Discussion: Issue 14: Mission Architect - FAQ
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2009-02-26 13:02 in Developers' Corner
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Here's my little beef about this system (from the Blue side perspective). I don't really care for the "entertainment" or Holo-deck explanation for this tool. If I'm role playing, would a hero actually go to a store and make a "simulated" game for other heroes to play? This doesn't seem to really fit into the general theme of the game-- fighting bad guys-- not simulated bad guys.
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When I'm roleplaying, everything I do is a "real" mission; the holodeck notion is the official in-game explanation, but I'll simply ignore that. Going down to the building to launch the mission won't ruin my immersion, because I won't let it. 
Basically, I chalk the AE entrance as a necessary game mechanic that gives me access to content I want to explore. Once I'm in the mission, the AE notion is out the window.
This is not a knock on the way the system is designed; I fully understand the reasoning behind it and support it. But it won't impact my ability to roleplay the missions in the least.
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[ QUOTE ][*] Players create content in game through a computer terminal within one of the Architect Entertainment buildings. Architect Entertainment is the name of an in-game company thats developed this type of simulated experience for heroes and villains of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. You can think of this like a holo-deck or a simulated mission tool. Players go to these facilities that are spread through out most of our zones and interact with a computer that walks through the creation process. Here is where they pick all of their options for a mission as well as write all the dialog and build their custom characters. Once theyve gotten their story together, they can test it out and see how it plays. Once theyve gotten it perfect, they can publish the story up to our Arc Server. This server is cross shard and cross game. So, any content published will be seen by everyone on every server, regardless of where they play.
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Here's my little beef about this system (from the Blue side perspective). I don't really care for the "entertainment" or Holo-deck explanation for this tool. If I'm role playing, would a hero actually go to a store and make a "simulated" game for other heroes to play? This doesn't seem to really fit into the general theme of the game-- fighting bad guys-- not simulated bad guys.
Basically, I'm playing a game (COH), where my character makes a game (Simulator) for another gamer to play? I don't get it.
My suggestion for the back story for the mission architect would be the following:
Evil is spreading faster than our contacts can deal with the problems. Hero Corps requests all heroes of Paragon to identify and defeat all signs of evil, even the new threats that our present contacts do not know about. If you come across a new threat (IE the one you build in the mission architect creator) enter it into the "mission Architect" computer and hopefully other heroes can help in defeating these ever-growing threats.
Even if you don't know of new evil threats, check the "mission Architect" computer for wrongdoing to stop. (e.g. playing other players' missions)
I just don't think we need to build into the lore of COH that players build simulated missions. For example, if the missions are "simulated" why would you receive merits and/or salvage?
Does anyone else think like this?
PS: I love the idea; I'm just not fond of the backstory justifying the mission architect.
[/ QUOTE ]Even though we'll have to use a character to get to the editor, arcs will be attributed to our Global Name, not to that specific character. So it's not really your specific character that's creating the story. (Yes, the fourth wall is getting a little thin here.)
And while the current story is that these are completely fictional, virtual realities, you don't have to accept that. If you want to rationalize it as they are actually accessing alternate realities, no one's stopping you. That's a better explanation for the stories that eventually become a part of the game canon than "that story just happens to match previously unrevealed actual events."
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What if the rating system rated by mission, with the combined mission total constituting the arc rating?
Or perhaps the arc rating would only be available to those who finished the arc; if players didn't finish the arc, they could only leave ratings for the mission they started/played?
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I was going to suggest this myself, or something like it:
Every player can give a mission a score, and they would all be displayed with their comments. The total Mission Score displayed on the board would be the average of all the scores given, with each score weighted by how far the player got in the mission. Unplayed missions would be weighted down to nothing.
There would also be an Arc Score, which would be the average of the Mission Scores. I think this means that the score for any unplayed missions would not affect the Arc score.
This is just off the top of my head. Something like this may already be in discussion, but I haven't had time to read the last few dozen pages of posts.
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As a point on the "the author has to grab the reader by the throat" school of reviewing, there are a couple of factors at play here.
1) Reading books / watching movies don't drop rewards outside of the overall experience. MMO players often play through something for the experiential element AND the rewards they can receive. When playing through MA arcs, players are likely to take both into account, which means that good narratives might be undermined if they are seen to not be providing the rewards. Conversely, missions that have weak narratives but have good reward rates might be highly rated. The mission rating might actually be a weak judge of story.
2) It's a matter of trust between the creator and the audience about the journey they are going to take, but it isn't cut and dried. For instance: "Apocalypse Now" is an awful war movie because the first 15 minutes has no M60 machine gun fights. "Memento" is an awful film because it runs backwards. Now, both are potential reasons to turn these movies off after 15 minutes, but you shouldn't be able to rate them because you only watched 15 minutes of them.
