Gravity (Again)

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Well it is true that it was not explicitly stated. However my understanding was he thought that despite Gravity underperforming, it is a fun set and so nothing should be done in regards to its problems. Having read some of his other posts, he doesn't strike me as someone who plays an underpowered set just because he finds it fun, so thats why I spoke out about his TA secondary.

This brings about a question though, can an underpowered set be 'fun' in some peoples opinions?

If the answer is yes, then surely whether a powerset is fun or not is completely irrelevant to whether the set is overpowered/underpowered. It might influence people on whether they are more or less likely to complain about though. A fun, yet underpowered set might find it more difficult to find a voice. Perhaps Gravity falls under this category?

If the answer is no, that underpowered sets are never considered 'fun', then I maintain my original opinion which is that Trick Arrow is a very control heavy secondary for controllers, is would be quite effective in masking any problems Gravity has. The result could be someone who plays Grav/TA or possibly Grav/Storm doesn't find the set so lacking.

Personally, I find 'fun' to be a very subjective term that doesn't really add anything to a discussion on whether a set needs dev attention or not. People can have fun doing some pretty silly and bizarre things, that is very evident ;-)

If you have a read about you will find the general consensus on gravity is that it is a late bloomer, and has at best only average control.

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What I find "fun" about Gravity is to pull most of the enemies with Wormhole to a corner and then start slaughtering them. That's very unique to Gravity experience.

If Wormhole has 20' radius = more fun!!!

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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

I still posit that Gravity is just the slowest maturing set. The problem is you need wormhole slotted heavily for recharge and singy out. Once you have those two things you have much greater control capabilities.

Also, TA and Storm synergize far greater than anything else. The ability to put down damage/debuff fields and pull more enemies into them at will without doing repel-herding is amazing. It's not just about extra controls but about wormhole being more than an aoe hold and the true go-to tool in the set.

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I still posit that Gravity is just the slowest maturing set. The problem is you need wormhole slotted heavily for recharge and singy out. Once you have those two things you have much greater control capabilities.

Also, TA and Storm synergize far greater than anything else. The ability to put down damage/debuff fields and pull more enemies into them at will without doing repel-herding is amazing. It's not just about extra controls but about wormhole being more than an aoe hold and the true go-to tool in the set.

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Don't overlook /Rad's synergy. Damage/debuffs as well, and even better, single-target control of the anchor with a hold and DS to protect it from those annoying "oooh, it glows! kill it!" teammates.

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I really liked the idea of making Lift an AOE. I find this particular fiendish since Grav's Immob doesn't have the -KB component other Controller Immobs have. That would allow you to have some amount of reliable if very soft Control before Wormhole. Lock them down with Crushing Field, keep them more or less on their backs with Lift.

Of course, Lift would have to be moved back in the list (making it AOE would roughly make it the equal of Mind's Terrify) or have its Damage component reduced.

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Very much this!

I'd definately have to roll up a Gravity Control character if Lift became AoE, and perhaps if Wormhole received a little larger radius and faster animation, such as simply the palm out animation.

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Making Lift an AoE would be incredible.

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Should simply make that a petition.

Lift -> AoE -> Now.

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That might be too powerful in their eyes, what I don't understand is why dimension shift is a gravity power. What do different dimensions have to do with gravity? How bout instead it is a medium recharge semi spammable aoe knockdown click? that would be unique, and provide control.

The problems I have with gravity control are that several powers can be counterproductive. I love wormhole, but when you miss one in the teleport (and you're actually trying to move them) then you split the group and confuse people.

Then in dimension shift, it is a seemingly nice power, but again, often some don't intang, and there is absolutely no visible effect for the intangibility (that is really what's ridiculous).

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"Fascinating. I'm not bored at all, I swear." -Kikuchiyo

I'm all with you on Dimension Shift.

But, an AoE Lift would definately be unique, as well as pure awesome. Just imagining lifting 6-8 mobs into the air and slamming them down to the ground at once sounds very fitting for gravity control. Little higher recharge, endurance cost, maybe little lower damage, whatever, it would be pretty epic imo.

Still, I'd be for anything replacing Dimension Shift completely, and seeing Wormhole receive a slightly larger radius, lower cast time as well.

But an AoE Lift... any of you ever play Dawn of War 2? Eldar Farseer's Psychic Storm?

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Replace Dimension Shift with Fold Space.

It might not make the set better, but I'd lol.

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"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

I can't agree enough with the idea of making Dimension Shift a toggle. Think about it, team is looking at a pretty hairy situation, grav troller is like "I'll lock down (more like suppressing them) while you guys carve away on the rest...tell me when you are ready for my group to be unlocked".

