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Technically it would be constructive in informing the OP of a way to get information on this subject themselves instead of rehashing all the same old stuff. Sort of a 'I don't have the time/inclination/etc to hunt it down, but it's there and here are the tools to find it yourself' type deal. With the knowledge that there's already a large thread or 8, it should be easier to find.
With that being said... /unsigned.
I'm assuming the other threads have better points than I'm about to make, but for me personally... while it would make a lot of things easier for the players, I can also see how it would make things easier for the... you know, RMTers. I support restricting ingame e-mail more than it is now, not giving it more features.
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Why should actual players have to sacrifice user friendliness and convenience because of a small undesired population? And by the way, the RMTers can transfer their influence and what not just fine so far, all this reasoning does is let the small amount of RMTers ruin it for the rest of us...
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Because experience has shown us that most players are more than willing to put up with a minor inconvienence if it gets rid of a major inconvienence.
The Trial account restrictions are proof of that. Before we had them RMTer's were running amok abusing the system. The restrictions went into effect and overnight the chat channels fell silent, and the RMT sites could no longer use trial accounts to shuttle funds between accounts.
The doomcriers ranted and raved at the draconian measures. The game was going to die from this. The restrictions were going to let the RMTers ruin it for the rest of us.
Guess what. The games still here. Everyone is still enjoying it. No one wants to return to the bad days prior to the trial account restrictions. The inconvienent restrictions didn't ruin it for the rest of us.
Giving us the tools we need to restrict or block emails entirely will benefit the majority of the customers and only frustrate the RMT sites and the losers that use their services.
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First off, I remember back before the trial account restrictions, and the RMTers didn't bug me that much even then. Secondly, I would much prefer an e-mail transfer system over keeping those guys in check. The RMTers are going to be in the game no matter what we do, report them as spam when they email you and move on..
But the bigger point is, how many conveniences and luxaries are we going to sacrifice for the sake of making things harder on the RMTers? These guys aren't going away, we are kidding ourselves if we think they are. They are a part of this game and MMOs in general, I say make the game the players want and stop worrying about a small population of undesirables.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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Thats a 100% stupid idea.
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Under what logic??
[/ QUOTE ] Some people use the email system. Optional filters would be a much better way to handle the problem. People could choose who to receive emails from.
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To elaborate, our spam problems would be solved if email was changed to only allow messages from friends and SG/coalition members.
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I would rather see us get tools to block emails, than get rid of the system entirely. While I may never use emails, I know players that do.
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But the bigger point is, how many conveniences and luxaries are we going to sacrifice for the sake of making things harder on the RMTers? These guys aren't going away, we are kidding ourselves if we think they are. They are a part of this game and MMOs in general, I say make the game the players want and stop worrying about a small population of undesirables.
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1. Just like to point out that you can't sacrifice something if you don't already have it. We're not giving up an existing feature that the RMT sites are using.
2. I'm willing to give up as many convienences and luxuries as needed.
3. As EvilGeko has already said:
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You can already fairly easily trade resources.
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2. I'm willing to give up as many convienences and luxuries as needed.
[/ QUOTE ] Thats so thoughtful of you to be willing to give up other people's convienences and luxuries.
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2. I'm willing to give up as many convienences and luxuries as needed.
[/ QUOTE ] Thats so thoughtful of you to be willing to give up other people's convienences and luxuries.
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He asked. I answered. But it still doesn't change the fact that we aren't giving up anything at this point because the feature doesn't exist in the game.
We can't give up what we don't have.
I agree, we're not giving anything up by not putting it in. Like you said, we can't give up what we don't have.
But you said you were willing to give stuff up. And I feel that is a horrible idea. That would be a bad road to go down for any service that relies on subscriptions.
If we had that feature already, I'm looking at it from what happened with the trial account restrictions. We accepted a minor inconvience to be rid of a greater one.
If we already had a global mail system in place I'd have no problem giving it up because we have other methods in place for moving stuff between characters.
However we don't have that feature so what you or I are willing to give up doesn't even apply.
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Oh I agree. But I am only checking if ANY one does it. If anyone does it, then it is wrong to say that "it won't hurt the market" at all. The only question is will it hurt the market "enough" to be impactful, or not. That is why I mention the complaints about the BM already being slow, since that suggests any slow down would be problematic.