More applicably to CoH/V: perhaps I create a story arc that relies on twisting a cliche. However, players who don't get past the first mission never see how the cliche was changed. They play the first mission, rate it 2 star for being a cliche, then move on to the AV Farm. As an author, should I have to tip my hand up front just to cater to the ADHD instant gratification reward-monkeys who might have to wait two missions for a narrative payoff? Yes, awful material will get into the MA - I might actually create some of it :-) - but invalidating someone's work without experiencing all of it is a weak form of criticism. It is why I suggested a drop-out rate (or completion rate) statistic.
I expect the mission rating system to be manipulated to hell and back because ultimately 1) all arbitrary rating systems can be (see IMDb whenever especially popular / unpopular movies come out), 2) it's only using a 5-point scale which doesn't allow a lot of variability in ratings (a 0-to-10 point scale would be a lot better) and 3) early on there will be a lot of mission creating so players will be doing whatever they can to get their missions noticed. Until large numbers of players hit the rating system, exactly how it is flawed won't be readily evident.
Hopefully we'll be able to sort MA stories by creator, because then I'll have a better idea of who is producing quality work.
Another question - if I want to run a character from 1 to 50 completely in the MA will there be any way for me to earn capes, auras and extra costume slots?
I'm thinking I'd like to make a "Virtual Hero" who can only appear in the MA "world," but that would mean he couldn't run missions for Serge or anyone to get those rewards.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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Here's my little beef about this system (from the Blue side perspective). I don't really care for the "entertainment" or Holo-deck explanation for this tool. If I'm role playing, would a hero actually go to a store and make a "simulated" game for other heroes to play? This doesn't seem to really fit into the general theme of the game-- fighting bad guys-- not simulated bad guys.
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Okay, don't call it a Holodeck. Call it a Danger Room. A training simulator, not an entertainment venue.
(I know, the Trek holodecks served both purposes, but we tend to remember Dixon Hill and Captain Proton better than the exercises.)
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Were granting full experience (XP) and influence rewards for defeating enemies in player made content. Were also giving players tickets in place of random drops. They can take these tickets to an Architect ticket vendor and redeem them for various in game rewards, such as enhancements, recipes and salvage.
[/ QUOTE ] This just seems like an easier way to PL/Farm influence...Making a map how ever big they want. Making certain foes being as easy as they want. Can anyone say new Family Farm? This way someone does not have to do those annoying arcs too, could just start off with a farm, or if someone needs a badge they could simpley just put that foe in their and just farm it over and over again.
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Positron:
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Badges, and why they don't count
This Mission Architect primary purpose is for telling stories. We do not want people to spend days making a great story only to find it shuffled into a list of missions with titles like "Get your Rikti Monkey badge here", "10 badges in 5 minutes", "Down on the AV Farm", etc. etc.
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And that, I realize, is one area where the MA will NOT be the same as leveling the "normal" way.
As far as farming goes, well, in a way, the entire MA system is all one big Inf./XP/Drops farm. That you can customize.
There are limits on map sizes and choices. There are limits on levels of the enemies (their normal level ranges, apparently). There is a limit to how many enemies total you can put in a mission. While none of these prevent you from still building a pretty "farmish" mission, you cannot build an unlimited one. So you'll have to run your own farms over and over, too. At least you won't have to worry about "farm smashers".
My impression, from many different posts and comments, is that the devs' biggest objection to farming is that it can contribute to a distorted view of the game, and accelerate burnout. They've "added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior", so I guess we'll see whether they consider farming "aberrant" or not.
I personally don't have any strong feelings about farms and farmers themselves either way, but if it reduces the noise level in PI, a lot of people are going to consider that A Good Thing.
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Will running MA missions grant prestige? If so, will it be just for defeating enemies, or will there also be the prestige grant at mission completion?
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Pohsyb just confirmed for me that yes, we will earn prestige in MA missions. (Assuming we're in SG mode, of course.)
I forgot to ask about an end-of-mission drop, but Pohsyb also said early in the thread:
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Do you earn an end of mission and end of story arc bonus (exp and inf) like you do with normal story arc? Or do you only earn tickets?
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Using the mission architect its possible to make missions that complete or can be completed almost instantly so having rewards for mission complete becomes an automatic exploit. However, there is a ticket-only bonus at the end of mission which is proportional to the amount of tickets earned during the mission. If you don't earn any tickets, you don't get a bonus.
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So there won't be any XP or Inf. end-of-mission bonuses, thus no end-of-mission prestige bonuses, either.
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Pohsyb just confirmed for me that yes, we will earn prestige in MA missions. (Assuming we're in SG mode, of course.)
