can predict what's going to happen. Working assumption is that 30% give random ratings and don't know about 0 stars so they rate a 3 average. This means your arc's at 4.4 if the remaining 70% all rate it 5. If you can get a temporary influx of "sane" people (through word of mouth or whatever) then your arc can crest above 4.5 but after that influx fades the randoms will drag it back down. Or you just get a small stretch of good random luck and you go above 4.5, but then as more people play you hit a bad stretch and drop back down.
I mean, you could make the argument that a hall of fame arc needs constant promotion if it wants to stay hall of fame. I don't think it's a good argument but you could make it. I will continue to say that the steady state of a "perfect" arc is going to be 4.4 or slightly south.
Up with the overworld! Up with exploration! | Want a review of your arc?
My arcs: Dream Paper (ID: 1874) | Bricked Electronics (ID: 2180) | The Bravuran Jobs (ID: 5073) | Backwards Day (ID: 329000) | Operation Fair Trade (ID: 391172)
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Working assumption is that 30% give random ratings and don't know about 0 stars so they rate a 3 average. This means your arc's at 4.4 if the remaining 70% all rate it 5. If you can get a temporary influx of "sane" people (through word of mouth or whatever) then your arc can crest above 4.5 but after that influx fades the randoms will drag it back down. Or you just get a small stretch of good random luck and you go above 4.5, but then as more people play you hit a bad stretch and drop back down.
[/ QUOTE ]You don't need to be above 4.5 to get HoF, you need to be above 4.0.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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That's more of a realistically teaseable goal.
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Its not even that, as a goal would imply some sort of endpoint. I really thought the HoF was supposed to work the same as DC: Once an arc qualifies it is permanently flagged, copied to the arc server, and removed from further editing. This whole bouncing thing is very disturbing.
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