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Well, I think it's helpful to define an "impactful scenario" as one that is actually significant. If there's an impact that proves insignficant, then it's safe to round down to "no impact". An old teacher of mine used to call that "a distinction without a difference".
For example, if this change went live and it was found that 1% of the players started banking all or most of their goods with alts instead of putting them on the market, I'd say it was worth it and the 1% counts as insignificant impact. If that number was 25%, that'd be significant, and would have an obvious impact on the markets.
Maybe that's the problem with this debate. It really revolves around presumed future behavior. It's obvious to some folks that it'll have a negative impact on availability of goods at WWs, and just as obvious to other folks that it won't! 
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I fully agree. So what kind of number would be "too much"
As I mentioned above, we can probably get one of the Marketeer people to provide some decent data one item liquidity. Since recipes and crafted IOs are likely to eb the most impacted, and also lower volume as it is, I think it is fair to say that if recipe and enhancement item changes are impactful, then the market has been impacted. I do not believe salvage or inspos will be significantly impacted, nor that even if I am wrong that the market will break down with the loss of significiant salvage volume.
Further, I believe that it is the BM which we should analysis, because it is fair to say that WW is more active. Although an impact to the BM will also impact WW, it is entirely possible for WW to remain active enough, even if the BM was not.
So there are the perameters. Recipes and crafted Enhancements on the BM. If those are not significantly impacted, then this change does not significantly impact the market, fair enough?
So now, how do we judge market activity? If 10% of posters think the BM is presently not active enough, what would that mean? Is outstanding sale and buy bids what we should measure? Is last 5 sale times?
Lets see if we can't get some framework to judge existing activity, and from that, begining analysising the potential impact inheritance might have. We have to find the existing conditions first.
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Possible impact on the market is grossly exaggerated for the following reasons:
1) I can transfer stuff to alts it just takes time.
[/ QUOTE ] That you can do a thing does not mean that everyone does a thing.
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No. But it DOES prove that everyone CAN do it. Which was the point I was making.
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??? Huh? You were argueing that the impact on the market is being "grossly exaggerated" and your point was
"1) I can transfer stuff to alts it just takes time."
Since I believe that there are a significant portion of people who do NOT inherit BECAUSE it takes time, I disagree with your point.
So your reponse would not be relavent to my position.
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Further, WoW has substantially more players, yet the market is no more active then ours, which suggests that their market activity is lower than ours, and they make up for their lower activity per person by having more persons.
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Maybe you are drawing the wrong conclusions. The fact that markets in MMOs are exhibiting low activity per person might mean that people don't like markets in their MMOs (shock!).
The market has shown itself to be no more popular than the Arena in CoX. It can go play in it's corner and leave everyone that doesn't want to use it alone.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Actually, I'd say the market is more popular than the arena, but that's just from my general observations. We'd need a red name with the numbers to say for sure.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I think checking the arena for matches and checking the market for sales will answer that. Being cross server gives the market a huge advantage though.
If the Arena were cross-server from issue 9, it would be more popular today (and there likely be less people leaving pvp).
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
We could only hope.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Possible impact on the market is grossly exaggerated for the following reasons:
1) I can transfer stuff to alts it just takes time.
[/ QUOTE ] That you can do a thing does not mean that everyone does a thing.
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No. But it DOES prove that everyone CAN do it. Which was the point I was making.
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??? Huh? You were argueing that the impact on the market is being "grossly exaggerated" and your point was
"1) I can transfer stuff to alts it just takes time."
Since I believe that there are a significant portion of people who do NOT inherit BECAUSE it takes time, I disagree with your point.
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Since I also believe that there are a significant portion of people who do not transfer because it takes time, you will not be surprised to hear that I think that makes absolutely no difference to my point.
Making behaviour X annoying or hard so that people will refrain from behaviour X and start doing behaviour Y doesn't work. At least hasn't yet. Certainly won't encourage people to use the market.
What might encourage people to use the market is getting a special drop on one character transfering it to another and then needing to buy the rest of the set.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Possible impact on the market is grossly exaggerated for the following reasons:
1) I can transfer stuff to alts it just takes time.