[/ QUOTE ]Did you visit him in his box, or was he able to smuggle a note out to you? 
Just a note: Does this prevent viable exp farming, or have you reduced spawn points by uping the exp/influence rewards to normal rates instead of the halved rates?
1) Can you set the mission level when you create it, or is it chosen automatically based on what you put in?
2) If I want to make a mission geared towards Level 15, is there a maximum level of enemy that I can include? Or will the inclusion of a 30th level boss automatically raise the mission level? Or the experience given?
3) What about NPC allies like Fusionette? How high a level can an ally be? Or will freeing a 30th level NPC automatically lower the rewards for the 15th-level players?
Okay, while I've gone through all the pages so far, I might've missed a few things, so forgive me if it's all been covered before... I remember it being asked, but I don't see an answer for it: will Giant Monsters be available?
Also, regarding the whole "rating weighting" thing, what if we combine the concepts of weighing the votes with letting all votes be equal?
Like, what if each vote could have a weight of anywhere between 1 and 2. A person who goes into a mission but doesn't do anything might get a weight of 1 for their vote. Then a person who does half of the mission could get a 1.5 weight for their rating. And a person who completes it all could get the full weight of 2.
It's admittedly got some flaws, but it might help to alleviate some of the strains.
Can we have a "Creators Comments" field.
Example: This is where we can put notes to the players before they play. ie not recommended for solo play, written as a co-op mission.
I still haven't seen if we can add pool powers to the NPC, allies and enemies we create. One of my ideas invovles the Whirlwind from Super Speed.
@Blood Beret(2)Twitter
I am a bad speeler, use poorer grammar, and am a frequent typoist.
MA ArcID: 1197
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill
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Pohsyb just confirmed for me that yes, we will earn prestige in MA missions. (Assuming we're in SG mode, of course.)
[/ QUOTE ]Did you visit him in his box, or was he able to smuggle a note out to you?
[/ QUOTE ]Called him up on the Hazzard-Phone, of course!
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1) Can you set the mission level when you create it, or is it chosen automatically based on what you put in?
2) If I want to make a mission geared towards Level 15, is there a maximum level of enemy that I can include? Or will the inclusion of a 30th level boss automatically raise the mission level? Or the experience given?
3) What about NPC allies like Fusionette? How high a level can an ally be? Or will freeing a 30th level NPC automatically lower the rewards for the 15th-level players?
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Pohsyb:
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How will level scaling work? Will every mission automatically scale to your current level (+ difficulty, team size, etc.) or will it be predetermined by the "architect"?
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This is complicated. Every critter has a level range where they are valid. When you make a mission, all of the level ranges must overlap at some point. If you are outside this level range when you go to play the mission you will be brought up or down to the level range of the mission.
Example, I use critters A (1-54), B (34-45) and C (40-48). The level range of the mission is (40-45).
If I am level 5, I will play mission at level 40.
If I am level 50, I will play mission at level 45.
If I am level 42 I will play at level 42.
If I am level 5, but have set my difficulty to max, I will play at level 38.
Note: I said mission here, not arc, each mission has an independent level range.
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I got nothing about ally levels, though.
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I got nothing about ally levels, though.
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In normal missions, aren't ally characters basically just your level? So I don't think you can put in a level inappropriate ally in a mission; they'd be scaled to the combat level of the player doing the mission, adjusted for difficulty.
Putting in a level 50 ally in a level meh mission seems such an obvious flaw I can't imagine they'd let it work.
@Mindshadow
(QR)
Will missions be marked for specific factions? Hero, Villain or Either?
For example, I write a bank heist, I'm designing for villains, I'd like to tell heroes to simply not bother rather than fend off complaints from people not feeling heroic when doing my arc. Yet a Rikti/Vanguard arc should be appropriate to either faction. (or, even better, runnable in co-op mode!)
appologies if that got answered somewhere, and advance thanks if you can point me to it.
I know the details are not in place yet for exactly what can be bought with tickets. However, I think it would help a lot if you could just name one recipe that will be purchasable/attainable with tickets.
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Okay, while I've gone through all the pages so far, I might've missed a few things, so forgive me if it's all been covered before... I remember it being asked, but I don't see an answer for it: will Giant Monsters be available?
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We may get some monsters (maybe downgraded GMs like Adamastor), but there is no way we will get access to anything that can be farmed for merits.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Positron, I am a little concerned about the possible rate griefing involved with being able to rate an arc that hasn't been played. Especially when there are badges involved in rating unrated arcs or ones that don't have many ratings. A lot of people will probably get their badges simply by going down the line of unrated arcs, slapping a 1 star rating on them, and getting their badge in the process. I've seen rating systems on web-published content experience things like that, and that's WITHOUT the enticing badge. Please reconsider allowing someone to rate an unfinished arc.
