Boomtown Interviews Positron About Issue 13!
By
Alvdraken,
Posted on: 2008-11-12 17:50 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
I'd like to see Positron interviewed about I15 instead pls.
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Thats assuming all PvP players lvl up and earn the inf to purchace thes IOs themselves rather than PLing to 50 and recieving the IOs from SG mates or alt toons. Even if thats true, it doesn't change the fact that after the changes in i13, people will still have to lvl up and get the IOS. i13 doesn't hand out sets or lvl bumps. How does this reward players for no effort?
I can put all the time and effort into my Emp/Psi (and I have) and I still can't compete with and Brute or Scrap and its not based on Skill. This is a "Set" flaw. Obviously as it is, Emp/Psi is a team based set that has no chanse in a solo PvP environment. I'd love to be proven wrong but I haven't been yet.
I'm not saying these classes don't PvP, I'm just saying they have a distinct disadvantage.
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Actually, your Emp/Psi would have an advantage over a brute and most Scrappers, provided both players were of equal skill level.
Nearly Anything/Psi defenders made for some great dueling characters in PvP.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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I'd like to respond to the following comments from Positron about the PvP segment of I13:
"Matt Miller: Issue 13 started off having all sorts of new features tied around PvP, simply because it was a system that we had not put as much attention towards in the past. When we began to play these new systems, the feedback we got was that none of them were any fun. This was really disappointing, since they looked good in design. When we drilled down to exactly why they were not fun, we came to the sobering realization that the lack of fun wasnt the new systems fault, it was PvP as a whole that was limiting. Certain powersets dominated. Certain ATs were impossible to beat. Certain tactics were fun, but only for the person employing them. For everyone else these tactics bordered on frustrating, annoying, and a plethora of other words that are antonyms for fun.
PvP as a whole needed to be fixed. Wed let the current system get into a state where only a small handful of our players actually used it. If we were really going to invest in these new PvP systems, we needed to get the current PvP game to be accepted and used by more than just that handful of players. Floyd Castle Grubb and his team poured over datamines, made a whole slew of changes to the way powers behaved, and even went so far as to pre-tackle sticky issues like many-on-one ganking.
As a player of CoH I am excited to see what my Dominator will bring to the table in PvP after Issue 13 goes live. The playtests have been nothing but fun here in the office, and I hope that the efforts of Castle and his crew can be tried out by people who have been turned off by PvP in the past. I urge everyone who found PvP in CoH to be frustrating and un-fun to come back and check it out in Issue 13. "
First off, unpopular game revamps tend to go wrong mainly with the data-mining that leads to important decisions. This is what I'd like to focus on.
One comment talks about certain builds currently dominating pvp. One of these happens to be the "dominator." How do they dominate? They set their build up to have "perma-dom," in other words other players are put into a never-ending hold state.
Here's where things begin to disconnect in my view. In I13, Positron is looking forward to see how his dominator can compete. Doesn't he realize that this is already one of the most powerful builds?
And what does I13 do with perma-hold? Removes mez protection. One of the reasons that I've always been able to compete with dominators is my mez protection, and that has been removed. I used to try to get in close to a dominator before the holds stacked enough to overwhelm my mez protection. This was fun for BOTH of us. The move in I13 seems badly disconnected from what really needs to be done. In fact it seems to be going in the opposite direction.
Why not give other builds a measure of mez protection to try to allow them to get hits in before the holds take effect? The slower your build, or the more limited your range, the longer your mez protection should last. Highly agile, ranged builds should get some mez protection, so they don't get insta-mezzed and killed, but it should be a small amount because of their high powered ranged attacks.
This modification to the current game would make a huge difference for builds (squishies) that are currently no fun to play in pvp. One of the reasons they aren't fun is that they usually get instantly mezzed and killed.
In the I13 changes, now MORE builds are getting instantly mezzed and killed. Thus it seems that more people are frustrated, including scrappers, who currently don't have this problem because of their mez protection.
Another hard to beat build includes defensive powers like intangible and hide. Simply put, a villain (usually stalker) will attack. If he/she doesn't kill you out right, they will then hit the intangible button, and go to hide, rendering counter-attack impossible.
This has not been addressed in any way in I13. It continues to be a guaranteed hit-and run tactic which some people find frustrating.
Now, let's look at what makes some builds competitive. Tanks are great in pvp because they can take a ton of damage. Their big problem though is that they can't move (builds like stone tanks I mean). What makes them competitive on the mobility aspect of things? TP self. This is the only way they can have any mobility (again thinking stone tanks). I13 is removing this from the game. Certain tank builds will therefore be much less competitive.