[/ QUOTE ] That you can do a thing does not mean that everyone does a thing.
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No. But it DOES prove that everyone CAN do it. Which was the point I was making.
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??? Huh? You were argueing that the impact on the market is being "grossly exaggerated" and your point was
"1) I can transfer stuff to alts it just takes time."
Since I believe that there are a significant portion of people who do NOT inherit BECAUSE it takes time, I disagree with your point.
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Since I also believe that there are a significant portion of people who do not transfer because it takes time, you will not be surprised to hear that I think that makes absolutely no difference to my point.
Making behaviour X annoying or hard so that people will refrain from behaviour X and start doing behaviour Y doesn't work. At least hasn't yet. Certainly won't encourage people to use the market.
[/ QUOTE ] I disagree entirely. Any psychology major would be able to provide numerous examples of how people will modify their behavior in response to modified stimuli. A good example is that increasing taxes on cigarettes produced an almost immediate decrease in their use, whole differential from improved knowledge of the negative impacts, or added restricitions on use. I would expect that the recent huge increase in the cig tax will have similar effects, which is why I believe that Congress overestimates how much money will be drawn into SCHIP services due to the tax.[ QUOTE ]
What might encourage people to use the market is getting a special drop on one character transfering it to another and then needing to buy the rest of the set.
[/ QUOTE ] but you could do EXACTLY the same thing by selling that drop on the market and then buying a piece of a set you want.
In any case, I think the groundrules for an objective evaluation of the impacts of inheritance are not too hard to set, we just need help in collecting the data.
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I disagree entirely.
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Any psychology major would be able to provide numerous examples of how people will modify their behavior in response to modified stimuli.
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Not using this game as an example.
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What might encourage people to use the market is getting a special drop on one character transfering it to another and then needing to buy the rest of the set.
[/ QUOTE ]but you could do EXACTLY the same thing by selling that drop on the market and then buying a piece of a set you want.
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No. The point of the example was that people get some "goodie" and decide to use it. That spurs them into using the market to get the rest of the set. Without the initial good luck they wouldn't bother.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
I'd be more inclined to play the market game and use IOs if I had an easier way to transfer stuff between characters. But that's just me.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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Someone needs to make one of those cut-n-paste replies to this "mail items to myself" redundancy.
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Completely OT, but I saved this from like... ever ago. I cannot remember who came up with it after /JRanger was banned. 
AGREEMENT
I agree (check one):
[ ] wholeheartedly
[ ] in part
[ ] somewhat
[ ] slightly
with your assertions because (check all that apply):
[ ] your points are valid
[ ] I am in favor of the idea
[ ] a dev has responded in favor of the idea
[ ] the idea has merit and is feasible
Your ideas are (choose one):
[ ] not unique, but I support them nonetheless
[ ] new and fresh, and will hopefully be considered by the devs
[ ] going to be implemented by the devs, for which I am grateful
DISAGREEMENT
I disagree (choose one):
[ ] wholeheartedly
[ ] in part
[ ] somewhat
[ ] slightly
with your assertions because (choose all that apply):
[ ] your points are invalid
[ ] I am against the idea
[ ] a dev has responded against the idea
[ ] while the idea has merit, it is not feasible
Your ideas are (choose one):
[ ] not unique, and have been mentioned many times before
[ ] at least new and fresh, despite the fact that I don't agree with them
[ ] going to be implemented by the devs, despite my objections
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Someone needs to make one of those cut-n-paste replies to this "mail items to myself" redundancy.
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Completely OT, but I saved this from like... ever ago. I cannot remember who came up with it after /JRanger was banned.
AGREEMENT
I agree (check one):
[ ] wholeheartedly
[ ] in part
[ ] somewhat
[ ] slightly
with your assertions because (check all that apply):
[ ] your points are valid
[ ] I am in favor of the idea
[ ] a dev has responded in favor of the idea
[ ] the idea has merit and is feasible
Your ideas are (choose one):
[ ] not unique, but I support them nonetheless
[ ] new and fresh, and will hopefully be considered by the devs
[ ] going to be implemented by the devs, for which I am grateful
DISAGREEMENT
I disagree (choose one):
[ ] wholeheartedly
[ ] in part
[ ] somewhat
[ ] slightly
with your assertions because (choose all that apply):
[ ] your points are invalid
[ ] I am against the idea
[ ] a dev has responded against the idea
[ ] while the idea has merit, it is not feasible
Your ideas are (choose one):
[ ] not unique, and have been mentioned many times before
[ ] at least new and fresh, despite the fact that I don't agree with them
[ ] going to be implemented by the devs, despite my objections
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I use those two from time to time, tho i've slightly modified the disagreement one. Oh and here's one from Anti Product that can be modified for almost any topic.