*EDIT* Been here since CoH beta, and this is the first time I've posted after a redname.
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I'm willing to listen to ideas on how truly horrible content can get rated without having to endure all of it.
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How about listing either the abandon rate or completion rate associated with the mission/arc?
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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?
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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.
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Hmm...Interesting response as I never had a moral compass waiver after doing a KHTF and waiting 3 hours to do another or popping on another toon doing them back to back etc...Yet this was called exploitation... Hmm.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Okay, while I've gone through all the pages so far, I might've missed a few things, so forgive me if it's all been covered before... I remember it being asked, but I don't see an answer for it: will Giant Monsters be available?
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We may get some monsters (maybe downgraded GMs like Adamastor), but there is no way we will get access to anything that can be farmed for merits.
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Farmed for merits no way farmed for tickets, well....
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Hmm...Interesting response as I never had a moral compass waiver after doing a KHTF and waiting 3 hours to do another or popping on another toon doing them back to back etc...Yet this was called exploitation... Hmm.
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Your continued unwillingness to comprehend the difference between an Exploit (using the system to gain rewards in a way that was never intended) and exploiting the system (utilizing the system in the manner it was generally intended, but isolating the single most efficient manner of doing so and utilizing that to the exclusion of most or all other behaviors) is remarkable. There's nothing morally wrong with using the system as intended in what some would argue is the most efficient manner. It's exploiting the system, but it's not like the devs didn't know Katie could and would be exploited when they introduced Pool C drops. If you ran it as often as you could to get as many rewards as you could, you were by definition exploiting the system - using it to get the best possible rewards, but working within its established parameters. There's no judgment involved in that statement, either. Nobody's saying, "If you ran lots of Katies, you were a bad person, Darth!"
A better metric than an internal "moral compass" to identify whether something is a true Exploit would be, "Is this the kind of thing that I'd tell my SG not to spread around?" For example, the team-dropping trick to get merit awards repeatedly for a single task that was present when the system went live, or whatever trick existed to let people get 20 LotGs for the price of one. Clearly, those reflected the system not working as intended, so using them was an Exploit with a capitol-E.
As to your next comment, it plays directly into this one. Using the MA to get tickets = intended. We don't know how quickly tickets can be earned, what the exchange rate will be, or anything else, so talking about "farming for tickets" is nonsensical. We know next to nothing about the system.
On the other hand, using the architect to repeatedly earn 2 merits per kill for a GM that can be spawned in a predictable way and killed rapidly with an optimized team = an idea to make the system give rewards faster than it should. We know how merits work, after all.
Note that I'm not saying this is what people who are asking for GMs want to do. Many of them would be great from a storytelling perspective to be able to include. I'm just pointing it out as emblematic of a difference that you keep pretending doesn't exist, between true Exploits, and ways to exploit the system as designed to get the best reward over time.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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We've added a TON more datamining hooks exclusively for Mission Architect as well, so we can easily see spikes in aberrant behavior. Spikes point us to exploits, which points us to log files, which reveal the identities of exploiters. So if you find a really big exploit in the system, I'd encourage you to PM me or another Dev and try to get your Bug Hunter badge, as the alternative is not pretty.
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I really realy really don't like the wording here. I wonder just what is considered an expliot. You called running KHTF once every three hours an expliot so I wondering what "exactly" is meant here by expliot?
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If your personal moral compass flip flops or even wavers a little while doing something in the game that is obvious to you is not intended behavior, it's probably an exploit.
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Hmm...Interesting response as I never had a moral compass waiver after doing a KHTF and waiting 3 hours to do another or popping on another toon doing them back to back etc...Yet this was called exploitation... Hmm.
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If this affects your moral compass in any way, you probably need therapy. My moral compass is reserved for things like murder,theft, [censored],assault...you know things that are morally unacceptable. Not getting merits in an online game.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Are ambushes possible? Can our heroes leave a door mission and get attacked by our custom villains in an ambush?
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We have been led to believe that it all happens in the Architect Entertainment building, rather than out in the world. Someone may make an arc with Vic Johannson as the Contact, but an image of Vic will appear and grant the missions, which will lead you to doors within the building. You won't be going to King's Row to Vic, so you will never be outisde to receive an ambush.
In mission ambushes? Yes. In between mission ambushes? No.
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Ok then so far that is the only thing I don't like. I think the missions should start at the Architect building but carry on in the rest of the game zones.
See what happens when they don't ask me
Suriel- Scrapper MA/SR
Star Centurion- Peacebringer
War Forger- Blaster EB/Devices
Dedjinn- Stalker CL/DA
Cycnus- Mastermind Mercs/Traps