Let's talk about some other builds that do well in current pvp. How about the ice/cold corruptor. Very, very good for ranged damage, slows, holds etc. A nice build. In fact this is the most challenging build for me to fight as a regen scrapper. It's the slows and high ranged damage that get me. Is this frustrating though? No. It's very enjoyable. What makes it this way is my ability to teleport myself out of a slow attack TO my attacker and hit him with my Katana. Slow vs. tp self is balanced. I have a good chance to win, but if the corruptor is alert and mobile, my tp self/melee attack will miss him.
Also, web grenades as a melee toon give me a chance to bring down fliers, so thank goodness they have decided to give those back.
I'm very much hoping that the development team will read what I've written above about mez protection, and how to improve instead of removing it. I hope they'll see why their current approach to mez will actually spread frustration around more widely. I'm also hoping they'll take a look at limiting the range of tp self, so it can still be used by stone tanks, and for counter attacks against ranged builds with slow powers, instead of removing tp self altogether. I think limiting the range of tp self, eliminates it as a guaranteed escape strategy, but still allows stone tanks to move, and scrappers to tp themselves TO ranged attackers.
Also, to the development team and decision makers. I apologize for the way I've expressed my frustration at times. I felt that I was losing a lot of invested time and energy, and that my voice was not being heard. I think the frustration is understandable, but I'm not happy with the way it was expressed.
Also, please recognize that current pvpers DO recognize a need for change. We also feel that we know the pvp system extremely well, strengths AND weaknesses. We feel that we have important input. Please don't dismiss this just because we found ways to enjoy the current system. Yes we like it AND we see room for improvement. Please do not see these two things from an either/or perspective.
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VERY nicely put. Better then my anger based Rant....Be nice if the Devs actually consider your opinion.....I'd be absolutely amazed....but It would be nice. Might wanna add in a solution to gankin the Ios bein useless an the Buffs bein Ganked....I used ta enjoy Team PvPin.....(Including bein the Solo VS a group of Villians) Not even worth doin now. Still....Nice ta hear The PvPers opinions so elequently put. Good Job Jaaax
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Well thanks, I'm sort of past my initial reaction, which was one of hurt and frustration. I'm trying to communicate my point of view clearly and respectfully.
I'll also add to earlier thoughts a bit. I don't pvp in Warburg. A lot of people don't pvp in Warburg. There may be many reasons for this, but I'll give you mine. I don't want to steal people's launch codes.
Make it hard for them to get launch codes? O.k. sure, make them run the gauntlet. That's not so bad. But, after they've rescued 2 or 3 scientists and they're finally about to complete the launch sequence, I really don't want to kill someone and take their codes. I don't want to do this because it really pisses people off.
Don't get me wrong though, I think people in pvp zones are "fair game" so to speak. I'm just saying that I'd pvp in that zone more often, and others might as well, if we weren't forced to steal someone else's codes, that we probably don't want in the first place.
This is personal preference, I realize, but it is relevant to why some of the zones might be less populated. I prefer RV, partly because of this launch code issue, and simply because I enjoy the use of my full range of level 50 powers there.
Again, this brings up Issue 13. I have a level 50 character with a full range of powers, that are fun and well slotted...and now being removed or suppressed. That doesn't add fun for me; it takes it away.
If I was going to see things slowed down at all, I'd sooner see it done in degrees. Here's what I mean. In the lowest level pvp zone travel powers would be somewhat slowed. Jump would be less high, and tp self very limited in range.
In the next level pvp zone, the speeds, height of jump and tp self range would be somewhat increased. As you get to RV, the speed keeps increasing.
This would address one of the developers objectives that I think I understand: Lessen the learning curve for new pvpers.
At the same time, however, it would allow experienced pvpers the option of fast-paced 3D combat, with their full range of powers.
The zones would have differing degrees of speed, allowing for many pvp options that people could choose from. I'd much sooner see this than severe suppression implemented in all zones.
I also have a thought regarding the intangible/hide escape that doesn't involve a nerf. This would also work to counter the tp self escape, once again without a nerf. Why not make a disrupt opponent's tp proc and a disrupt opponent's intangible proc to the game. Allow me to slot an attack with something that give me a 20% chance to disrupt an opponent's escape. That would be great fun for me. If I get to keep my tp self, but an enemy has a chance to disrupt it, it would be fun to see who won the contest. Sometimes I would get away--fun for me. Sometimes I would get disrupted--fun for my opponent. Procs could work the same way for intangible. Again, no nerf, but an addition of something that puts an end to guaranteed escapes.