Ok. For all of you who want to "mail emails to myself", I give you a challenge.
Come up with a VALID reason as to WHY you should be allowed to mail emails to yourself by following these rules:
(1) Refrain from using OTHER MMOs as a source of reference.
(2) The reason(s) MUST be in paragraph form. None of the following will be allowed:
(a) Because it would be cool.
(b) Because we need it.
(c) Because I'm bored.
(Invalid reasons)
(3)Spell check and sentence structure is important. (Remember you're trying to convince the majority of players WHY this feature is needed. Please, sound out the word(s) before you type them.)
(4) Your statements MUST be based on FACT and NOT the rantings of a 5 year old that just wants and wants and wants.
(5) Your reason(s) must FIX the issues rather than create new ones
So, there you have it. Lets see what you've got.
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Someone needs to make one of those cut-n-paste replies to this "mail items to myself" redundancy.
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Completely OT, but I saved this from like... ever ago. I cannot remember who came up with it after /JRanger was banned.
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These have all the downsides of /jranger and none of the brevity
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Someone needs to make one of those cut-n-paste replies to this "mail items to myself" redundancy.
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Completely OT, but I saved this from like... ever ago. I cannot remember who came up with it after /JRanger was banned.
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These have all the downsides of /jranger and none of the brevity
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The reason these lack brevity is because of this:
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Our moderation team has been placed on high alert for all forums above the "For Fun" and "Servers" sections. By high alert they are searching for specific violations.
Refrain from such posts as :
+1
/jranger
LOL
no
or other such fluff posts that do little to contribute to the discussion. Continued such posts will result in action on our part to curb the behavior.
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So if someone wants to say they simply like or dislike an idea they are supposed to be longwinded and verbose.
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(1) Refrain from using OTHER MMOs as a source of reference.
[/ QUOTE ] Actually using other successful MMOs as a source of reference is perfectly fine. I don't believe it should be somebody's core argument, because each game is different. But looking at the competition(especially the more successful ones) and what they do is a good idea.
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Come up with a VALID reason as to WHY you should be allowed to mail emails to yourself by following these rules:
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Stooping to stacking the deck? How droll.
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(1) Refrain from using OTHER MMOs as a source of reference.
(2) The reason(s) MUST be in paragraph form. None of the following will be allowed:
(a) Because it would be cool.
(b) Because we need it.
(c) Because I'm bored.
(Invalid reasons)
(3)Spell check and sentence structure is important. (Remember you're trying to convince the majority of players WHY this feature is needed. Please, sound out the word(s) before you type them.)
(4) Your statements MUST be based on FACT and NOT the rantings of a 5 year old that just wants and wants and wants.
(5) Your reason(s) must FIX the issues rather than create new ones
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There exists several ways to transfer inf and items without a mail system. However they come with added baggage. There is the extra account, but that costs $15 a month. This favors those with more real life money over those with a single account, creating a two-tier system. You could try to trade with a friend, but that comes with a time cost. There is a method with even greater risk by trying to use the market to transfer the item/inf. Finally, there is using group storage items to transfer, but comes with either the risk of theft from another person in the group or the diminished presence of larger groups as people leave to start solo groups.
Seeing that it already exists and is already happening, adding a mail transfer system should have minimal negative effect on the market. Items transferred wouldn't be heading to the market anyways, so there is nothing lost for them. In the case of groups there would likely be some small benefit as people wouldn't have to worry about making "personal storage groups" to facilitate transfer of items. At any rate it would eliminate the advantage of those who can afford to pay for two or more accounts.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I wonder what type of impact on server load this would cause. I suppose it could be done client side. But you run the risk of having the client delete older emails you wanted to save if someone has their character renamed.