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I hate you all. The idea of Lift becoming an AoE inspired me to waste my time fleshing out this; Gravity Manipulation, for Blasters...

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Alternative Dimension Shift proposal

Rather than Dimension Shift being a Foe Intangible power ... make it an Ally Intangible toggle power with a LARGE PBAoE radius. This allows the Gravity Controller the necessary finesse to make this useful on teams. See Nebulous Form for Warshades for already extant mechanics to make this work. Use stealth-y "fade" aura effect for visual cue to players that they themselves are Intangible, along with "Intangible" word on screen above character when effect begins.

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Re-engineer Dimension Shift entirely

Redesign the Dimension Shift power to function like a "super knockUP" (as opposed to knockDOWN or knockBACK) version of Ice Slick (Ice Control). Rename the power Reverse Gravity and make it a Target Location click AoE, Mag 6.25 KnockUP. Power does damage on par with Crushing Field and simply "juggles" Foes in the AoE. Combine with Crushing Field (and Crush) to prevent Foes from escaping the Reverse Gravity AoE.

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Rather than Dimension Shift being a Foe Intangible power ... make it an Ally Intangible toggle power with a LARGE PBAoE radius.

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Very bad idea in the making. Making NPCs unable to be defeated is bad enough, but making it so, as an Ally, I can't defeat ANY NPC or enemy? That's a bad, bad idea right there.

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Redesign the Dimension Shift power to function like a "super knockUP" (as opposed to knockDOWN or knockBACK) version of Ice Slick (Ice Control).

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This one is better, and something I like. I don't see them changing it, but it's a great power idea that I would enjoy. Even if it did no damage, and simply was a location based knockup effect, it would be a good power for a new set.

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Very bad idea in the making. Making NPCs unable to be defeated is bad enough, but making it so, as an Ally, I can't defeat ANY NPC or enemy? That's a bad, bad idea right there.

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As matters exist on live, you have ONE OPTION ... WAIT for the duration to expire, since Dimension Shift is a click power.

As proposed here, you'd have (at least) THREE OPTIONS to choose from ... tell the Gravity Controller to detoggle (also known as "Ready!" emote) and they obligingly detoggle ... or /kick. Either way, the power effects are removed from the team in very short order and you can resume engaging Foes. Third option, of course, is to wait for the (griefer) Gravity Controller to drain themselves of END ... at which point they can't maintain the toggle anyway due to rapidly rising cost, the intangibility drops, and they get /kick from team for being "unhelpful" to the team effort.

The point being, that instead of having only ONE way to deal with the intangibility (wait it out), the ability to cancel the effect (at any time) is in the hands of the player(s) ... giving you multiple ways of leveraging the power to the team's advantage.

Such as being able to Dimension Shift the whole team, wade into the middle of a big pile, and let the mobs all waste their alpha strikes on things they can't hit (ie. The Team). THEN you (the Gravity Controller) drop the Dimension Shift once the alpha threat is "disposed of" and your team responds with a retaliatory alpha strike of its own.

And that's before even including such things as making the Dimension Shift effect suppress for 10 seconds when you attack out of it ... kind of like how Travel Powers suppress their effects on target (ie. yourself) when you attack.

Using Dimension Shift offensively to help your team "get the drop" on mobs in PvE, rather than (merely) defensively as an "OH [censored]!!" power?

Bet you didn't think of that one, now did you?

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I like the knockup idea. It's really creative.

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Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)

Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)

Actually, I sort of like the self-effecting intagibility toggle for Dimensional Shift. Only, it doesn't need to be a PBAoE... just a self intagnibility toggle. One with a quick cast time, large End cost, and no set durration.

This would allow the Grav controller to act as an Alpha Eater (As above,), or use the power for a superior panic button, without much issue of griefing.

It still leaves Gravity without reasonable AoE mitigation until 26, but that would give it a suprior self mitigation power that I could see all kinds of benifits of...

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-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-

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The point being, that instead of having only ONE way to deal with the intangibility

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Why doesn't the options you mentioned for your suggested idea not work here? You can wait for the NPCs to stop being intangible (just as you can wait for the person forcing us to wait to run out) or you can kick the offender (just as it works for your idea). Additionally, you have the other options of fighting other NPCs that are not currently Intangible, something your suggested idea doesn't help with.

I did think of offensive abilities for idea, but I don't think it's "unique" qualities out weigh the fact that someone else is controlling the tangibility of my characters in PvE.

I'll admit, I'm a bit of a hard sell for Intangibility powers, as I find the effect quite annoying in all forms, avoiding it when possible. I can promise you though, that if I see a use for it that goes above and beyond all current uses for it, I'll be the first one voicing desire for it.