Well this is fascinating. I've played CoH/CoV for going on around 3 years now and I've never felt compelled to actually participate on this forum. I've read through it numerous times but for me to actually bother to post? You know somethings wrong. Now generally I wait until after an issue releases before I really look into what's been changed but looking and hearing all the dramatic changes has me very concerned to say the least.
Now my background is a multigame clan leader and I run an online gaming/otaku community which means I specialize in a lot more than just MMOs, but also means most people here probably pay more attention to them than I do including the CoX series. So forgive me if some examples I use will concern other non MMO games or companies.
From what I'm understanding a lot of powers are either being removed, changed, or horribly nerfed. This sounds a lot like how EA has been running their games in the past few years. The recent variations of the C&C series is a good example. EA constructs a game and a system, gives everyone just enough time to figure everything out and formulate strategies, then goes in and nerfs everything to the point of sucking the entire fun out of the game. C&C3 was a game I loved when it released but by the 12th or so patch the game was so nerfed my favorite race was no longer worth playing anymore because someone cried and someone whined because they couldnt figure out how to bypass a certain tactic or a certain unit. This is what I cannot understand. Someone complains about something being too strong or too powerful and its nerfed. The better idea would to be to judge just how difficult it is (or if its even possible) to counter it and if it can, then leave it be and let the person whining figure it out. If it is in fact too powerful to be countered by any reasonable means, by all means nerf it.
Another example although this is going way back and again out of genre but the principles still apply, is StarCraft. StarCraft was one of the first games (at least in the RTS genre) so give all factions/sides completely different units depending on what race you chose. Back then generally no matter what race or side you had picked it was just a mirror version of the enemy with a different look and that was their way of balancing things. But StarCraft chose to be dangerous and bold and try to make all three factions have COMPELTELY different units, powers, abilities and STILL make the game balanced. I dont know how many people have played or still play that game but that game if I remember correctly had only 1 balance patch in its entirety of existence and its still being played today competitively (I witnessed a match at Blizzcon). People whined, complained, and fought just as much as they do with any game out there today CoX included but Blizzard turned a deaf ear because nothing that was being complained or whined about was game breaking, only poor tactics on the players end.
I know MMOs and RTS genres are extremely different from one another but the topic Im discussing here is balance and balance means the same thing in all competitive multiplayer games. CoX is like StarCraft in a way, you have Villians and Heros, and each AT in each category has completely different abilities and powers than other ATs. And keyword STRATEGY plays a big role in PVP in CoX just like it does in StarCraft (deny it and I know you have never PVPed seriously). Things do not need to be removed or nerfed in order to create balance. If the game was that broken it wouldve been fixed in issues far earlier than 13. As it stands currently everyone who hasnt already found counters to certain powers or builds are at least formulating new ones and all that work the people took to learn and develop will be completely undone with a total nerf. The way I see it the game should be played in a Rock Paper Scissors fashion where clearly certain ATs will fare better with some than others and itll be up to the player if they want to spend all that extra time and effort to go against that system to make their character good enough to handle ATs it wouldnt normally be able to handle. Personally thats what I enjoy about CoX, making characters that one wouldnt think would be able to handle most others. Im that crazy [censored] that will make that one build everyone thinks sucks and turn it into something dangerous because I take the time to actually formulate strategies instead of just picking what looks cool and crying later because its too weak.
Ill agree with the rest of the community when it comes to CoX PVP system being broken. Yeah it is broken, when I can stand in RV under the statesman statue looking right at a blaster with a brute, full shields and all and be 1 shotted when I have over 2000 hp I say somethings broken. And to this day I cant explain how I was killed but removing tp self, or mez resist isnt going to fix that. It seems all the things expressed that will be changed, are things people have likely whined about not because its a legitimate break in the game but because theyre too ignorant and/or lazy to formulate a counter. If a stalker wants to hit intangible after every unsuccessful AS so what? Yeah its annoying but what are you going to do? Remove phase shift or phase temp powers? You have any idea how useful that is outside of PVP for other situations? You may as well remove travel powers while youre at it after all its annoying fighting a flyer when you have only super speed right? It boils down to tactics. If a power is never being used, replace it, because no one obviously is going to post 30 paragraphs complaining that you removed that 1 power. Bring in a power that counters or balances with a power you instead are considering removing that way no ones pissed off and no ones considering changing games like a few posts prior that I read.
Personally and I think I speak for a lot of people when I say this, Im used to how the game is now and the one thing that makes this MMO to me so much cooler than other ones is how you guys keep adding content. And Im very used to how everything works and formulates as it is and Im willing to learn new strategies with new powers or sets, NOT relearn old powers or ATs because theyve been mauled by nerfs or changed around. Theres rarely ever damage done in addition but almost always damage done by subtraction I just hope you dont fall down the path of EA games and think that if you just nerf the most commonly used powers/abilities/ATs/builds that youll fix the game. Because you might fix the game, but lost a lot of customers in the process.
And finally, all I said above was opinion, Im not here to argue or debate with anyone else so dont waste a post flaming me or anything I just felt compelled to voice my opinion as a fellow player, Thanks!
I think we should keep in mind that PvP was an added component to the game and was far from complete when launched. A few sets had clear advantages in PvP. Those sets are obvious when you enter any PvP zone. There have been changes in a few minor ways in past issues to make PvP more apealing to the less popular classes but not with PvP in mind.
These new changes are focused on PvP directly making it so that, hopefuly, "all" AT types will have a fair shake in a good PvP situation. Thats the challenge and where skill comes in. Anyone at this point can easily go to the forum Guide and grab the cookie cutter Brute, slot the IO's and accolades and a PvP champion is born. It sucks that some power may be shifted but thats the progress of improving the system to bring other play styles to the competition.
I like the system and love playing my Brute and troller but I can see where it can improve and welcome the changes. If anything it may encourage me to try the new flavor.
But what do I know, I'm an Emp/Psi 
You should read my post again. I agree that Tanks and scrappers "aren't" broken. I never said Tanks and Scrappers were. If anything they are the Uber class for PvP. My point is that the other classes "ARE" broken. If the tanks and scrapps were broken, no one would use them. As it stands, the majority of PvP players are the Tank/Brute or Scrap/Stalk class.
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You should read my post again. I agree that Tanks and scrappers "aren't" broken. I never said Tanks and Scrappers were. If anything they are the Uber class for PvP. My point is that the other classes "ARE" broken. If the tanks and scrapps were broken, no one would use them. As it stands, the majority of PvP players are the Tank/Brute or Scrap/Stalk class.
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This is wrong. Stalkers, maybe, but the rest is very wrong.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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You should read my post again. I agree that Tanks and scrappers "aren't" broken. I never said Tanks and Scrappers were. If anything they are the Uber class for PvP. My point is that the other classes "ARE" broken. If the tanks and scrapps were broken, no one would use them. As it stands, the majority of PvP players are the Tank/Brute or Scrap/Stalk class.
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Are you being sarcastic or are you smoking somethin funny? Brutes and tankers " uber pvp class"?
you fail.....
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Yea, I'm not too eager on the reduced rewards thing. To me, that gives me no real reason to play player created missions at all if I can just run dev created missions for full rewards. What's the point?
I'm not looking to see if theres any 'zomg he's totally creative in this mission!' as, for the most part I'm sure, we'll be restricted to creating the same basic missions we've been running for how long now? Kill 'em all, kill the BOSS, find the SHINEY, lead the retard OUT, and so on. As such, theres nothing really NEW about it, other than it slowing down my leveling process.
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Wow and you figured all that out even before MA has been released! How are you are predicting stock prices?
Is there somewhere I can see a list of all the features in issue 13?
Shields
Pain Domination
Day Jobs
PVP Changes
New IO Sets
Dual Builds
Level pacts
What more?
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Is there somewhere I can see a list of all the features in issue 13?
Shields
Pain Domination
Day Jobs
PVP Changes
New IO Sets
Dual Builds
Level pacts
What more?
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new mishes in Cim.
new civilian costume pieces (officer belt is awesome)
and changes/additions to the PPP and Mastery Power Pools
Villains can now change their PPP
Base prices reduced
thats all i can think of right now
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
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I'll stay here while Posi fixes things up and continues to deliver what players have asked for.
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Oh, yeah? I believe we are all still waiting, ever so patiently, for...
PONY RIDES! And for inspirations to use Hostess Fruit Pie icons for increased verisimilitude and awesomeness.
So there.
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You should read my post again. I agree that Tanks and scrappers "aren't" broken. I never said Tanks and Scrappers were. If anything they are the Uber class for PvP. My point is that the other classes "ARE" broken. If the tanks and scrapps were broken, no one would use them. As it stands, the majority of PvP players are the Tank/Brute or Scrap/Stalk class.
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Mmmmmm no. Quite the opposite actually, in regards to pvp.
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Lol, when he said Early 2009 for I14, hope he meant early. Anxious to make my own Story Arc.
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Have you seen the screenshots on the wiki? It gives enough information that if we wanted, we could start preliminary writing right now (Or sooner, if we'd chose.)
J/ Wilde
Still hate the visit Winscott mission- make it dropable, have it give actual exp or remove it altogether. PS- Down knows who you are.
J/ Wilde/ / AIL - Celebrating five years!