Keep working on it though, your second idea is one I love, and I do like where you're thinking.

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You can wait for the NPCs to stop being intangible

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Obviously, you've not been on any of the PuGs I've been saddled with. You know it's bad when even the scrappers can't abide by the 6 second rule (known to all scrappers as, "if I haven't defeated something within the last 6 seconds, I'm clear to attack!").

And to be fair, I personally prefer the Reverse Gravity idea better myself anyway.

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Who wouldn't like the Reverse Gravity idea? It fits so well with Gravity's power set, it's like it BELONGS there. The Immobs don't affect Knockback / down / up, and the set is lacking soft control early on (it's soft control was replaced with an attack), AND it has a very nice positioning power to maintain maximum use through Wormhole (seriously, drop the Reverse Gravity Field, Wormhole the spawn into it, Immobilize them there, and ta da! Locked down, stunned, knocked on their backs with Containment).

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I think they should put lift's damage scale on par with levitate much like they did so with the dominator version of lift.

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I'd just be happy if they did something with dimension shift (either make it a toggle) or swap it out for something else (anything else). The latter would certainly move gravity up a long way.

GDF could recharge a bit quicker to make up for the lack of AOE control, but otherwise I think it's OK.

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Malakim

-Playing since COH beta and still love the game!

As I can't seem to edit the original post, here is an update:

[u]General[u]
i) Bring Wormhole to level 12, push Dimension Shift up to 26.
ii) Bring Wormhole to 18 and push Gravity Distortion Field to 26.

[u]Lift[u]
i) Turn lift into an AoE power.
ii) Turn lift into a cone power.
iii) Increase the damage to match levitate.

[u]Propel[u]
i) Make this power a cone power

[u]Dimension Shift[u]
i) Turn this power into a toggle.
ii) Make the power single target and give Gravity an alternative AoE control power.
iii) Turn this into a self toggle, so the player becomes intangible.

[u]Gravity Distortion Field[u]
i) Reduce recharge from 240 seconds to 120 seconds. (To compensate for lack of alternatives.)

[u]Wormhole[u]
i) Lower the activation time of Wormhole to something more reasonable.
ii) Increase the radius of wormhole to match other powers with similar effects.
iii) Consider turning the knockback to knockdown, atleast when unslotted.

[u]New power to replace Dimension Shift[u]
i) Location Targeted Knockup field. (Kind of the reverse of Ice Slick) Working title: "Reverse Gravity Field"
ii) Targeted AoE Knockup.

Lets keep this thread alive guys, as stated in the original post Gravity is a very cool and unique set to CoX, it would be lovely to make it effective and fun again like it was in the early days before anyone even thought about effectiveness. Also, please no suggestions for the return of "Fold Space"

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With the changes to /Energy for Doms I have been patiently waiting for some changes to Grav/ so I can get her past 39 after 4 years of poor gameplay options.

I would welcome changes to Grav distortion (lower rech), Wormhole (lower activation plus increased radius), and undoubtably dimension shift (remove/replace/completely revamp) as these are the most glaring problems of the set IMO, but tweaking lift/propel would also be more then welcome- especially propel for doms... without containment its not good.

so /signed. Grav is a cool powerset which really needs some love to get on track/on par with the other control sets (especially for Doms).

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[u]Propel[u]
i) Make this power a cone power

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You know what? I think I'd actually be happier with Propel as a Snipe attack. Something really long ranged, with an Interrupt. That, at the very least, would "excuse" its absurdly long animation time (and would let BaBs increase the projectile velocity to "Ludicrous Speed!"). As is, Propel is decidedly SHORT ranged compared to the rest of the set ... which is odd, since you'd think that thematically Gravity would prefer to function at longer ranges since that would allow more time/distance for more acceleration (ie. greater kinetic and momentum impacts).

Too bad the CoX game engine doesn't have any sort of damage enhance/decay with range mechanism built into it, where your attacks can become more/less effective depending on how far away the target is when the power is activated. I can think of all sorts of powers in different power sets where a range enhance/decay to damage would thematically be very appropriate. And you'd want to be able to write/program the mechanic to work "in both directions" so that damage can be reduced or increased as range to target increases.

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[u]Dimension Shift[u]
i) Turn this power into a toggle.
ii) Make the power single target and give Gravity an alternative AoE control power.
iii) Turn this into a self toggle, so the player becomes intangible.

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iv) Turn this into a PBAoE toggle that affects teammates, allowing the power to be used both proactively and reactively, with the timing for usage and dispelling of the effect directly under player control.

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I think Wormhole should be high knockup instead of high knockback. I think I used that trick a few times in Portal....

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